So can we infer
that the rapture is a resurrection, a clothing with a new body,
as in a physical body, because when we are dead we are like the angels with a spiritual existence in the presence of the Lord
but not with new bodies?
U Die Then Go? Where?
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that the rapture is a resurrection, a clothing with a new body,
as in a physical body, because when we are dead we are like the angels with a spiritual existence in the presence of the Lord
but not with new bodies?
The way I read it, when both the righteous and the wicked die, the Breath of Life (aka Spirit) returns to God and their bodies return to the earth and the separation of these two components causes these Living Souls to cease to exist, for Genesis 2:7 says a Living Soul can only exist when these two are combined. Therefore, Paul is not anywhere at the moment.
In the First Resurrection, God will breath the Breath of Life into Immortal Bodies that He will provide for Paul and the rest of His people and they will once again become Living Souls never again to experience death.
In the Second Resurrection, God will breath the Breath of Life into Mortal Bodies that He will prepare for the lost so that they will once again become Living Souls which rise to a Second Life and stand in judgment, are sentenced, and then suffer the Second Death in the Lake of Fire where the Breath of Life will once again return to God, their bodies will dissolve into ashes which will return to the earth to be trampled down by the righteous, and they will once again pass out of existence, eternally separated from God in death; a death from which there will be no resurrection.
Henceforth, "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
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and I would like to be able to fly, with wings or without.
Except we are now spirit beings born of God, His sons, partakers of the Divine nature....death has no more power over us only our bodies...Jesus tells us "Truly, truly, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, HAS eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS passed from death unto life."
My dear brother, I am reluctant to accept that the saved are presently immortal "spirit beings" that inhabit mortal bodies, from which we depart at death and immediately appear in heaven with Jesus, because the Bible says:
- God only hath immortality (1 Timothy 6:16)
- the saved are presently seeking immortality which will make them future recipients of immortality (Romans 2:6,7)
The problem here is that Rom 2:6,7 is peaking about those seeking salvation, not those who ARE saved (you have confused the two groups IMHO)....one is not saved by saying some sinners prayer or submitting to a bath...therefore there are many who.think they are saved because someone said so...(remember the five unwise virgins...in the church but not saved...no Holy Spirit) but those who are saved have their lamps full of oil and have trimmed their wicks. God has sealed them with the Spirit until the day of redemption. They are in Christ (and He cannot be condemned)
With "glorified" bodies.
Brother Paul if both the saved and the unsaved have consciousness after death and after judgement; doesn't this mean death has no power over both the saved and the unsaved ?
Only if one interprets death as the cessation of existence...which biblically it is not.
Which death are YOU referring to? Physical separation of the soul/person from the body or eternal separation of the soul/person from God? The first death has an effect on both (they no longer are existing in the temporal realm) the unsaved still go to their section of Sheol/Hades, the saved go directly into the presence of the Lord until we return with Him at the parousia. The "second death" (which occurs at the judgment) certainly has eternal consequence which differs for the saved as opposed to the unsaved forever.
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I'm refering to either death. Both continue to live forever in your opinion right ?
Wow, I have to admit that one sorta took me by surprise! But, this passage of Romans 2 reveals a very important point about the the group that is to receive immortality: Verse 7 says they are engaged in "well doing" and verse 10 says they "worketh good". However, only those who have been previously saved are capable of doing well and of good work:
- "For the carnal mind is enmity with God. It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7
- "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works." Ephesians 2:10
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Yes! Some with Christ (in heaven or on the new earth) and the others where John called it gehenna...
Wow, I have to admit that one sorta took me by surprise! But, this passage of Romans 2reveals a very important point about the the group that is to receive immortality: Verse 7 says they are engaged in "well doing" and verse 10 says they "worketh good". However, only those who have been previously saved are capable of doing well and of good work...
There are many good works, even the evil ones can do good to those they love, even atheists can give to the poor, house the homeless, etc.,...but here is the difference (the clue) these were "doing well" in an attempt to obtain immortality (eternal life), but it cannot be obtained by doing good works...the good works that count are those produced by the Spirit in the children of faith (Ephesians 2:10) who already have it...
We are not saved by ourselves nor by any works of righteousness that we do...we are saved by grace through faith. But if we are saved (have already "eternal life" which does not ever cease as opposed to eternal death which is conscious separation from God and all He would provide forever) we will produce much fruit (Matthew 25) for the kingdom....
"Eternal life" does not speak to continuous existence alone, it is sharing in God's life, being a child of God (a real eternal spirit being with a glorified body, Him really being our ABBA our Dad). Even those who are in hell will endure continued conscious existence (the second death) but ever without order to cool the fires of chaos, ever without touch, or fellowship with even one other, all their soulish desires burning but never even a drop of water...and all because the rejected God and did not believe God....
There are many good works, even the evil ones can do good to those they love, even atheists can give to the poor, house the homeless, etc.,...but here is the difference (the clue) these were "doing well" in an attempt to obtain immortality (eternal life), but it cannot be obtained by doing good works...the good works that count are those produced by the Spirit in the children of faith (Ephesians 2:10) who already have it...
We are not saved by ourselves nor by any works of righteousness that we do...we are saved by grace through faith. But if we are saved (have already "eternal life" which does not ever cease as opposed to eternal death which is conscious separation from God and all He would provide forever) we will produce much fruit (Matthew 25) for the kingdom....
"Eternal life" does not speak to continuous existence alone, it is sharing in God's life, being a child of God (a real eternal spirit being with a glorified body, Him really being our ABBA our Dad). Even those who are in hell will endure continued conscious existence (the second death) but ever without order to cool the fires of chaos, ever without touch, or fellowship with even one other, all their soulish desires burning but never even a drop of water...and all because the rejected God and did not believe God....
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Ok thanks Brother Paul. This being the case do you suggest immortality only relates to the saved or do the unsaved also seek immortality ?
Rom 2:7 NIV To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Do you apply the same definition to immortality ?
Pro 12:28 NIV In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality.
My dear brother, what Bible are you reading? God does not recognize the deeds of atheists or evil ones as "good" or "well":
- "Can an evil tree bring forth good fruit?"
- "Whatsoever that is without faith is sin"
- "Can any clean thing come from an unclean?"
- "The carnal mind is enmity with God. It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
- "All our righteousness (right and well doing) is as filthy rags."
Correct! Hang in there brother. You are on solid Biblical ground.
If the wicked lost do not live forever in the lake of fire, then at least two Bible verses need to be removed from the Bible.
Rev. 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and false prophet ARE, and shall be TORMENTED (past tense) day and night forever and ever".
20:14....(After the Great White Throne judgment of the wicked lost)
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".
Actually what you said here does not contradict where I have been going with this at all, in fact, it confirms it. By no works of righteousness of our own have we been saved, but in His mercy....(Titus 3:3-8)....see how God calls these filthy rags by the same term (in Hebrew it is Tzedakah...good works, works of righteousness OF OUR OWN)....therefore all our good works cannot and do not earn us what is elsewhere called "eternal life"...it is the GIFT of God based on what Christ did not on what you do...but God can see the striving and the desire of this fallen man (when such a man strives and so desires) and perhaps it is these who He foreknows will respond appropriately when He initiates (by grace) the offer to come to Christ. I cannot however speak for God for His ways are higher than our ways....
You see brother (and I believe this is coming in from the Holy Spirit) many doctrinal understandings laid out in the Bible present themselves like unto two sides of a single coin (predestination and free will, faith and works, for two examples)....now when one does not take them all from both sides to be equally part of the truth and only emphasizes one side they can miss the greater truth that encompasses them both. The bottom line is that we KNOW we are not worthy and nothing we can do after we have sinned (and all have sinned) can merit, earn, or deserve, His free gift IN CHRIST. All else is commentary or arguments over the fine details involved. Now I am not saying this is not healthy for as they say Iron sharpens Iron and we all learn and grow fro such discussion, but if one set of passages (taken as separate from the whole council of God on a matter) is set against the other set of seemingly opposing passages, then that would mean the others are not also true and thus part of the scriptures are either a lie or are unreliable (God forbid!). We see this with passages like when God says "Choose" and suggests they choose life, are not the "totally incapable of choosing" camp in error? Does God not know what He is talking about? Does He make false promises? And if so can we trust any of the other promises?
Amen brother...but they are also true aren't they, and cannot be removed or else no one can trust the word of God is actually God breathed and that leads to eliminating a whole slew of others and the whole of "faith" is a lark. For now each can pick and choose what fits their belief not knowing for sure which are true and which are false.
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