The Story And The Truth Are Not Always The Same

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Brother Paul, May 22, 2014.

  1. The Septuagint and the traditional Masoretic both disagree with today's CT versions but Sinaiticus and Vaticanus both agree with these earliest versions, so why do the post-Westcott/Hort translators ADD the word "son" in Exodus 11 and 12?

    During the time of Hatsheput (1482 -1425 B.C.), her husband Thutmoses II (Moses Pharaoh), and her daughter (their first born, Neferure), both died leaving her (a woman), the Pharaoh of Egypt. Her step son (who was also her nephew by Thutmoses and another lesser wife) acted as co-regent during this time. He became Pharaoh after her passing and made the empire great once again.

    Now in this historical fact the Critics lauded about. “Look here” they exclaimed “the Pharoah’s first born was a girl not a boy…thus no firstborn son!” But where did they get that “firstborn son” thing? It is not in the Bible!!! Cecil B. DeMil?

    Both the LXX and the Pre-JPS (traditional) Masoretic only say the firstborn (which Biblically means ‘the one which opens the womb’). In the case of Pharaoh Thutmoses II his first born was female and indeed his daughter passed right around the time the Bible gives for the Exodus.

    1 Kings 6:5 “And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the Lord.”

    970-966 B.C. (Temple building begins) + 480 years = 1450-1446 B.C.

    Other scholars have noted “In Psalm 136:15, we find that God “overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea." The Hebrew word translated here as "overthrew" is na'ar, also found in Exodus 14:27. It does not mean "to drown" or "to toss or tumble about as in the water" as some have attempted to assert. It simply means "shook off" as is mentioned in the margins of many Bibles (seeBrown, Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon). (Nehemiah 5:13 illustrates how na'ar should be translated: "Then I shook out the fold of my garment. . . .") Therefore, these verses simply say that God shook off the Egyptians, including Pharaoh, from their pursuit of the Israelites. These scriptures say nothing of who was drowned.

    In Exodus 14:28, the waters cover "all the army of Pharaoh," but Pharaoh himself is not mentioned. Exodus 15:19 supports this: "For the horses of Pharaoh went with his chariots and his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought back the waters of the sea upon them." Naturally, the horses and horsemen of Egypt were considered to be Pharaoh's. But this verse does not say that Pharaoh's personal horse (or chariot), or that Pharaoh himself, drowned in the sea.

    This is significant because the death of such an important person would almost certainly have been given special note in the Bible. The Old Testament contains many clear references to the deaths of enemy kings, most of them much less important than this pharaoh. Archaeology proves that Amenhotep II, if he is the Pharaoh of the Exodus, ruled for about 22 more years.”

    Comments? Thought? Where do we get "son" from...I am actually asking...???
  2. I would guess Exodus 13:
    11 "And it shall be, when the LORD o brings you into the land of the p Canaanites, as He swore to you and your fathers, and gives it to you, 12 q "that you shall 4 set apart to the LORD all that open the womb, that is, every firstborn that comes from an animal which you have; the males shall be the LORD's. 13 "But r every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb; and if you will not redeem it, then you shall break its neck. And all the firstborn of man among your sons s you shall redeem. 14 t "So it shall be, when your son asks you in time to come, saying, 'What is this?' that you shall say to him, u 'By strength of hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 15 'And it came to pass, when Pharaoh was stubborn about letting us go, that v the LORD killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of beast. Therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all males that open the womb, but all the firstborn of my sons I redeem.'
  3. The text of Exodus indicates the destruction of Pharaoh's army but does not necessarily indicate that he himself drowned. There is no reference in Egyptian history to the premature death of a Pharaoh that I could find.
  4. I find your questions interesting, Bro Paul. One would automatically assume that as Pharoah did not die in the last plague, that he was not first born. Have you seen ?
  5. Yes! Fascinating...

    Wiki offered this, that may indicate which Pharaoh and which son...

    Amenemhat was a prince of the eighteenth dynasty of Egypt; the son of Pharaoh Thutmose III.[1]

    He was the eldest son and appointed heir of the pharaoh.[1] It is possible that his mother was Queen Satiah,[2] but it has also been proposed that Neferure — the daughter of Hatshepsut and Thutmose II was married to Thutmose III. Although Neferure is identified several times as the royal wife of Thutmose III while he was the co-regent of Hatshepsut, who was serving as pharaoh, some authors think it is less likely that Neferure was the mother of Amenemhat.[3]

    The name of Amenemhat was mentioned on an inscription in the Karnak Temple in the 24th year, shortly after the death of Hatshepsut and the subsequent assumption of his father to pharaoh; he was appointed to “Overseer of the Cattle”[4] – quite an unusual title for a prince[5] – in that year. He also is depicted in the Theban tomb of his tutor, Min, Mayor of Thinis.[1]

    Amenemhat predeceased his father, who ruled for more than thirty years after Hatshepsut died...

    Aidan Dodson & Dyan Hilton, The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt, Thames & Hudson (2004, p.137)
  6. Exodus 4:32 confirms it was a son who died...
  7. I watched the Exodus Decoded on Hist. Channel and it was 2 hrs long. I think they cut the piece on what I posted because Simcha makes a case for the Reed Sea as being parted, not the Red Sea. Doesn't Thutmoses mean "brother" of Moses?
  8. No! Thutmoses is a title, not a name, and means "son of Thoth" (one of their gods)...and it is the Red Sea not the reed sea (wrong place...there is no place there where they would have been boxed in against the sea)...the sea was called the Red Sea because of the red-coloured Trichodesmium erythraeum near the water's surface...this is why the LXX translators (200 B.C.) translates the words "Red Sea" as Erythra thalassa. Yam suf literally means sea of reeds not Reed Sea which is a specific place...reeds line what we call the Red Sea in many areas.
  9. I understand that Thutmoses is believed to be a title and that, perhaps Moses cut his Eygyptian name to just "Moses" but in Exodus Decoded, it is mentioned that Thutmoses also means - brother of. Sorry what I posted cut off the full video of Exodus Decoded but Simcha Jacobovici also indicates in the original documentary that the "Reed" Sea was parted not Red Sea. I'm still looking for the full video. Memory may be failing here but I think efforts have been made in the past, that they have looked for an army drowned in the Red Sea, without success. According to scripture, Pharoah named the last plague by ordering that the first born of the Hebrews be slain, and before it could be put into effect, the Eygyptian first born were killed. What do you think of the theory that as all Eygyptian first born slept in a higher position than others, that it was a gas released that caused the deaths?
  10. Duh - I guess I read Bro Paul's post without my shot of caffeine. Moses = brother of. Hmmm. I found the full version of Exodus decoded. Please ignore my first post
  11. Pharaoh must have survived all the plagues the Lord brought upon Egypt, because of this verse....

    Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. (KJV)

    We usually think God raised Pharaoh just for this purpose of showing his power in him. But the words "raised up" really means "to raise from the dead" God protected Pharaoh through all the plagues he brought upon Egypt so that he would know that God is the God of the Jews. The Amp Bible says it best.....

    Exo 9:16 But for this very purpose have I let you live, that I might show you My power, and that My name may be declared throughout all the earth. [Rom. 9:17-24.]
    Exo 9:17 Since you are still exalting yourself [in haughty defiance] against My people by not letting them go, (AMP)
    Silk likes this.

  12. I have to admit - I never thought of that :)
  13. I forgot to say thanks CW. The reason for my confusion (I guess?) is that Jacobvici posits that the Pharoah at the time of the Exodus was Ahmoses who I thought was first born and because of that I thought Jacobvici was wrong. Hmmmmm.

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