Discussion in 'Business and Finance' started by Mercedes Benz E Class, Aug 27, 2013.
What is that?
Okay.. I really understand that question.. Are you asking how tithing of things like grain, etc became money?
Yeah. I mean I would assume that the only way it could have made the swap is since most people don't have crops anymore. But even then, it seems like bringing food to the church would be more like old time tithe.
I can appreciate that. While I don't really see the Bible teaching the "covenant" stuff you're talking about (it seems a bit unnecessary that there needs to be a covenant beyond what is offered through the cross...), the actual effect of the way we both live our lives in terms of looking for opportunities to be generous seems to be pretty similar. Honestly, I had to stop officially "tithing" to my church in order to make that change in my life: I had to stop keeping count in order to move toward being compassionate, merciful and generous, and to give to those in need and to the ministry of other Christians out of love instead of compulsion.
I notice that most people seem to assume (and I appreciate that you've not made this assumption) that when I've tried to challenge a "10% cut of your income to your church" rule, that I'm personally trying to "get out" of tithing. Actually, my concern comes from what I've observed in churches that I've been a part of: people who cut 10% of their income to their church on Sunday morning, proudly and religiously, then consider their entire Christian duty for the week fulfilled. I think this practice has led to a church culture where we effectively "pay" other Christians to do, on our behalf, what Christ teaches is expected of all of us. Such a culture defies the very instruction it claims to uphold, to give to God what is God's. I don't want to be self-righteous about it, I used to do the same thing.
So while I, in all honestly, can't see your point about tithing equaling a covenant, I don't have any problem at all with the way you describe about how you live your life, looking for opportunities to help "the least of these," and it seems to be a good reflection of what Jesus teaches us about mercy, compassion and generosity.
Ya, I think you are rite.. I think it was meant to be first fruits.. So people used to bring in crops from their harvest.. now our first fruits is simply a pay check!
Here's an interesting reference to money in tithing. If they wanted, apparently the Hebrews could "redeem" their tithe of crops by paying for its value plus one fifth extra, but they could not redeem their tithe of cattle.
30“ ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. 31Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. 32Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord. 33No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed.’ ”
There are definitely some interesting things going on in Lev 27.
You'll notice that tithes here do not seem to come from "income" per se (i.e., not from just the newly born cattle), but from all of the farmer's assets. The tithe here is not the first of everything, but the tenth of everything (v.32). It seems to work like this: count your cows. For each tenth cow you count, that one goes toward your tithe, whether it's good or bad. So they seemed to tithe the last of their assets, not the first of their income.
The "firsts" seem to belong to God, and this seems to be in addition to the tithes:
26“ ‘No one, however, may dedicate the firstborn of an animal, since the firstborn already belongs to the Lord; whether an oxjor a sheep, it is the Lord’s. 27If it is one of the unclean animals, it may be bought back at its set value, adding a fifth of the value to it. If it is not redeemed, it is to be sold at its set value.
So what Leviticus seems to be describing here, if I've read it correctly (and please, double check!) is that
- All your firstborn animals belong to God, and if it's an unclean animal, it must either be redeemed or sold. This is not a tithe, but is in addition to the tithes.
- You tithe from your total assets, not your income. Your tithe is every tenth thing that you count.
Regarding first fruits, these are again distinct from tithes and from the firstborn of cattle described in Lev 26. It is an agricultural offering only. You can read about the distinction between the first fruit offering and tithes (specifically, the third tithe) in Deut 26.
So, if we are truly supposed to be tithing then we need to buy cattle? If we are required to give are firstborn animals, and a tenth of our cattle, and we don't have any animals anymore what should we do? That would mean we are required to give 15% of our income? Even then we wouldn't be satisfying the commands there.
Just for interest's sake, here is a list of what I've read so far about what a Hebrew landowner would be required to give:
- The firstborn of all your cattle
- The first fruits of your crops, apparently eaten by the Levites and foreigners
- The Temple tax
- An annual tenth of your crops and cattle, given to the Levites for their food (hard to say if this is a tenth of your total assets, or a tenth of your increase)
- An additional annual tenth of the increase of your crops and firstborn of your cattle, eaten as a feast, shared by Levites
- Every three years, an additional tenth of the increase of your crops and cattle, given to the Levites, poor and foreigners for food
There are not only stipulations about what is to be tithed and offered, but who receives them, and how they are to be used by the recipients. As you can see, it's very difficult to tell exactly how to "satisfy the commands." It's very difficult to say that all this can be adequately summarized by "give your church 10% of your income."
I'll have to take notes next time I read through Leviticus. I remember those verses but it's been a few months since I read them myself.
A tithe was just a 10% to God for his goodness starting with Cain and Able. So 10% would be what you personally worked and produced. If you get paid in wheat, then you gave the grain.
Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell what he had, turn it into money and give it to the poor. (Not a tithing principle, but a principle that changing things into money, it becomes a more usable tool)With a money system in place many years later, you would more likely turn what you produced into something that is easy to use for the church. Even Judas got upset that they dumped some perfume on the Lord's feet that would have been worth 14,000 or more by today's standards. (Years worth of wages) Judas suggested that it be sold and the money be given to the poor........ (more like he wanted to get his hands on the money from it)
Money is the most usable and changeable tool.
the thread is not about "Having" to tithe.
We also don't want to complicate things by getting in the law about it. Abraham gave a 10% of his spoils and it was money. In Fact the dude at Sodom wanted to do something for Abraham but Abraham said I would not even take a shoe string from you, let no man say they made me rich but God.
God promised in Malachi to bring the tithe into the store house. I am assuming it would have been food items. God said he would bless us to where there is no room to receive and rebuke the devourer for our sake.
Good enough for me, sign me up to qualify for that.
So, I would rather God have the money and take care of things for me. If someone is going to tithe, then I would suggest it be a heart revelation and not a duty or something they have to do.
Even in my trucking Job, I wanted more money, so what I did is figured out how much more I needed and I tithed that extra by faith as if I actually had been making that amount.
It was just a couple months of doing this where a door opened and instead of only 600.00 a week, God moved and I was bringing home over 1,200 a week take home...........
Amazing I was paying the government over 400.00 a week in taxes somehow................ It also put me in the upper tax bracket to where I did not see most of that back.
Oh well............. If Jesus was here, He would say render unto God what is God's and the government will take anyway what they think is their cut. It's well over 10% to pay for Statues in Pakistan that cost 400,000..............
Not complaining really, just saying.............
If this thread isn't about discussing whether or not Law says we have to tithe then it shouldn't be here. Should we give to our church and the poor and needy? Yes. Should we give 10% of our money to a single church and assume they do all the things they should with it? No.
Never assume. If they aren't doing what the Bible says they should do, find another church.
Agreed. I don't currently have a church though. Got to find me one of those.
If the tithe was only mentioned in the law, then yes, I agree.......... It was long before the law though, and God made it a law, but we are not under a law of ordinances.
So, Abraham tithed by faith, and everything we do for the Lord should be by faith. It would have to be a heart thing, not a law thing.
If you want to tithe, then it would have to be something God showed you, or made clear to you why. You should not have to do anything based on someone else convictions, for Paul said why am I to be judged by another mans conscience?
Now if someone wants to make it a law thing, I will take sides against that idea. We can't please God apart from faith, just keeping duties is not going to cut it.
Which you still haven't proven with Scripture...
Proven with scripture the tithe? Is that what you mean?
Not saying for you, but this is what I personally saw.
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
For me, God is saying Prove that I am not wrong here.............. Just bring your tithe, and I'll bless you. I'll bless you to the point you won't have room enough to receive.
The only scripture in the bible that tells us to prove God if He is wrong or not......... anything else is tempting God, and that is not good.
He also said he will rebuke the devourer for my sake that my car will not cast it's engine out before it's time........ (Paraphrased)
That is what I saw years ago, and I figured since I had always been poor and I am not smart like my brothers, then I would give God 10% of all I made.
Jacob said about the same thing, down on his luck, poor, he said.........
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
Now Jacob got blessed, and I needed blessed. The amount coming in was not enough to cover everything.
I can't make this a law thing, but a principle thing.
I can say that tithing and honoring God with a 10% has never failed, nor has any bill gone unpaid though it looked like many times it would.
God is no respecter of persons and if God helped me, then I know God will help someone else just the same.
Good stuff Michael.
Tithe is the best insurance policy you can write. Against your car, washing machine etc.
Even if you don't have enough cash, somehow the things that cause you to spend tons of
money like a new engine, gearbox etc are kept at bay - rebuke the devourer for your sake.
At the end of the day, God is asking you to test Him.
Its your choice whether you take that test, i.e. if you choose to tithe or not.
If you choose to reap the blessings or not.
Its your choice.
(and if you wanna justify yourself out of tithe. that's also fine. its your choice)
MBEC, anything we are taught, we should examine scripture to see if that teaching comes from God, or men, I'm certain you'd agree.
What I see here are people examining scripture to see if what men teach is really what the Bible teaches. If you think there is something we are missing, feel free to interject with the relevant scriptures.