Understanding or Judgement - 4:00 Minutes

[MatthewG]

This is a message about understanding or judgement. The impossibility to please others, though we are called to serve others. Thank God for the Lord Yeshua Christ, for when it boils down to it, you are responsible for yourself in your relationship with God, and your relationship with others out here in this world.

Hopefully this gives you something to think about communication, and reassessment of yourself in your own thoughts about these topics.

Feel free to comment and leave a message if you so desire to. Thank you if you do view this, only 4 minutes of your time.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn (gently by the holy spirit) those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else.

16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.​

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19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil.​

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23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.​

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25 Brothers and sisters, pray for us. 26 Greet all God’s people with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers and sisters.​

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28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.​

Romans 8:

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.​

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9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.​

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12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.​

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14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.​

Galatians 5:

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.​

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16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.​

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19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

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22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.​

We as humans are judgmental when it comes down to it though if we live by the spirit - we wont be judgmental instead you will be like that of understanding.

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[Chris1]

You've brought up a topic here, one that is scriptural. My question to you is are you willing to sit and discuss it with me?

I know I'm a stranger, but it may give us all some food for thought, but only if you feel willing to sit and talk with me as a freind.

God bless you - the choice is yours.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Chris, yes please add your thoughts.

 

[Chris1]

Hello Chris, yes please add your thoughts.

I pray to our Heavenly Father that His presence be among us here, and that He use this conversation for His purpose and that in this, we find what God's will for us is. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

As we are only now being introduced, I will tell you upfront, to use the words of Pastor Voddie Baucham: "I choose to believe the Bible because its a reliable collection of historical documents, written down by eye witness during the lifetime of other eye witnesses. They report to us supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies and claim that their writings were divine rather than human in origin." 2 Peter 1:16-21; Luke 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:3-8

And when a person truly believes that, every word found therein has the greater import, and must also be believed. In thes pages we find:

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17

There's no expiration date on this Book. It is sufficient to teach the lost how to enter into covenant with God, how to be saved from the wrath of God on the day all men will be judged, it is sufficient to teach us how to live a Christian life, and what to do if we find ourselves falling short of the example of perfection we find therein. It is sufficient to teach us how to interact with our brethren in the faith, and how to stay on the path of righteousness. It's sufficient when it warns us of the dangers of going astray, and how to keep our faith secure when false teachers speak lies in Gods most Holy Name. It is sufficient to teach us how to correct others, should we see their faith suffering under the burden of falsehood.

It is simply sufficient for everything. And it tells us in no uncertain terms that it is.

SO, It's nice to meet you MatthewG - I'm Chris.

That's my little introduction so you'll know where I'm coming from. Like Voddie Baucham, I have a varied background and have only been saved 6+ years now.

Let's get to the discussion at hand. Your assertion is that "people" are generally judgmental. By and large they are, I do agree. People often judge others in our society - but most aren't doing that judging from a heart of God, with a mind toward righteousness. Most people aren't saved, and don't know God at all, that includes even some who sit in pews every Sunday.

Many Christians have memorized the verse which says "judge not, lest ye be judged" (Matthew 7:1) and conveniently ignore the rest. Like Pastor Baucham once said in a sermon, there's an Eleventh unwritten commandment infecting the church today, and that's "be nice".

But what the Bible goes onto say is this:

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." Matthew 7:2-5

So as we can see, Jesus isn't prohibiting us from judging altogether, aka trying to correct the understanding of another when we see them in error - Hes telling us that we can't judge anothers error when we ourselves are in a state of hypocrisy.

From experience, it's difficult to know when your running around with a plank the size of the Titanic in your eye. I once found myself a righteous woman in my own eyes, what God wouldn't forgive me my minute sins? (Haha) It took God bringing me to my knees for me to see myself, and God, in the same light as they exist in reality. I was once blind, but now I see.

I still have a few specks, (don't we all to one degree or another?) so I can only pray there aren't planks these days, and for God to show me if they do happen to be. Hopefully my brethren in the faith can help me out if they are.

That said, the day I rejoined discussion here after 6 years gone I asked you a question, what is love to you? How do you define it? Are you defining it Biblically and in accordance with sound doctrine?

Or... are you mistaking love for judgement, and asking others to practice the new social etiquette of "thou shalt be nice" some Christians newest 11th commandment, more important than any other in their eyes?

^^^ 5-1/2 minutes of time.

So first I must ask, how are you defining love? How are you defining judgment in the negative?

Do you understand we have, as Christians an obligation to watch out for one another, in love? To make certain our brethren aren't running headlong over a cliff?

We must clear that air, before going on in discussion.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Chris,

Okay, So you enjoy listening a man named Pastor Voddie Baucham - He believe in the bible because it is a reliable source of historical documents, and written down by eye witness -

For me also enjoy listening to a man named Shawn Mcranny who believes the same thing - from Heart of the Matter on youtube. He was amazed at how the disciples went and continued in faith, and died for the Lord Yeshua, and believing in God.​

Believe that the bible is historical, and is a gift from God that can be referenced and can increase the faith of people who make the choice - when hearing the truth - to believe on the Lord Yeshua Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 is one of the greatest scriptures of all time that is used today to make the word of God a weapon that slashes peoples throats if they are off one kilter of a margin from the standards that were written to Timothy to follow and to instruct the people there of wherever he is going. To encourage them to stay in faith and trust in God and understand that the wrath of God was coming.

In a contextual sense no there is no expiration date to this book however it is a letter written to Timothy in that day. It most certainly is a true one, however no man has authority over a persons faith and how they decide for themselves to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

(2 Corinthians 1:23-24) - The purpose of sharing God's word is to bring faith and encourage people to stay firm in their belief but however not to have lordship over a persons faith.

It is a faith that is between them and God not between anyone else, and believe that is very important to understand. You can share the truths with people that are seen in scripture when sharing the bible with them be even all the sins we commit as humans for we are all ungodly and are in need of a saviour.

The man Voddie is not perfect and has problems, and so does the man Shawn Mcranny. (Even That man who passed away Robbie Zacharias... ) He is a man we are all men none of us will ever be righteous like the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is important to understand that though -​

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Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God, though we still have problems and not everyone is the same nor ever will be the same nor perfect.​

In saying all of this you do have a God who is able to help you overcome temptations to overcome your heart that is plagued with - guilt, shame, doubt, fears, anxieties, hatred, slander, theft, disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and contentions. - Everyone has something wrong with them that is why we look and have faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 7:7 Judge and you be not judged, then you share a few more scriptures afterwards.

So this is what Yeshua Christ is teaching us.​

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How can you tell someone to straighten up, when you yourself can not straighten up. If you are not being loving, how can you tell someone else to be loving? If you are being hateful, how are you to tell someone to not be hateful. If you are telling someone not be jealous, yet you are jealous, you are being a hypocrite.​

​

We are all imperfect and the only solution is to allow God to pull the planks out of our eyes, so we can share the truth of God in that he is love, that he does care, that he does listen to our prayers, that the Lord Yeshua Christ is with us, and that we are forgiven even our messy faults, that nothing can separate you from Gods love by your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, that Gods grace really is sufficient enough. That God can help us in temptations but we are all going to make mistakes and have our faith tested we also suffer on the partaking of living for Christ Jesus as well. (All scriptural)​

Hopefully this will help you understand when you are having a plank in your eye.

What is love to me personally : It is when a person is living by the spirit : Love is not rude, it is not boastful, it does not curse other (wish death upon them or misfortune), it does not rejoice in injustice (the actions of others when ever they have done something wrong to others), but rejoices when truth wins out.

You see, for me am still a man who has thorns in his sides: Am not perfect, and have problems, anyone who says they do not are just not truthful or they do not realize it. There things that are done now in my own life like dabbling into worldly rotten music that is enjoyed sometimes not always. Sometimes I can get angry very easily depending on what it is over (The other day someone threw away my drinking cup, and it straight up pissed me off, but looking toward God said it something minor Lord it is okay, ill get a different cup to hold my water.)​

Let me tell you a story when was younger.

Was about 18 years old, telling a another grown man who lifted weights what he should do about his marriage problems - (never knew God in my life until 26) - he told me to come over to his trailer and say it to his face.​

​

Now walking over there, getting to the door and knocking, am greeted by a nice shirt pull inward and slinging to the couch, where the man wailed on me then stopped after thinking he had killed me.​

​

After this got up off the couch, and went back home and cried.​

​

Now if you ask me what happened after this fact. Forgave him, we did not hang out as much as we use to but still talked afterwards.​

​

This is a definition of love, that comes from forgiveness and also is a story about how not to run your mouth when someone is stressed out about life and does not know how to deal with it.​

​

If I could go back now, would share and read the gospel with him and just let God work on his heart.

Now these types of traumas are literally EVERYWHERE, from abuse in the homes, abuse as a child, neglect, loneliness, drug issues, pornography issues, life still exist outside of the bible and stories waiting to be heard.

Hopefully you understand more now than originally.

 

[Chris1]

Hello Chris,

Okay, So you enjoy listening a man named Pastor Voddie Baucham - He believe in the bible because it is a reliable source of historical documents, and written down by eye witness -

For me also enjoy listening to a man named Shawn Mcranny who believes the same thing - from Heart of the Matter on youtube. He was amazed at how the disciples went and continued in faith, and died for the Lord Yeshua, and believing in God.​

Believe that the bible is historical, and is a gift from God that can be referenced and can increase the faith of people who make the choice - when hearing the truth - to believe on the Lord Yeshua Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 is one of the greatest scriptures of all time that is used today to make the word of God a weapon that slashes peoples throats if they are off one kilter of a margin from the standards that were written to Timothy to follow and to instruct the people there of wherever he is going. To encourage them to stay in faith and trust in God and understand that the wrath of God was coming.

In a contextual sense no there is no expiration date to this book however it is a letter written to Timothy in that day. It most certainly is a true one, however no man has authority over a persons faith and how they decide for themselves to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

(2 Corinthians 1:23-24) - The purpose of sharing God's word is to bring faith and encourage people to stay firm in their belief but however not to have lordship over a persons faith.

It is a faith that is between them and God not between anyone else, and believe that is very important to understand. You can share the truths with people that are seen in scripture when sharing the bible with them be even all the sins we commit as humans for we are all ungodly and are in need of a saviour.

The man Voddie is not perfect and has problems, and so does the man Shawn Mcranny. (Even That man who passed away Robbie Zacharias... ) He is a man we are all men none of us will ever be righteous like the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is important to understand that though -​

​

Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God, though we still have problems and not everyone is the same nor ever will be the same nor perfect.​

In saying all of this you do have a God who is able to help you overcome temptations to overcome your heart that is plagued with - guilt, shame, doubt, fears, anxieties, hatred, slander, theft, disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and contentions. - Everyone has something wrong with them that is why we look and have faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 7:7 Judge and you be not judged, then you share a few more scriptures afterwards.

So this is what Yeshua Christ is teaching us.​

​

How can you tell someone to straighten up, when you yourself can not straighten up. If you are not being loving, how can you tell someone else to be loving? If you are being hateful, how are you to tell someone to not be hateful. If you are telling someone not be jealous, yet you are jealous, you are being a hypocrite.​

​

We are all imperfect and the only solution is to allow God to pull the planks out of our eyes, so we can share the truth of God in that he is love, that he does care, that he does listen to our prayers, that the Lord Yeshua Christ is with us, and that we are forgiven even our messy faults, that nothing can separate you from Gods love by your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, that Gods grace really is sufficient enough. That God can help us in temptations but we are all going to make mistakes and have our faith tested we also suffer on the partaking of living for Christ Jesus as well. (All scriptural)​

Hopefully this will help you understand when you are having a plank in your eye.

What is love to me personally : It is when a person is living by the spirit : Love is not rude, it is not boastful, it does not curse other (wish death upon them or misfortune), it does not rejoice in injustice (the actions of others when ever they have done something wrong to others), but rejoices when truth wins out.

You see, for me am still a man who has thorns in his sides: Am not perfect, and have problems, anyone who says they do not are just not truthful or they do not realize it. There things that are done now in my own life like dabbling into worldly rotten music that is enjoyed sometimes not always. Sometimes I can get angry very easily depending on what it is over (The other day someone threw away my drinking cup, and it straight up pissed me off, but looking toward God said it something minor Lord it is okay, ill get a different cup to hold my water.)​

Let me tell you a story when was younger.

Was about 18 years old, telling a another grown man who lifted weights what he should do about his marriage problems - (never knew God in my life until 26) - he told me to come over to his trailer and say it to his face.​

​

Now walking over there, getting to the door and knocking, am greeted by a nice shirt pull inward and slinging to the couch, where the man wailed on me then stopped after thinking he had killed me.​

​

After this got up off the couch, and went back home and cried.​

​

Now if you ask me what happened after this fact. Forgave him, we did not hang out as much as we use to but still talked afterwards.​

​

This is a definition of love, that comes from forgiveness and also is a story about how not to run your mouth when someone is stressed out about life and does not know how to deal with it.​

​

If I could go back now, would share and read the gospel with him and just let God work on his heart.

Now these types of traumas are literally EVERYWHERE, from abuse in the homes, abuse as a child, neglect, loneliness, drug issues, pornography issues, life still exist outside of the bible and stories waiting to be heard.

Hopefully you understand more now than originally.

Anytime I think through and pray through responses such as this it takes more time, and in such discussions I feel taking the time for a thoughtful response is best.

That is just to inform you I'm not ignoring you, but it will be somewhat later before I reply

Love in Christ, and God bless you.

 

[Chris1]

Believe that the bible is historical, and is a gift from God that can be referenced and can increase the faith of people who make the choice - when hearing the truth - to believe on the Lord Yeshua Christ.

To clarify: does this mean that you don't see the Scriptures as being of divine origin, and therefore inerrant, or that you do see it as divine in origin?

As far as the pastor you enjoy learning under when using online study resources, are you referring to the "pastor" whose name is spelled Shawn McCraney, that was thrust into a television and online "ministry" after only visiting a Christian church 5 times and as such, ended up carrying with him such LDS doctrine like the denial of basic Biblical doctrines like the Trinitarian nature of God, etc?

That one?

 

[MatthewG]

Haha. Yes Chris1.

The bible scriptures were written by spirit led men, from the first century who wrote the gospels, and also wrote the letters of the new testament, as well as the prophets of old that bear the old testament.

Shawn; He has taught me the scriptures for the past 4 years now. So, have known a lot about him already and also watched him change over the years. Do not hold him in a man in high regard yet though a man that is respected.

For Christ Jesus is the only one to hold in the most highest regard always. For men are fallible even shawn, even everyone on this website for no one is perfect. And if anything we are called to live at peace with all people.

Romans 12:18 Do all that you can to live in peace with everyone.

Why do you ask?

 

[Chris1]

Why do you ask?

I looked him up to see, since you claimed that you learn from him, and wanted to make sure who I found was the same person since you spelled his name differently.

Who you respect as teacher and pastor says a lot about what you believe personally, since these men are who you learn from.

For me its been pastors like Dr. Voddie Baucham, Pastor Paul Washer for the more famous pastors. The systematic theology book I drew nearest to was Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology. Books I found to be Biblical that I would recommend to others would be books like Jesus and Israel: One Covenant or Two? By David Holwerda among others.

In knowing this list, it would tell you a lot about the doctrines I believe even without my telling you anything else.

So things like this are good to know, as then you know more about someone, and from where they are coming from when they speak of the Christian faith.

 

[MatthewG]

That is very subjective.

If you ask me what it is that is cared about in the faith that is had; Love of God, and Love of Others.

You can always assume to know.

What is it you care about in the faith?

For I have no idea of anything about you. It is the worst thing to ever do is assume anything.

I do not read other biblical books all the much aside from the bible itself. Do watch video games be played on youtube, and listen to music on spotify, and also like go on walks, and enjoy going to work.

 

[Chris1]

That is very subjective.

It's objective, actually, because while being an indirect means of knowing and not exacting, it says a lot more than you would think.

I was, for example, reading an online article criticizing Grudem's stance on justification last night, specifically of Grudem's position that justification is in Christ alone, but that true faith works (to one degree or another), which is one I happen to agree with.

Not only is this teaching all over Scripture (a blend of Paul and James in harmony) but it's held by every single teacher I hold in high regard.

How much do we choose teachers we agree with in the first place? (2 Timothy 2:4)

And how much of what we believe is a natural outgrowth of exposure to criticism (Proverbs 27:17)

And how much is from our own independent study of Scriptures?

I may hear out people who have many different things to say about the Christian faith, but I don't relax and learn under anyone who I see to teach that which is unpleasing to God and/or contrary to His nature and His word. Most people are similar.

Small disagreements here and there are notwithstanding, but whether or not a teacher is Christian in the first place is no point of small disagreement, that's a question of whether this person has been given authority from God to sit in the seat as teacher to begin with... a major consideration and major difference, not a minute detail upon which we may disagree.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4

If I've neither seen a pot, nor witnessed a pot being made, am I going to be equipped to teach classes on pot making?

If you ask me what it is that is cared about in the faith

What you care about most is what is subjective. I care about pleasing God, but if I believe it's pleasing to God to stay drunk 24/7 then I might not be doing actions that are in reality pleasing to God, who is real, and who has communicated to us how to please Him in a manner we can reference that is also objective and outside of the consideration of self and feelings.

 

[MatthewG]

Okay.

 

[Garee]

This is a message about understanding or judgement. The impossibility to please others, though we are called to serve others. Thank God for the Lord Yeshua Christ, for when it boils down to it, you are responsible for yourself in your relationship with God, and your relationship with others out here in this world.

I would offer. If a person would look to the doctrine of the “spirit of judgment “ . I would think the Spirit (the just and justifier) gives us His understanding of His justice. I don't think they can be seperated.

All things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) The faith of Christ that works in us . . Not of us. Not the imagination of ones fleshly mind as no faith.

We are accredited with little faith as armor. He is the rear guard; we can defend the faith which works in us like armor. Remember all of mankind begins with no faith that could please the living word of as it is written. A new born again faith by which we can believe. He must increase as we decrease.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Garee,

That is a very interesting take on it. What is the doctrine of spirit of judgement?

Does that mean as of having the holy spirit inside of you through your faith making a choice to follow God and Love Him, works inside of you by that of condemnation when you make mistakes in your life?

The way looking at the holy spirit in (chastising) a believers life is liken to a utterance of shock that if the spirit has left you, yet God is still with you just now you are experiencing chastising from God.

 

[Garee]

Hello Garee,

That is a very interesting take on it. What is the doctrine of spirit of judgement?

Does that mean as of having the holy spirit inside of you through your faith making a choice to follow God and Love Him, works inside of you by that of condemnation when you make mistakes in your life?

The way looking at the holy spirit in (chastising) a believers life is liken to a utterance of shock that if the spirit has left you, yet God is still with you just now you are experiencing chastising from God.

I think of it more . . chastising .through his work of faith, a labor of his love . . the power by which we can believe Him not seen and move. (Philippians 2: 13) we have the treasure of that power in us but is not of us . . .we remain powerless of our own selves in a living hope on a new incoruptible body .

I would suggest when looking as the doctrine of what I would call “spirit of judgment”.

God uses "tribes" in parables in diferent ways to teach us how to walk by faith . Using the tribe of Dan to represent that according to the letter of law (death) you shall surely die and never to rise to new sprit life. The Spirit of Judgment

Dan representing the spirit of judgment is reckoned by a serpent or addler used to represent false prophecy, false apostles it biting the heal of a high hourse used to represent power . Falling backward as in breaking one neck or hanging is used in the same way. . . fall backwards slain in the sprit A metaphor that speaks of the un-converted, un-redeemed faithless mankind .

That tribe is omitted from the description of the bride Christ in Revelation. It the letter of law (death) will not enter the new order and condemn another whole creation. Not one jot or tittle will be removed until the last day under the Sun.

Genesis 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

God uses "tribes" in parables to teach us how to walk by faith . Using the tribe of Dan to represent that according to the letter of law (death) you shall surely die never to rise to new sprit life.

It is shown doing its working of judgemt in a few place throughout the Bible .It one of those a person can keep on the back burner, slow cooking. for us slow learners.