Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by jbbaab44, Feb 1, 2007.
To tithe or not to tithe
what's everyone's thoughts on tithing?
The Federal Government should require that all residents of the United States donate 10% of their total income to a religious organization.
Humans are not ethical by nature. Even many of those who follow Christ seek to distort his word. The result is religious violence and intolerance. We must force morality upon society, or society will force immorality upon us.
I don't attend organized church, but I am saving up money for my mission for the Lord.
I am sorry but I just don't trust organized church so I cannot recommend anyone to tithe to the churches. We can always spend the money for godly cause for the Lord.
The Bible is very clear about not forsaking our assemblage together, and even more clear about tithing. I have never heard of any scripture that allows us to ignore those tenants. Failing to tithe is theft from God.
Jesus says, any two or three gathered in My name, there I will be.
Tithing is for the Lord. As long as we offer it to the Lord for His purpose it is accomplishing what it is meant to. Why are you being so legalistic about it?
Where does the Bible say this? Where does it say that as long as you use the money how you see fit to serve the kingdom that it is "OK"? Though...I think it's funny that you call ME legalistic, I doubt there are many that know me that would agree with your assessment.
I am sure you can look them up.
And once again, Joyful picks and chooses what she wants to believe and adhere to in the Bible. How convenient.
*sigh* That didn't even remotely answer my question, so I'll put it out there for everyone. Anyone find justification anywhere in scripture for not titheing?
good day to you too, steve
It is commonly understood that you tithe where you are 'fed'. That scriptural anecdote means that if you are taught by a church and you discern that the teachings are proper, that you should support them to keep The Word coming your way. However, if you are not 'fed' properly, you will spiritually starve and no tithing should be required.
I'd just like to mention that my Ministry does NOT accept tithes, freewill gifts, contributions, donations or reimbursements from anyone at any time or under any circumstances. We finance our Ministry out of pocket and our Chaplain Responder team does the same. Our Ministry and our Chaplain Responder Services are a GIFT from us to those who need spiritual assistance and we are proud to do things this way.
Those so called 'preachers' that you see on TV who have made a business out of 'selling' religion are among those who will be judged first by Our Father. Judgement starts at the Pulpit *(1) and those who use religion for the collecting of huge sums of money to make their $50 million dollar 'cathedrals' are nothing more than slick talking con artists. Their book deals, TV specials and speaking appearances at $100,000 fee per session are their way to monitary 'salvation' here on earth. Our Father may have something to say about their eternal salvation in His Kingdom...
*(1) - REF: 1 Peter 4:17 (KJV)
I would think that if you are not being fed, you would then move on to another place where you are. Surely not evey Christian on the planet is fake. So there must be some reality out there somewhere.
Sorry, Sylvanus, I wasn't actually referring to your post, sorry for the confusion there.
While the tithe is clearly commanded of YHVH in numerous places, you'd be severely hard pressed to find him taking back his words. Not only was this commanded of the early Israelites (the nation of which you are now citizens), but it was upheld by Yeshua while here on earth teaching us as the Mashiach. (anyone remember him watching people tithe and praising the lady for her faithfulness?!)
Modern opponents to tithing often draw heavily on "how you feel" arguments, and classify all other arguments as "legalistic" and "bondage".
I'd have to ask the same question once asked here...
"Where does scripture condemn it?"
Post resurrection scriptures... Paul speaks of where good doctrine/teaching/instruction comes from. In one place he specifically mentions "what" is good for all these.
Paul states "ALL" (not "some") of the Tanakh is good for:
4.) Instruction in righteousness
Often times I find many believers rely "too much" on the "New Testament", and not enough on the "Old Testament". I find it saddening when I question: "If it is ALL good for these things, why do some churches hand out bibles with JUST the New Testament?". And people wonder why they can never seem to convert Rabbinic Jews .
You'll find that all the New Testament writers look to the Tanakh as the scripture, but never to eachother's writings as such. Curious maybe. But yes it is good teaching for us today.
My point is, the NT writers looked to the Tanakh (OT) for their support in "doctrine" and "instruction", so if you want to "reproof" this issue, go first to the Tanakh to see it's foundation of commandment, then to the words of Yeshua (Gospels) for it's walls of practice, and then to the Letters for it's roofing of acceptability.
YHVH Commanded it. Yeshua doesn't rebuke for others taking part in it. Letters don't rebuke for observing it. What's the real issue here?
One issue for me is this. What is called "tithe" today is not in any way what is commanded by scripture back then for Isreal.
Tithe in the OT was a tenth of the produce of the inherrited land in Caanan(the promiced land ). Eleven tribes received a land inheritance and the twelth did not. That tribe was the tribe of Levi (The preists). The tithe was there inheritence because they did not receive any land in the inheritance.
The one thing that we must remember is that at that time Isrial lived under a theocrocy(A government by God). They did not pay taxes or compensate or depend on any one or thing else. Along with the tithe (a 10% tax to support the preists) they were required to make sacrifices and additional offerings as was needed and called for. The tithe was not money!! It was was the produce of the land or the flocks raised on the land (For the herdsmen). they inherited. Those who did not inherate land such as servents, slaves, women, children (until passed on as an inheritance from their father ,usualy the first born male). Money become involved only when they wished to purchace the tithe back.
The price was the preists estimated value of the tithe plus 5%.
Jesus mentioned tithe only twice. .
Once when rebuking the pharicees (recorded twice, once in Matthew and again in Luke).
And the second in a parable about the rich man in Luke.
As a Gentile. I am adopted. My inhertiance is not of this earth. My inheritance is in heaven. Under Levitical Law I did not, cannot and will never get a phyisical land inheritance in Caanan.
There is nocommandment or requirement in the New Testement to tithe to either the "Levitical preist" or the "church".
We are told that we should as believers support those who have deticated themselves to the teaching, preaching and administration of The Word. But that is in no way a commandment for a specific amount or for the church to set an amount and require payment of such (As some do!!!).
The average income for a non denominational pastor is about $38,000 a year. That is a couple thousand less than my annual income. Denominational pastors annual income is close to $56.000 dollars(As of the year 2000). Which is conciderably more than I make. I don't see as that is an indication of failure of the church to support those deticated to working in the gospel.
Of course I realize that not all the money given to the church goes to compensate the pastor and staff. Though in most churches elders deacons and other believers administer or maintain ministries on a voluntary basis.
Certianly much of it goes to provide a place to worship and for costs of maintaining that place of worship.
The accomadations for worship are completely at the discression of the congregation. They have to be as there is no commandment, directive or presedent in the New Testement for the provision of a deticated building.
We know from scripture that they met in fellow believer's homes and facilities such as the "Upper Room". And it is supposed that larger groups for major events used coloseums and such. We have no way of knowing how or if there was compensation for the large facilities. But nowhere is it indicated, directed or commanded that the church was to or had to have assets or build, aquire and maintain a deticated building.
Less than 5% of church goers tithe and the average per person offering ranges from 1.5% to 3% including those churches where tithing preached and taught or encouraged.
And yet the church assets continue to grow????
What's wrong with this picture in respect to tithing????? Is it necessary or greed??? Why does the church keep calling for more????? When is enough enough????
Just a couple of problems...
1.) Produce limited to landowners and/or herdsmen disqualifies other trades/professions from tithing. The 10th of all increase means monetary as well as other physical goods (as seen in the tithe exchange between Abraham and Melchizedek in Genesis 14). The "temple tax" was also a monetary tithe the people observed in Yeshua's time which found it's roots in the Tanakh.
2.) Gentiles are not excluded from a land inheritance as per the covenant agreement, gentiles are now citizens in the community of Israel with full rights to the promises to Abraham as he is the father of the Gentiles as well.
The promises made to Abraham and his seed are for his seed regardless of how they became his seed. You being of Christ, are now the seed of Abraham and fully acceptable for the promises of YHVH to him... that includes the land promised to his sons, of which you are now one.
Though tithing isn't written in b/w in the NT, the Word *does* say to give freely. There is often a misunderstood, overused or underused reference in tithing today... but many people have had a lot of success in certain areas of their lives when they tithe (some reports of greater blessings as a result)...
Also, think that giving 10% of our day to God might make a difference too, as I don't think 10% is *that* hard to accomplish in our walk. And realize I'm not talking about money here.
Just a thought.
Please explain how the Gentiles can have the land inheritance when at the time of the inheritance they were not in the family????? If we had or have a land inheritance where is it???? How can I tithe on the proceeds of land I don't know I have. Please show in scripture were the Gentile "land" inheritance is and were the tribe of Levi is in the "church" that I might tithe as I should To have a Christian tithe as a Jew is to tax one for oranges when all they have are apples. Both are friuit but not the same fruit.
The inheritance that the Jews and Gentiles jointly inherit through faith in Jesus is eternal life and for that there is no tithe.
Are you separating Jewish Christians and gentile Christians?
What you say certianly makes good sense. However is that always enough???
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Do we tithe or sell what we have and give to the poor to inherit eternal life???