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Theology is not faith

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by mistmann, Jan 3, 2012.

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  1. OK I made the heading to catch the eye of the interested. I am suspecting that like me, many are finding it difficult to visit all of the many new threads being started up. I am unashamedly employing a little "eye-catching" because I think this topic is something from which many might gain greater insight. BUT the heading is true nonetheless.

    The point is "Theology" is actually a science (just like Archaeo-LOGY, Bio-LOGY, Psycho-LOGY, Paleonto-LOGY, etc.). It is the "scientific" study of God and religious beliefs. Even an atheist can be a theologist.

    And just like any other field of science it is a few facts strung together by a lot of THEORY. I would imagine a conservative estimate might be something like 1 part fact, 5 parts theory. And just like any other science the fact is true but the theory is just opinion. In the case of theology what is actually written in the Bible is fact, but the theories as to what it means are merely opinions, not facts. Wisdom comes in the discernment of which is which.

    The trouble is when people are asked to produce Biblical support for their declarations all too frequently what they do is quote a passage or two of scripture which may or may not support (or indeed have relevance to) their assertions and then a whole lot of theoretical opinion that comes not from the Bible but from the theories and opinions of whatever theological school of thought they choose to believe. Theories and opinions that may or may not be true. Theories and opinions that most often go far BEYOND what is written without any grounds for doing so, simply being somebodies' opinion of what MIGHT be the truth even though the Bible itself does not declare it to be so.

    Faith is not theology. Theology is usually extremely convoluted and complex as people try to extrapolate a whole raft of theories and predictions from a few simple passages or even just a few words. Faith, on the other hand, is confoundingly simple (for those who wish to appear wise and learned in the eyes of others). It is merely accepting that if the Lord actually SAYS it (ie. it is written in the Bible) then it is true and a fact of reality (which actually means the same thing. Truth is reality and reality is truth).

    I am sure many here have probably noted already that I tend to attract disagreements like a dog attracts fleas. This is because while I am endeavouring to point out what the written words of the Bible actually say some people want to argue what the theories and opinions of their particular theology say. It is like trying to compare apples and oranges. The truth as declared by the Lord versus the truth according to the various and varied philosophies, theories and opinions of men.

    Many try (unsuccessfully) to put me into this or that theological box but, while I am sure some may argue otherwise, the truth is I have no theology, I just believe in the truth of what the Lord has actually written. I claim no authority for truth beyond that which the Lord has written. When I do touch upon something that is beyond what is written I try to be very careful to make it clear that it is beyond what is written and is merely MY opinion or theory, or that of others, or that it is a verifiable fact of the reality about us. The only authorities for truth we have are the word of the Lord and VERIFIABLE FACTS of the reality about us. Pretty much everything else is merely opinion and conjecture which may or may not be true.

    I am certain discussions would be much more fruitful and edifying if everybody were able to keep a clear and aknowledged, and proper, separation between that which is actually written by the Lord, or is a verifiable FACT of the reality about us, and that which is merely the theories and opinions of a particular theology of man.

    One thing is for certain - Satan will always be trying very hard to blur and obscure the distinction. The very bright and revealing light of factual reality (and what the Lord has actually written is also a factual reality) will always be an anathema to those whose intent is to deceive and hide the reality of things.

    Open for discussion, questions, explanations, etc. if any one wishes. Or simply as information for people to ponder in their own minds if that is what they prefer or feel led to do.

    Regards, Misty.
    Ingbert likes this.
  2. I agree, theology is a study, "faith" however is trust in a person or thing (God in this case). Although I'm sure that many would argue with
    my definition of faith. Our Lord defined it as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (which if you ask me is more poetic than helpful). I've pondered this quite a bit over the years and have come to somewhat of an understanding of what "faith" is all about.
    Humor me a moment....
    Very often when Padre Pio would serve mass at his local church (San Giovanni) the crowd would be so great that he would not be able to pass from the back of the church to the altar due to the crowd. So he would walk through the air over the heads of the crowd up to the front of the church.
    (The locals had seen this often enough that it did not overly amaze them.) When asked how he walked on air Padre Pio replied that it was just like walking on the ground. The difference is that when Padre Pio took that first step into the air, in his heart of hearts he KNEW that his foot would land on solid something, whereas when I step into the air I KNOW that my foot will find nothing but air. Just as when Peter tried to walk on water, his faith faltered and he sank. Faith is KNOWING something is true, not feeling, wishing, or hoping, but knowing with every fibre of your being.
    And we wonder why faith is such a rare thing.
  3. Faith is a belief but linked to theology. Many arround the globe have faith in false gods, take Islam for example. Faith is a belief in something but this belief is based on something - maybe a cultural experience, a teaching, a bad experience etc.

    Christian faith is based upon a number of inputs. Firstly the Holy Spirit develops faith inside of us through various means - revelation, answered prayer, encounters with unbelievers and studying God's word - aka theology.

    Theology is but one leg of the foundation of faith, but a very critical one. Theology and I stress the correct theology is vital in building strong faith. I know many a Christian who never studies the bible and their faith remains weak - when the storms of life come they get swept away.

    Paul writes what the link is between faith and the study of scriptures and the importance of such a study.

    2Ti 3:15

    and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

    2Ti 3:16

    All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

    2Ti 3:17
    that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.
  4. No argument of your definition of faith from me Glomung. However faith that the reports of the feats of Padre Pio are true might be another matter:). But it does illustrate the point you are making.

    It might be said that faith is the evidence and proof we have that everything the lord has said is true (which is the gist of Hebrews 11:1). It took me a while to appreciate the difference between agreeing with the Lord that what He says is true, and knowing it to be true BECAUSE the Lord has said it.

    There is a reason why faith is always a leap. It is because there is no faith until the FULL weight of BOTH feet are firmly planted and dependent upon it. Half faith is no faith. "One foot in each camp" simply means no faith in either.
  5. Hi Kevin,

    This is where wise discernment is required because while study of the word of God is a PART of Theology, Theology itself does not confine itself to studying the word of God. There is a very important difference between what the Word of The Lord declares as true and what man declares as true about the Word of The Lord. The first is the word of God Himself. The second is merely the words of Men. The first is the ultimate authority of truth. The second is only true if it accords with the first or with the VERIFIABLE facts of reality which is the very definition of truth. "Truth" is factual reality. What the Lord has revealed to man in His word are facts of the true reality in which man exists. However theology is what man declares or theorises are the facts.

    Much of theology actually arises out of DISbelief, not belief, of the word of God. It is an endeavour to rationalise away what a man cannot believe about the Word of God. Probably the simplest (but far from only) example is the many theologies about creation. What the Lord has declared as true is that in 6 day/night cycles He turned a dark and void and lifeless planet into an habitable self-sustaining, life supporting planet complete with Man himself. Those who believe the Lord at His word simply accept this as true (as I myself do). It is those who cannot believe He is able to do this that create theories about 1 day really being a thousand years, or the whole thing being allegorical, or some other theory that allows them (in their own minds) to declare they believe the Bible without actually believing what the words of God Himself actually declare as true. The majority of Theology is like this. It is Roman Catholic Theology that allows it (in its own mind) to convince itself that it believes the Bible when, in fact, much of what it believes is contrary to what the Bible declares as true. But the RC is far from being alone in this form of theological self-deception. Most denominations suffer from it to varying extents.

    The Bible itself AS WRITTEN there on the page, must ALWAYS be accorded the ultimate authority to declare what is and what is not true, Theology must NEVER be allowed to usurp the supreme authority of the written word of God Himself to declare what is and what is not true. That is why Paul was so adamant when he said (twice for emphasis):-

    Gal 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
  6. It never ceases to amaze me how quick Evangelicals are to criticise things they KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.
    "However faith that the reports of the feats of Padre Pio are true might be another matter."
    I will just quote what God said to Peter "Thou shalt not call unclean what I have made clean."
  7. Agreed............but please know that it is "some" not all.
  8. I do not have a dog in this hunt. I only question the use of Gal. 1:8-9 here as a Biblical authority to support the comments made.

    The context and purpose of said Scripture was to Jewish church members from Jerusalem who were referred to as JUDAIZERS. They taught the new Christians in Galitia to ADD the customs, laws and ceremonies of Judaism to Christainity as being necessary for salvation (Acts 15). Paul objected so strongly to this mixture or synthesis of Christianity and Judasim that he actually curses all who pervert the gospel.
    When the gospel of grace is diluded or added to with human "works of any kind" or by keeping the law in any way, or by ceremonies or obedience, then we can no longer sing...................
    "Jesus paid it all, nothing in my hand I bring, simply to thy cross I cling."

    I would only add here that modern Judaizers which fail to present the sinfulness of sin and the absolute need of grace WITHOUT ANY HUMAN WORKS would come under the curse that Paul has directed. Christians should be leaders in courtesy and cordiality and it is in that spirit I say that I question the verse used here as a basis of Biblical authority.
  9. Merely pointing out Glomung that I DO know nothing about this Padre Pio. That is why I have doubt about it and not faith. I would want to know a lot more about it before I will put my faith in a single report about a miracle. I would want to TEST the spirits involved to SEE if they are of God or not. That is all that was intended. It is no more than I would expect of any follower of Christ, even in relation to the things I say. I always encourage people to test things for themselves to see for THEMSELVES if they are true or not.

    We must always remember that "blind faith" is no better than no faith. The Lord calls us to a faith that has both eyes wide open and the mind fully awake. A faith based firmly on knowledge of reality is not easily deceived. Impossible to decieve if it is accompanied by the counsel of the Holy Spirit.
  10. What triggered Paul to issue this declaration is not an issue for the declaration Paul made is a UNIVERSAL declaration. He did not say anybody who teaches you to observe the Jewish customs let them be accursed. He said WHOEVER teaches ANYTHING other than what we have taught let them be accursed. Paul did not limit the declaration to any specific thing but to all teaching that is contrary to the scriptures and the teachings the Apostles received from Christ Himself that they have faithfully and truthfully passed on to us (now also part of scripture).

    Therefore a person who declares that Faith without works is NOT a dead faith (hence of no value) teaches a doctrine other than the teaching of the Lord through James (remember Paul says WE not I) and is numbered among those who Paul would have accursed. The same for those who would teach that those who merely SAY they have faith and believe but who do not actually DO the will of the Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven for this is also contrary to the word of Jesus Himself (who declared that they would not enter). Indeed ANY teaching that is contrary to or not in accordance with the actual written teachings and commands of the word of God. That is why it is an appropriate quote for the occassion, because it is a universal condemnation of ANY theology that is not in accordance with or is contrary to the truth AS DECLARED by what the Lord has actually written and preserved for us to know.

    The test is ALWAYS, is that what the written words actually say (ie did the Lord actually SAY it in the words HE used) or is it merely what somebody else claims they say or don't say. We cannot use theology to test our understanding of the word of God because it is theology that must be tested against the word of God to see if it accords or not. We have only the word of God, the verifiable facts of reality and, most importantly, the counsel of the indwelling Holy Spirit to test our understanding of the word of the Lord. Trouble is many put theology at the top of the ladder and in control of their beliefs, when it should be at the bottom being continually tested by that which should be at the top and in control, namely the written and preserved words of God Himself.
  11. Mistmann, true there are theologies out there that are contary to the written Word of God - that is why it is critical for ALL believers to read and study the Bible under much prayer. On the other hand there are very sound theologies which bring powerful truthful teaching to the church.

    Most of the NT written by Paul is actually theology - Pauls theology under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Paul studied and applied what he had studied as well as applying what Jesus Himself revealed to him. There are different genres in the Bible - historical narrative, poetry, prophetic, law etc. Paul did sound exegesis on all of these and ended up with a theology we now know as the NT - application to the churches on exposition of scripture.

    Just because there are reckless and poor theologies out there does not mean that true and sound theology is not available - it takes discernment, prayer and study to reveal which is true and which is false.

    Most theology in the evangelical churches is not based upon RC theology - ever heard of the reformation where thousands of reformers died to protect the truth of the scriptures at the hand of the RC? There are sound theologians out there and their stuff is based solidly in belief in the Bible itself.

    Go check out Grudem, Erickson,Williams, Berkhof, Strong - these are just some of the modern day theologians who do not compromise on the scriptures. They do not have answers to all things and yes they do have differing views on some subjects - but where they differ it is over relatively minor issues.
    Major likes this.
  12. Kevin.
    "Just because there are reckless and poor theologies out there does not mean that true and sound theology is not available - it takes discernment, prayer and study to reveal which is true and which is false."

    Well said!
  13. Understand Kevin I have never said we must IGNORE all theology. Only that we must understand WHAT theology is and its proper place in the scheme of things. Understand also that Paul's writings are no longer "Theology" they are part of the word of God. What the APOSTLES of Christ teach is not the words of men but the words of Christ through them. The 12 + 1 Apostles of Christ hold a unique position that is much, much higher than mere "theologian". The words of the Apostles are what we TEST the words of theologians against.

    SOME theology IS good and sound BUT it requires careful and diligent testing to discern which is and which is not and the word of God itself is that ultimate test. The problem is that so many these days bend the word of God to accord with their theology rather than change or abandon theology that does not accord with the written word of God. THAT is the problem I am endeavouring to address.

    As to RC versus Reformation Churches rest assured I am well aware of the history. The point being made is that even Protestant churches are beginning to fall into the same traps the RC fell into in puting the authority of Church Theology and church traditions above the authority of the Bible instead of subservient and accountable to it. They encourage people to follow their church's theology and teaching even when it does not accord with scripture. They become followers of a church, not followers of Christ. Understand what the Spirit is saying to the 7 churches of Revelation. The Spirit condemned many of the churches BUT it COMMENDED those individuals who in defiance of, and in opposition to, the bad theology of their churches abided steadfastly in the word of God. The condemnation was to the churches BUT the promises are to the INDIVIDUALS who abide steadfastly in the teachings and doctrines of the word of God as delivered by the Apostles and Prophets of the Lord Himself. AKA the Bible. Not those who unquestioningly follow their churches into error and false teachings.

    Theology can and often does go horribly wrong, even in Biblical times (ie the churches of Revelation and the heresies of the judaisers, nicolatians, etc.). Theology must always be tested against the word of God, never be allowed to usurp the authority of the word of God. If the theology does not accord with what the words and sentences and paragraphs of the Bible actually SAY on the page it must be abandoned and rejected as false teaching. Theology that is in accordance with what the Bible declares as true is not a problem provided it is understood that the Bible is still the greater authority and must always remain so.

    I hope this has clarified it a bit more.
  14. I actually agree on some of the points you have made. The Bible is the absolute authority, but we must also acknowledge that as mere people we often fail to correctly understand some theological points in the Bible and this often leads to divisions in the church. God in His wisdom has given some men the gift of understanding scripture throughout the ages and they are called to be teachers of the word. I find it interesting that throughout the church age there have always been powerful theologians who have brought the church back to scriptural authority - we see this most clearly in the 1st century church and also during the more recent reformation.

    There are many false teachings amongst the church today - prosperity, latter rain, emerging church and more recently the devious Chrislam spread by Rick Warren - there are already major theologians, church leaders and missionary organisations which are standing up to these teachings. Christ will never leave His bride - there will be powerful teachers raised up in our time to correct these false teachings.
  15. In addition to the ones you stated Kevin, and I agree with your opinion by the way, I would add "Replacement Theology" as one of the most insidious teaching out there today. It replaces the nation of Israel with the church and when that is done..........ALL of the prophecies of God become twisted and incorrect. It leads eventually to the Preterist position of historical fulfillment of prophecy and questions the soventry of God Himself.
  16. An interesting choice of example. But is not denying the prophecies that HAVE been fulfilled not also denying the sovereignty of God for in doing so you make His prophets out to be liars? EVERY Theology that does not accord with the word of God is insidious and not of God. Even those that claim, in direct contradiction to the express word of God, that in Christ there IS a difference between Jew and Gentile.

    After all the Bible does not teach that the church replaces Israel, it teaches that those who are in Christ ARE Israel and by faith are ALL (Jew and Gentile alike) the children and hiers of the promises and covenant of Abraham. That ALL who are in Christ are inwardly Jews. This is what the words of the Bible EXPRESSLY SAY. But haven't we been down this same well worn path so many times before Major? Must we always have the same "dance" every time we meet on a thread?

    We must always take great care not to compare and test one theology against another theology but ALL theologies against the word of God Himself. MOST of them fail the test at some point. Some more than others.

    Truth is a target with a single circle, either you hit it or you don't. Whether you miss by inches or by miles it is still not the truth. Indeed a near truth is much more insidious and damaging than a blatant lie. Few will believe a blatant lie but many will be caught by a near truth that is, in reality, just as much a lie as the blatant one.
  17. you say 1 foot in each camp is no faith in either.
    there are no camps God the creator ,and Christ his son.
    what other camps are there,a rainbow does not have sides.
    to divide God is the devils work.christ never divided us from God but brought us to God and his will for us.
    otherwise it would be the klingons in the red corner and ferengi in the blue corner and visa versa dancing with the devil.
  18. The discussion was about the nature of faith in general. Thr point being faith is an all or nothing deal. "One foot in each camp" is a metaphor over here. I am assuming it is also one over there. A similar metaphore is "having a bet each way". It is like saying to a trapeze artist that you have every faith he will catch you but making sure there is a safety net in case he doesn't. You faith is in the safety net as backup, not the trapeze artist you really are thinking may or may not catch you.

    Faith in Christ does not come with a safety net. Our faith needs to be totally in Christ to catch us EVERY SINGLE TIME. To tell us the absolute truth EVERY SINGLE TIME, etc. Following Christ does not come with a backup plan, BOTH feet must be firmly planted in Christ's camp alone.
  19. The answer to your question of...." Must we always have the same "dance" every time we meet on a thread?":::: Is actually very simple.

    IF YOUR "theology" is different than the expressed Word of God, then the answer is YES we will.

    Your comment of "But is not denying the prophecies that HAVE been fulfilled not also denying the sovereignty of God" is in itself an incorrect statement. You are assuming what you believe to be fulfilled prophecy where others do not believe that it is the case. What you propose theologically is called "HISTORICAL THEOLOGY" That my friend then becomes YOUR OPIONION as is the case with the 70 years of Daniel and in fact the teaching of Replacement theology.

    I respect your opinion, in fact I respect you as you are certainly a learned man with deep convictions. But as I have said many times to you, I do not agree with your thesis or your "theology".
    YOU have chosen to follow the "Historical approach to prophecy by stateing that past events have already been fulfilled in the history of the Roman Empire of the 1st century. You have stated your belief many times on this subject and you have veimately argued that you are not a "Preterist". The facts however are that that is exactly the Preterest view, but what ever you claim, you claim. I am just repeating what you have said and compared that to reality of the theology itself.

    I on the other hand am a "FUTURISTIC in theology when comparing prophecy to Scripture and its fullfillent. The beast of Rev. 11-19 is the same as Daniel's fourth beast in Dan. 7, which is yet future and DID NOT take place in 70-74 AD with the Roman conquest. Since you have named this thread about THEOLOGY.................allow me to say to you that the 5 time specifications of the Revelation (11:2- 11:3-- 12:6, 14--13:5 upon close "THEOLOGICAL" investigations, harmonize perfectly with the same time specifications and events which surround the yet future 7 year period lnow as Daniel's 70 th Week. (Dan. 9:27; 8:25; 12:7). That my brother is MY BIBLICAL AUTHORITY. I am not going to post all the Scripture for the sake of time and space and my belief is that any can look them up to validate.

    The FURURISTIC approach to the prophecy of the end times is IMO the only one (Contracted to Liberal/Allegorical/Preterit/Historical/ & Topical------all theolocial terms by the way)
    that harmonizes Daniel 9:24; 26-27; 7:19-27; 8:23-25 to ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Matthew 24 & 25 and 2 Thess. 2:1-12; Jerimiah 30:4-10; Rom. 11:25-26; John 5:25; Zech. 12:9-14; Jer. 23:5-6 all into one unified eschatogical program.

    Another good comment from you that I agree with is.............
    "Truth is a target with a single circle, either you hit it or you don't. Whether you miss by inches or by miles it is still not the truth. Indeed a near truth is much more insidious and damaging than a blatant lie. Few will believe a blatant lie but many will be caught by a near truth that is, in reality, just as much a lie as the blatant one."

    That is exactly why I feel the need to differ with you on some of your opinions. You tend to give just enough truth to get ones attention but you miss the mark of the truth that the Scriptures teach and instead of teaching that truth, you work extra hard to make those Scriptures fit your opinions. That is one of the greastest errors of teachers today.

    That has resulted in your rejection of Daniels 70th week and also Replacement Theology. I am NOT in any way argueing with you as anyone can see. I am doing nothing but pointing out what I believe the Scriptures say compared to what YOU state they say. IF that angers you..........I can not help it neither can I apologize for it. It is something you must deal with when you make the comments that you make and you KNOW that there will be responces like mine to challenge your comments and if not me, then someone else will.

    Then your comment was.................
    "That ALL who are in Christ are inwardly Jews. This is what the words of the Bible EXPRESSLY SAY".

    YES we have crossed that bridge a couple of times which of course begs the question of why you are posing it yet once again????????

    First of, my comments were to Kevin and not to you at all. But none the less, they satand.

    YES, the Christian is IMO a SPIRITUAL Jew when he comes to Christ as Savior. The Jew and the Gentile come to God NOW through Christ, not ceremonies or baptism or law keeping. Everyone come to God on the same BASIS which is FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. BUT...........that in now ay means that the nation of Israel has been replaced with the church.
    Isreal is Isreal and the church is the church!!!!!

    Instead of dealing with this from a systematic theology approach and getting bogged down in a survey of the theological systems known as Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism, I’m going to use a biblical theology model since that is the name of the thread here. . The Moody Handbook of Theology defines it this way, “Biblical Theology takes its material in an historically oriented manner from the Old and New Testaments and arrives at a theology. It is exegetical in nature as opposed to philosophical.”

    If we fail to distinguish between the Church and Israel, we will have difficulty in interpreting the Bible, especially in regards to prophecy.
    The Church is distinct from the nation of Israel. Israel is God’s chosen people who have specific promises (land, king) that are eternal and irrevocable. There is still much that God is going to do with Israel.
    A common error is to teach that Israel was the Church of the Old Testament and the believers of the New Testament are just another manifestation of the chosen people of God. It is taught that since the Jews rejected Christ, God has rejected them forever. That leaves room to say that the Church is the new Israel in sprit. All promises that were given to Israel would therefore apply to the Church of the New Testament.

    1 Corth. 10:32...............
    "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God."
    The Jews – Israel
    The Gentiles – the unconverted, unsaved of the world.
    The church of God – all believers in today’s period of grace.

    In Acts 15:14-17 divides the world in the same way:
    The Church.......God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name (v. 14).
    Israel................After this I will return, and will build you the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up (v. 16)
    The Gentiles.........That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things (v. 17).
    Again we see the same division in Ephesians and Colossians:
    the Jews-the circumcision made with hands -------Eph. 2:11.
    the Gentiles-the uncircumcision---------------------Eph 2:11.
    the Church-the circumcision made without hands-Col. 2:11.

    I am sure you will respond...........so then we shall continue to DANCE!
  20. But what is the point when it seems YOU will never see how your theology is different than the express Word of God??

    I have been asking the Lord what I should do with this "dance". I believe the best thing I can do with it is use it as the perfect example for others to see for themselves the trap when we allow our beliefs to be controlled by somebodies' Theology and not the word of God. Chances are you will not see it or admit it for you haven't yet but hopefully others will be able to see how easily many popular theologies of today subtly introduce false teachings into the Christian community under the guise of "sound doctrine".

    AS always I am speaking of the prophesies of Daniel 9-12 which contains the 70 "week" prophecy. The prophecies of Daniel 7 are separate prophecies to those of Dan 9-12.

    Firstly Daniel makes it clear that the curses for transgression he is speaking about are the SEVENfold increasing curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 for the BIBLE says clearly:-

    Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

    Dan 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us:

    Gabriel also is equally clear when he declares to Daniel that there is one more SEVENfold curse yet to come (70x 7).

    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks (ie 7 times the 70 years of the current curse) are determined (meaning decreed) upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity

    So seeing as the 70 "weeks" are inextricably tied to the last of the curses of Leviticus 26:14-46 let's see exactly what this last curse entails and what is the END RESULT of it coming to pass.

    Lev 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; 28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. 30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. 31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. 32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. 33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. 34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies’ land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. 35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. 36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. 37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

    In the seige of Jerusalem just before its destruction in 70AD and the famine it created history tells us that many families did indeed end up actually eating their own children. Gruesome as it is to contemplate it is exactly as Daniel prophesied. In 74 AD exactly "70 weeks" after the rebuilding of Jerusalem was completed the LAST city, High place and stronghold of Israel, namely MASADA was overrun and destroyed by the Roman Army. At this point the destruction of Israel as a land and a nation was TOTAL and the people of Israel forcebly scattered among the heathen nations and there they languished a much troubled and frightened people and remained until 1948. But the restoration of Israel to the Promised land only happens AFTER the last curse is lifted.

    Now the fulfilment of EVERY prophesy of Daniel 9-12 can actually be found in exacting detail in the history of the world prior to the end 0f 74 AD. The rise and fall of the Persian and Greek Empires, Antiochus Epiphanes, the Maccabbeen Revolt, the cleansing of the Temple, the stopping of the Daily sacrifice, the abomination of desolation by the Roman army, the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem and all places of Israel and last but not least the scattering of the power of the Holy people.

    Now an angel asked when all these things shall be and another angel gives him this emphatic and unequivocal declaration in Dan 12:7. It is a clear and concise declaration whose meaning is crystal clear. The question is answered with this declaration:-

    Dan 12:6-7 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    So the Bible declares emphatically that all these prophecies shall be fulfilled (finished) by the time the scattering of the power of the Holy people is accomplished. It also declare,s as we have seen, that the scattering of the power of the Holy people marks the END of the last curse of Leviticus 26:14-46 and hence the END of the 70 "Weeks" Gabriel spoke of (ALL 70 weeks not just 69 of them).

    So what does this mean for the FUTURISTIC "70th Week" theologies that Major adheres to? First this theology must either call Daniel and Gabriel liars or deny that Irael was totally destroyed and its people scattered among the heathen nations by the end of 74AD. Why? Because Daniel and Gabriel tie the FULL 70 "weeks" directly to the last curse of Leviticus 26 which ENDS with the scattering of the Holy people among the Heathen nations after 70x7 years (ie SEVENfold longer than the last curse which was the 70 year exile). What's more they must also declare Dan 12:7 to be FALSE teaching for it declares all these prophecies to be fulfilled by the time the Holy people have been scattered. They were all scattered by the end of 74AD but 70th week theology says Dan 12:7 is wrong because there are still many of the prophecies of Daniel 9-12 still to be fulfilled AFTER the scattering of the power of the Holy people has been accomplished.

    So once again the point is demonstrated that you can believe the words of Daniel, Moses, Gabriel and the other angels, OR you can believe the words of the 70th week theologists - BUT you cannot believe both because the words contradict each other. To believe one is true you have no option but to believe the other to be false.

    The question then becomes WHOSE words will you believe? The words of the Bible OR the words of the 70th week theologists. Whose words will you DISbelieve? For you have to declare either the words of the Bible OR the words of the "70TH week" theologists to be untrue.

    But understand this is the SAME choice you must make for ANY theology that does not accord with or is contrary to the actual words of the Bible. To believe the words of a theology that is not in accordance with the words of the Bible is to DISbelieve the words of the Bible. They can't both be right and yet say different things.

    Perhaps we can call this a "demonstration dance" and leave it at that Major. I think the people here have seen enough. If you don't mind I'll sit the next one out.
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