Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by ABabeInChrist, Oct 7, 2014.

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  1. "Proves"? The phrase you are looking for is "I have inferred..."

    If we insist on calling our inferences "proof," we will never be able to read scripture objectively. Instead, we will always try to find a way to force the scriptures to say something we've already concluded.

    Firstly, if we simply believe what's written in the Bible, do we need to be able to rationally explain it? In other words: is it okay for us to simply believe what God tells us about Himself without our needing to completely understand God? Is it okay if comprehension of God is beyond our reach? The scriptures do say that Jesus submitted to the Father. They also state that Jesus is God manifest in flesh. Your brothers and sisters here simply are simply reading what's stated in scripture and believing it. Why shouldn't that be enough?

    Secondly, would you be willing to accept that the inference you've made here is based on certain premises, but that there may be additional premises stated in scripture that may challenge the conclusions you've arrived at? In other words, will you allow yourself to experience doubt in order to objectively hear scriptures that sufficiently answer your question, "If Christ is God then how can he be lower than himself but head of himself at the same time"? If so, then I have some passages I'd like to discuss with you.
  2. They also state that Jesus is God manifest in flesh. I know that this is from 1 Timothy 3:16. And I knew someone would bring this up.

    phaneroofan-er-o'-o from 5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively):--appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).
    this is actually the greek definition for "was manifest" G5319
    All I will say is that yes God manifested meaning spoke through his Son, but that still means that the Father is only God not the Son because God is speaking through his Son and obviously God would direct His Son. He does that same thing to all of us. Manifest still doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

    Anyways I know that believing that God the Father is only God and is eliminating the most popular doctrine that has been through Christian history for a long time, but the Bible is used to prove all things and the only way you can do that is through scripture so that's why what I've been posting through scripture is proof.

    I'd be interested in more verses that you're talking about too.:)
  3. I will talk about some of the other things in your last post, but first let's examine what it actually is that you are arguing.

    You say there is "proof" that Jesus is not God. What is "proof?" What is required before a thing can be said to be proven?

    Your conclusion is not something that is directly stated in scripture, so you must have inferred it from the way you've interpreted other scriptures. What are the premises you have used to infer this conclusion?
  4. how you explain/ interpret the one in red font:

    1 Corinthians 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Christ Crucified
    2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony[a] of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human[b] wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
    Spiritual Wisdom
    6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
    9 But as it is written:
    “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
    Nor have entered into the heart of man
    The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[c]
    10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
    13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ.
  5. Amen my brother.

    Just as a side, IMO Jesus was tempted in a way which was much more difficult than we will ever be. Satan knew who Jesus was and if he could keep Him from the cross there would be no salvation for humanity. For that reason it seems to me would be working harder than he would on me and you. Just a thought!
  6. Well if you look at my other posts I am very clearly giving out scriptural proof that clearly shows Jesus is only the Son of God and that the Father is God. I will give you direct scriptures now proving this.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Very clear.

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. This very clearly shows that Jesus and us have the same God and he is not that God.

    John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. If Christ was God then he can't be greater then himself if you believe in the Trinity.

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth.
    He is given something. If he was God he would've already had authority over heaven and earth. Also if you say he is God then why would Jesus only have power over heaven and earth and not the rest of the universe?!

    Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

    Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

    Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.


    John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. This ties in with my other verse John 14:28 ABOVE THIS SCRIPTURE.

    Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    So this verse clearly shows that God through Peter God tells them exactly who he is. THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. So why wouldn't God also reveal to them that Jesus is God? Because he isn't.

    Also here's my other question to you. Every Trinitarian say the Trinity means 3 persons in one God. This makes absolutely no sense because you all claim that the Father is God and Jesus is God and the Holy Ghost is God. If that's the case you CANNOT SAY 3 PERSONS! YOU ALL CLEARLY STATE ALL 3 ARE GOD SO YOU ULTIMATELY HAVE TO SAY

    Other then that last question you need to show me scriptural proof that these scriptures are wrong even though they are very direct. Here's the Bible's proof so let's see the proof that you are stating that is clear in the Bible.

  7. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Idk if this was for me or not but this shows that the spirit of man which is in all of us understands the struggles, thoughts, feelings, and experiences of other men because we all have it. Like wise with the next verse shows that we cannot understand God and the scriptures without the Spirit of God which is in us.
  8. 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

    Trinitarians I encounter say they can't clearly explain the Trinity because it can be "confusing". If it's confusing to explain this then this verse would be considered not important.
  9. Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.(KJV)

    I think what God is saying here regarding "his redeemer" is that TWO of the aspects of our Godhead are speaking together: 1) the LORD the King of Israel, AND (2) his REDEEMER (meaning the One He chose to redeem US; thereby using the name of Jesus' office of REDEEMER for US, as a way of making the point they are BOTH saying "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." I don't think God is implying that either Himself or Jesus needed a redeemer.

    The Hebrew written language does not use commas, periods, etc. Hence, any punctuation we see in the English is not there in the Hebrew, and can cause confusion as to the right meaning of some verses. And we should recognize that the LORD the King of Israel is calling his redeemer the LORD of hosts here, which proves Godhead divinity of the Redeemer (Jesus). This same statement is echoed in Revelation when Jesus says repeatedly, "...I am...the first and the last..." God also said His name is "I am".
  10. God also said His name is "I am". Lets look at the concordance numbers of both.

    Exo 3:14 And GodH430 saidH559 untoH413 Moses,H4872 I AMH1961 THATH834 I AM:H1961 and he said,H559 ThusH3541 shalt thou sayH559 unto the childrenH1121 of Israel,H3478 I AMH1961 hath sentH7971 me untoH413 you.

    Rev 22:13 IG1473 amG1510 AlphaG1 andG2532 Omega,G5598 the beginningG746 andG2532 the end,G5056 theG3588 firstG4413 andG2532 theG3588 last.G2078

    I AM H1961 Notice how the the I AM is put together in the concordance?
    I G1473 am G1510 and these are seperate.
    They are two different definitions and I AM shows that his name is both of these words combined where as the second is just showing Jesus is only talking about himself in the first person.

    I thought the same thing before as a trinitarian but you have to also look at the true greek and hebrew definitions of the words in the a Bible to understand it even more. You should get E-Sword it's free and is a concordance. Then you can look on the internet for good concordance definition sites that define the numbers that you put in from the concordance from E-Sword. :D

    "his REDEEMER (meaning the One He chose to redeem US; thereby using the name of Jesus' office of REDEEMER for US, as a way of making the point they are BOTH saying"
    1350 ga'al gaw-al' a primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), i.e. to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative's property, marry his widow, etc.):--X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk(-man), purchase, ransom, redeem(-er), revenger.
    The definition shows that God's kinsfolk which is Jesus since he is the Son of God is delivered.
    Isaiah 49:26 "...shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob."
    This shows here that once again God is not only the redeemer for Christ by resurrecting him but also sending Christ as the sacrifice to redeem us from sin and death.
    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    This verse tied in my other verses above it shows that God delivered Jesus From death. Only God the Father could do this. If Christ could do this, this verse would also have to say" believe in thine heart that God, which is Christ, raised himself from the dead. Which would show the clear Trinitarian doctrine.

    If no one is seeing this then I do not know how I can keep showing scripture that proves this and no one from what it sounds like understands this...:(
    And I would like to thank God for using me to me show scripture to prove this. It is only through Him that I can do this.
  11. Everyone please needs to understand that like I said I believed in the Trinity but it always was confusing and then when you see scripture that contradicts it, this cause me to be open minded to the fact that it could be possible that the Trinity is not Biblical. So, I clearly know how Trinitarians think about this but I knew God was telling something wasn't right. And when I got into the word I saw for myself what the truth is. I hope with time that more people can see that this is the truth and hopefully what I have posted so far has planted the seed to help someone see this through scripture. I have found that with looking at scripture now and understanding that Christ is only the Son of God and The Father is God has actually made my relationship with God and Christ understanding now even more how much more it was a big deal that Christ was sacrificed.

    Luke 22:42"Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."
    Knowing that Christ is just the Son of God and imagining this moment where he is crying out to the Father. In my eyes I see a Son who loved His Father so much and in tears pleading to God his Father who he loved with all his heart that no matter how Christ felt because we know Christ had feelings, was still saying if I am supposed to die Father I don't do it for the Glory of myself but to bring Glory to you and obedient to you because I love you... So special and intimate is this moment. Christ loved God so much.
  12. What you have done is started with a belief and found or perverted scripture to support your belief.
    The vast majority of Christians are Trinitarian because that is the truth, like it or not.
    That is what the Bible alludes to and what God has stated, to those who have actually heard Him,
    and not listened to their own musings.
  13. I do believe this thread has reached the usual impasse and nothing further is to be gained.

    So before things get ugly, I will close this thread with thanks to all who participated.
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