U Die Then Go? Where?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by THALLON, Sep 4, 2014.

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  1. If u die, do Christians and non Christians go to different physical locations?
    So Christians are going to heaven?
    so really for them there is no rapture? only a ressurrection on the judgement day?
    Are non Christians then going to ....?
    I get confused by the different names for where you actually go when you die,
    purgatory, does that even exist?
    sheol, is that just purgatory with a different name?
    hell, is that gehenna or the lake of fire with a different name?
    lake of fire..
    Nobody goes into the lake of fire till the judgement day.
    So, nobody is in hell?
  2. When people die they go to Hades, or the place of the dead. In Hades there is both paradise and torment. Christians go to paradise and non-Christians go to torment. Then on judgement day everyone is resurrected and death and hades is thrown into hell.

    At least I think...
  3. Check out the book "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn....
  4. no, I want you to tell me.
  5. Many don't believe in the rapture, but here's my understanding according to the word of God.

    Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Christians, their soul with their spirit go to heaven, and the body turns back into dust. The lost's spirit returns to the Lord, their body to dust and their soul into hell. In the rapture, Paul says the dead in Christ rise first THEN those still alive get raptured and they all get a new body. The dead non-Christians stay there until the White Throne Judgement after the 1000 year-reign of Christ. After the White Throne Judgment those lost and dead will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
    Major likes this.
  6. This is the way I understand it.

    Paradise / Abrahams bosom = waiting place for heaven / Jesus's resurrection.

    Sheol, Hades, Gehenna = waiting place for white throne judgment / hell / lake of fire.
    Lake of fire = hell.

    Purgatory is a Catholic belief derived chiefly from the Maccabees. A place many en route to heaven go to for purification.
    Major likes this.
  7. This is an interesting idea
    except about the Rapture paul says those who sleep, the dead in Christ, will be last and the last first,
    so the rapture is a specific point in time.
    I don't think the context of being absent allows for being with the Lord?
  8. Ok.
  9. #9 Phoneman777, Sep 7, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
    Yes they both go to the same place: the "grave" or "place of the dead" where they unconsciously await the resurrection of life or damnation. The righteous don't go to immediately to heaven because "the dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence". The wicked don't go immediately to hellfire because "the Lord knoweth how to ...reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." Job says that after a man dies "his sons come to honor and he knoweth it not. They are brought low and he perceiveth it not of them." Solomon says that "the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything. Neither have they any more a reward for the memory of them is forgotten...Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might, for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge nor wisdom in the grave wither thou goest." David said "Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction (decomposition)? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Plenty of verses that teach unconsciousness in death, but for some reason they are set aside in favor of the four or five "proof texts" that are used to teach otherwise, which encourages spiritualism instead of the truth of demonic impersonation of departed loved ones.
    Huntingteckel likes this.
  10. Paul doesn't say "absent from the body is to be present" which demands an immediate change of locale after death. He says "absent from the body and present" which demands no such immediacy and allows for an undetermined time period between the earthly and heavenly locale. Since the context of the passage speaks of being clothed with an earthly body followed by being clothed with a heavenly body, the intermediate naked state refers to the period in which the unconscious dead await without a body in the grave (in agreement with Job) until the coming of Jesus; a period which Paul desires to skip over and go and immediately be with Jesus at death, but at the same time is resigned to the fact that this is not the case: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (which blows along with the Lord's shout and the voice of the archangel at Jesus' descent). For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. For (then) this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality." He in no way expected to receive such a body one second before Jesus comes back and certainly not immediately at his death.
    Huntingteckel likes this.
  11. It has always been my understanding from the Bible that the dead who are saved, their spirit goes to be with the Lord at death. There body is placed into the grave. At the Rapture, that believers body is resurrected just as was the body of Jesus and then it is reunited with its spirit and then glorified.
  12. Paul says to be absent from the body, which is saying dead, is in the next moment to be “present with the Lord.” In 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 Paul wrote that, “We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord…and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” IMHO, I see nowhere in this text where there is a time differential between death and being in the presence of the Lord.
  13. #13 Phoneman777, Sep 7, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
    The Greeks believed that the body was just a shell in which the "soul" inhabits and at death when the shell drops off, the "soul" is released to fly off somewhere. It has carried over into Christianity thanks to Catholicism, a belief which Luther and many others rejected. They taught the Biblical idea that the Breath of Life (Spirit) and the Soul are two separate things, where the former is the "life giving principle" of God which animates dead matter and the Soul exists as a "whole" when the two components, Body and Breath, are combined. They taught Genesis 2:7!

    "God formed man of Dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and man became a Living Soul. It is so important to understand that Adam was not given a "soul" - but that Adam became a Soul just as in the case of any soul, be it man or beast, according to Genesis and Ecclesiastes.

    Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul
    Light Bulb + Electric current = Light

    The reverse happens at death: "And so the Dust shall return to earth as it was and the Spirit (whether of the righteous or the wicked) shall return to God who gave it" and the Soul "passes away" out of existence (death).

    Body - Breath = No Living Soul
    Light Bulb - Electric current = No Light

    Adam, you, or me did not pre-exist in heaven, we have never been in heaven, so we cannot return to heaven when we die any more than we can return to the moon or any other celestial body. Only that which came from heaven, the Breath of Life, can return to heaven when we die.

    In the resurrection of both Life and Damnation, the Righteous and the Wicked are made alive once again by the recombination of Body and Breath, with the Righteous receiving glorious, immortal bodies, while the Wicked receive only mortal bodies that are once again subject to the death they will soon suffer - the Second Death. These wretches are judged and sentenced and then pass out of existence from the presence of God for all eternity, while we enjoy eternal joys with Him.
    I'm happy to address any "proof texts" that are used as an attempt to support the pagan idea of the state of the dead, such as "The Rich Man and Lazarus" or 2 Corinthians 5 if you like.
  14. #14 Phoneman777, Sep 7, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
    Sorry, but Paul did not say that "the next moment" is when the dead are with God, that is your conclusion, because you are ignoring the third state Paul speaks of: being naked and unclothed. He spoke of this "naked state" between the earthly body and the glorious body where we are without a body (in the grave) - a state which he says we groan with desire to bypass and go to be with God in our glorious body. If we go straight to God at death, then why does Paul say we groan with desire to not be without a body and naked? Why would he, or any Christian, give a care about that if we're immediately in heaven at death? Because Paul knew what Job said - that he would be in the grave where his body would be eaten of worms as he waited for the 7 last plagues of wrath to pass after which Jesus would call upon him to rise with new, glorious flesh and be with Him.

    Verse 4 "For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

    Verse 6 is simply stating that the Spirit by faith gives us confidence in the promise that one day we'll be with Him, though we are absent from Him now in this earthly body.
  15. I agree with Phoneman777.
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  16. Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    EEph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    ph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

    What are we waiting for? nothing! It is impossible to be in Christ and not be where he is.
    Major likes this.
  17. It is interesting to note that the Sadducees does not believe in afterlife…. and yet seems the Pharisees were reprimanded more than the Sadducees?

    1. They were extremely self-sufficient to the point of denying God's involvement in everyday life.
    2. They denied any resurrection of the dead (
    Matthew 22:23; Mark 12:18-27; Acts 23:8).
    3. They denied any afterlife, holding that the soul perished at death, and therefore denying any penalty or reward after the earthly life.
    4. They denied the existence of a spiritual world, i.e., angels and demons (
    Acts 23:8).

    Also, I think the moral of the story is usually at end...that is: what is more important to learn...

    Luke 16:19-31New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Rich Man and Lazarus
    19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
    27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
  18. #18 CCW95A, Sep 7, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
    When a person receives Jesus as their saviour they are immediately transferred into the Kingdom of God, sitting on the right hand of God. When a person physically dies their body goes into the ground but their spirit stays where is has always been in Christ in Heaven. The only thing the Church is waiting for is to get a supernatural body when Jesus returns. We might not be experiencing this Heavenly Kingdom in which we have been translated into, and that is only because we simply do not believe it.
  19. Yes, that's why those that die in Christ are said to be "asleep in Jesus" as they await with Job for the resurrection.
  20. According to Job, the spirit of a person which was breathed into his body by God so that these two combined components produce the whole which is a living soul (Gen. 2:7), is spoken of by Job as being "in my nostrils", and no where in the Bible is it said to transfer into heaven with Jesus upon one's conversion. Paul's use of phrases like "translated into the kingdom" and "seated in heavenly places" are meant to convey to us the reality that we have gained new citizenship of a kingdom through whose gates we are yet to enter and nothing more if we just stick with the plain words of Scripture.
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