Discussion in 'Business and Finance' started by Mercedes Benz E Class, Aug 27, 2013.
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse,
not half, not a quarter or whatever you prefer.
you are invited to test Him, but the Holy Spirit is a Gentleman
- so it is your choice.
yes, even to reap the rewards is your choice.
Isnt the bible clear enough?
Either way, you get to choose ok?
I can't make this a law thing, but a principle thing.
I can say that tithing and honoring God with a 10% has never failed, nor has any bill gone unpaid though it looked like many times it would.
Its not a law thing, but a principle thing - or I dare say a love thing and even a worship thing.
Just one of the ways to show God some love back.
indeed, He never fails.
Just God saying he is not mocked, but we reap what we sow should make anyone want to tithe and give offering and be ready to listen to the Holy Spirit for opportunities to give. I am not saying give foolishly, as I am never moved by someones need, but I am moved when the Holy Spirit tells me to respond. We don't want to end up as someones source or enable people who are not obeying God.
I have found if someone will obey and put God first, He takes care of them.
Well "all" the tithes are 20% every year, and 30% each third year. Exactly as you say: not half, not a quarter or whatever you prefer. Can you justify only 10% (which is half the tithes most years, a third of the tithes on the third year), and still pass the "test" described in Malachi?
Well, if you think the scriptures are clear, after you've considered the discussion of scriptures here, then make your case:
You've previously stated here that 10% of your income belongs to God, and 90% is yours to do what you want. Say I'm a new Christian who has never head of tithing before in my life. Explain to me, through the clarity of the Bible, how you arrived at this conclusion.
Amazing to me that when we are in the world, there is no monetary limit on partying (cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, etc.). But when The Lord delivers us, we suddenly get stingy with "our" money.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Absolutely. Jesus clearly teaches generosity.
Here's how I'm looking at this conversation:
Does God command us to tithe?
Or does God want us to be generous, and some people may decide to take on a personal commitment to tithe, knowing that it is not a command from God, but they personally find it helpful to remind them to be generous? Other people may choose to remind themselves to be generous in other ways, and others may need no reminder at all, possibly because they are gifted with generosity.
No one here is saying that we aren't required to be generous. We're talking about tithing, are we not?
Let's say we find out God commands us to tithe, and not doing so is like robbery, or committing adultery.
Is then tithing with ZERO faith and of necessity really honoring God with a 10% if we do it under some law or obligation?
Sowing needs faith and joy over the seed. It won't produce if you sow grudgingly. Having to tithe out of some duty could make someone weary and we don't reap if we grow weary and faint.
I can say that tithing is a very good idea with great reward, but not if the revelation is not there.
So it can't be God's command to the church, based on other scriptures. I have scripture to support it, but we have to examine all the scripture together.
Well, let's have a look at these scriptures, then.
I think we've been asking that same question for a page or two.
Michael, I don't really understand your argument. We could say that about anything from the Law if we wanted. What ifs don't really matter if the issue isn't salvation based. We wouldn't be cast into hell for not giving 10% anyway because, according to Roads, tithing 10% doesn't even cover what the Bible says we should tithe.
If we want to play what ifs, then what if you get to heaven and you tell Jesus you gave 10% of your income and He says that the Bible says that isn't nearly enough? And then asks where monetary tithe is in the Bible anyway!
Off topic, but just as a point of interest, really, I've been reading lately about the Hebrew concept of Gehenna (an up-to-12-month afterlife purification to prepare you for Gan Eden/Olam HaBa, the next world). Apparently they believed that there were two aspects of Gehenna, a place of fire, which purifies you of your burning rebellion against the commandments, and a place of snow, which purifies you of "coldness" toward the commandments, which is, apparently, good actions, but done out of obligation, without the proper zeal and enthusiasm. The Hebrew concepts of the afterlife are another (very interesting) topic, but all I really wanted to point out is that the idea of having zeal and the proper motives behind your obedience has always been important in Judeo-Christian thought.
When Paul discusses motives, he says we don't even know what our true motive are, but God will reveal them at the appointed time, and "At that time each will receive their praise from God," 1 Cor 4:3-5.
Jesus did tell some that came to him who cast out devils, performed miracles in his name to depart from him you workers of iniquity, I KNOW YOU NOT!
Which was my point about the 10% being a commandment. If people are forced to do something apart from faith (Get that revelation as it will help you help and not judge others) then it's not really a tithe, but of some law or duty.
Where there is no law, sin is not imputed, and only God gives the increase as we plant and water.
I knew a brother I visited who had porn mags everywhere. he was embarrassed for me to see them. However, I did not say a Word to him.
He already felt bad about it, but had he known how deadly they were, he would not go near them. He did not that revelation yet.
If someone understands sin, like they understand you don't grab something out of the oven without mits, they don't do that sin.
Tithe is the same way, I was sick of being broke, and being a believer I knew it was not God's will for me to be broke. So, I started in the Word to find out how not to be broke. All the answer are in there.
Is it time for you, O ye, to dwell in your cieled houses, and this house lie waste? Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways. Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.
Here they let the Lord's house sit in ruin while they were running around trying to get their houses liveable and nice. I guess having a ceiling over you head was a luxury back in them days, but that is what they were doing with all their time and resources. By not putting God's things first, they ran into poverty.
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Here Jesus says the same thing, seek the Kingdom of God first, put God's things first and then the rest just gets added to you.
So the best way I figured on doing this is starting with tithing before paying bills. It was not a law thing, but a revelation of how not to stay broke.
What I see is: put the Kingdom of God first by looking for need, and addressing it.
In the Haggai passage you referred to, what part of the tithes would have went into rebuilding the temple? Tithes were agricultural products, and were only for food for the Levites, poor and foreigners. God must have been asking for voluntary monetary contributions, and probably actual labor. I can't see how tithing would have contributed specifically to the rebuilding of the temple, it's quite clear that tithes were always food and always used for food.
So the Haggai passage has a lot of great things to say about what it means to seek the Kingdom of God.
But what does it have to do with tithing?
That is to say: you make a great case for putting the Kingdom first. I just don't see the connection to the 10% number. The Haggai passage is a great example of that.
Slightly alter the wording of what I quoted from your post, and then we're (more or less) in agreement, i.e.:
"Here Jesus says the same thing, seek the Kingdom of God first, put God's things first and then the rest just gets added to you.
So the best way I figured on doing this is starting with [considering the needs of others] before [my own]"
Or here's another way of looking at it:
Supporting (financially and otherwise) the work of fellow Christians = seeking the Kingdom first
Making sure the needs of Christians in "full time" ministry are met (financially and otherwise) = seeking the Kingdom first
Making sure we're taking care of the poor and foreigners among us (financially and otherwise) = seeking the Kingdom first
I don't get:
10% of your income = the minimum requirement of seeking the Kingdom first, minimum requirement to "reap" blessings
9.5% of your income = unequivocally robbing God, not seeking the Kingdom first, not good enough to "reap" blessings
10.5% of your income = just plain generous, above and beyond the minimum requirement, exceptionally seeking the Kingdom first
I'm hoping someone can explain it to me.
Thanks for the verses Lyle. I had a look at all of them. Before I offer discussion about what I think, though, do me a favor and explain exactly what is being commanded here, because I can't figure it out:
- What form does it come in? Like, if I'm a office supplier, can I give it in, say, toner?
- Am I commanded give the first fruits of (x) as well as tithing? Or just one or the other? Which one?
- What minimum amount are we commanded to give (%?) I.e., all three tithes, or just one? If one, why can I ignore the others?
- Where does the amount come from, "all we have" (total assets), or increase (income)?
- How often are we commanded to pay it: weekly? Annually? Once in three years of a seven year cycle? Or is it just a one-off?
- Who must receive it, exactly, and why?
- Are there specific commands for its use by the recipients?
Since that 10% number is what God gave and tied that to blessing, then it seems like a good number to go off. Jesus said render to Caesar what is his and Render unto God what is his. I have to assume that God considers something that is His, and Jesus said if anyone is faithful in unrighteous mammon... (material stuff, money) then He will be given true riches.
So, it seems to me that money is sort of like a yard stick of our faithfulness with money, and what better way than to give 10% of it back to God.
There are lots of things people do for, or because of God that has Zero scripture support at all. For instance, my grandma won't eat Chinese food because of their dragon statues. I believe God is good and giving us this 10% number so we have something to work with if we choose.
I quote your post Michael because i believe i can count on you if i am wrong. And Mercedes Benz. This is just something i'd like to mention without answering any specific question. Isn't it true that the slaves in Egypt tithed 10% if their food in honour of God. And the Jews are the wealthiest people in the world that stem from the slavery. I mention this only because i do not claim to be no expert on history or the bible for the matter.
And there are some famous tithers who tithed to God from a very young age. Henry Ford, Colgate, Quaker Oats to name a few.
Personally i feel it such an honour to tithe. It's showing that i want to honour Him and put Him first and that includes in my 'finances'. I'm willing to give him 10% in tithe. Above all God owns everything even the money that comes to us and we are just giving back what belongs to Him (the tithe) so the 90% left is blessed. Many don't want to understand the tithe because it involves money. Shows where your heart really lies. How much do you trust God? You would then trust Him with your finances.
I also feel it's a honor that God has something in place to where we can connect our money with his blessing and power. God also said he would rebuke the devourer for our sake, which means our stuff don't break before it's time.
People can actually tithe their way out of Poverty and there is a reason the Jewish people are wealthy, keeping the tithe principle.
There would be no reason for believers to miss out on it.
I have learned, I can't afford to not tithe. Everything always gets fixed, everything is always cheaper that it should have been, and God has directed me to amazing deals I would not have known about.
Where was that verse?
Here's what I've read:
- Abel's offering had no number tied to it. It was closer to the first fruits offering than tithing, as far as I can tell. They gave "some."
- The blessing in Malachi seems to be tied to a number more like 20% or higher
- Abram's 10% doesn't seem to have been given by God. He gave it to Melchizedek, apparently, in response to having received that king's blessing. It was also, apparently, a one-off deal.
- Jacob's tithe is similar, there's no evidence that it's set by God or connected to any blessing
- The Haggai passage connects that blessing with doing something that isn't tithing
- Proverbs 3:9-10 connects that blessing with the first fruits, which we're told belong to God, and are in addition to the tithes. The correct amount of first fruits to give is "some" Deut 26
- In Numbers 31, there's this very interesting passage where battle spoils are being divided, where the Lord instructs Moses that His portion is 1/500 of the soldiers' half share, which went to the priest, and the Levites got 1/50 of the people's half share.
I'm looking hard for the 10% number that God gave and attached to a blessing... I don't know. What am I missing? There does seem to be a blessing connected with giving to God (and a specific way to give to God), but not specifically money, and not a specific % amount.
I think that would be a great thread to start: what is God's? And how does one render it unto Him?
In a way, that seems reasonable enough to me. But I fail to see how, and feel free to clarify, where something that occurs to us as being reasonable makes it command for everybody.
Truer words hath ne'r been spoken.
But please, let's avoid making those things with Zero scripture support into universal commands that falling short of is akin to robbery that cuts you off from entitlements to God's blessing.