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The Soul After Death

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Major, Nov 12, 2011.

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  1. On several other threads there seems to be a call for a thread on what comes after death.

    If you will allow me, I will attempt to give the Bible's explination of this event.

    My prayer is that it will be a teaching event that will benifit all and that it does not become a contest of opinions over who is right so that our moderators have to close it down.

    Having said that....there are various false teachings concerning this subject. IMO, the two most outstanding errors being taught today are the doctrines of SOUL SLEEP and ANNIHILATION of the wicked dead. Neither one of these teachings can be fond in the Word of God.

    So, where did they come from?? They come from the heart of man from those who question or reject the Word of God and rely on their own thoughts. Both of these ideas speak to the heart of sinful man by telling man that hell is not so bad after all. Satan wants man to believe that he will simply fall asleep at death or even if man dies in his sin......he will be completly eliminated at death.
    Both of those thoughts make hell to appear less than what the Scriptures define it to be.

    So then, what does the Bible have to say about this subject??? Our teacher on this subject is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

    Luke 16:19-31
    “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
    27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

    First of all, there are many people who say this is a "parable". But if we study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Tim. 2:15), rightly dividing the Word and comparing spiritual things to spiritual things, we see withou question that this IS NOT A PARABLE. It is the literal account of two men who lived on this earth, and their spirits are still livig today.

    How can we know this???

    First of all the Lord Jesus used a proper name......"LAZARUS".
    Then we see that the name of "ABRAHAM" is used.

    Second of all, when we read concerniong parables we see that the Scriptures introduce those parabels by telling us..."Another parable put He forth to them".

    Matt. 13:3
    Matt. 13:24
    Matt. 13:31
    Matt. 13:33
    Luke 12:16

    Now when weread the account in Luke 16 we sinply see..."THERE WAS A CERTAIN RICH MAN"

    Now when we read Luke 16 we see the words "SON REMEMBER". That alone removes the idea of "soul sleep". He had a memory.

    Then when we read verse #24, we see that the rich man was being "TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME". That tells us two things.

    1). He is able to feel pain and the word TORMENTED is plural/action and indicates that this is an on going process. Therefore there can not be an annihilation.

    2). There is FIRE in this place.

    Then when we read a little more of the Scriptures we see.................
    "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.

    That tells us that there are TWO places mentioned here.

    1) Torments, where the lost rich man was.
    2) Abraham's Bosom, Paradise where Lazarus was.

    Then there was a "fixed gulf"/ barrier between to two.

    Now, are there any people in hell today either on the "Torments" side or "Paradise side".???


    The Torments side still has all the wicked lost of all aes and they will eventually be placed into the Lake of Fire after the Great WHite Throne Judgment.

    The Paradise side of hell is now empty. When Christ rose from the dead, He and assended to heaven, He took the saved in Paradise with Him to heaven. Now, when one dies in Christ they go immediatly to be with the Lord. The wicked still go to Torments awaiting their judgment day.
    KingJ likes this.
  2. Yeah that soul sleep doctrine is getting around lol thanks for putting it on blast.

    To be separated from the body is to be present with Christ
    Major likes this.
  3. I am surprised that nobody except for pancakes has replied here. Hell is the hottest topic.

    Soul sleep makes no sense. If God does do it, it will be because hell is full. God will wake you up when there is space.

    The fact that our loving God is going to send us to hell for eternity, where there is fire, worms, weeping and gnashing of teeth is a difficult pill to swallow. Its not surprising that people want to sugar coat it.

    Annihilation doesn't make much sense either (more sense perhaps then soul sleep). God has allowed the devil and demons, freedom for SO MANY years, even though they rebelled against Him, in His very presence. Jesus never annihilated the devil, he spoke nicely and calmly even after harassment on three occasions.

    When we choose to NOT accept Jesus. We are choosing NOT to live with God. God has clearly expressed His dislike of sin and has imposed a precedent in heaven on it, namely, He does not want it in His presence, ever. Hence all mankind not covered by the blood of Jesus, cannot be in His presence. Whether man had faith unto righteousness in the coming Messiah or, like us now, looking back in faith at the resurrected Messiah, accepting is accepting and rejecting is rejecting, God is a fair judge on that. Rejecting Jesus gets you into hell where you have to pay for your sins. You have clearly expressed from the inner depth of your being that you DO NOT want to be in God's presence. Your decision WILL NOT change. God is not giving the devil and demons a second chance! He knows that they will never desire to submit to and serve Him. He obviously wishes they would, as it hurts Him! He has and always will love them. It just so happens that WE are a HIGHER creation able to choose to be with Him or not. Not surprising that many wish they were monkeys with no accountability.

    Imo, Those that go to hell will suffer. The extent of their suffering will depend on their sin. They will be away from God's literal presence for all eternity, but not necessarily 'suffering' for all eternity.

    God is in control of everything, except our decision to be with Him. God CANNOT make a being to go to hell, but He CAN make a being in His image with extremely HIGH accountability, that would require Him to be patient with them and go to His extremity of love to save them.
    Banarenth and Major say Amen and like this.
  4. It is important to understand that if the WHOLE Bible is the word of God then it is that the WHOLE of the Bible is true. Therefore the Bible MUST ALWAYS be understood in a way that ALL parts of it are rendered true and none of it contradictory. The problem with taking the rich man versus Lazarus story as a literal truth and not an illustrative story/parable is that in doing so you render other parts of the Bible to be untrue, especially as in many places it (and Jesus Himself) specifically refers to those who SLEEP in Christ (referrring to those who have died in the flesh and await the day of resurrection).

    Two (of many) passages that render the above interpretation to be incorrect are as follows:-

    1 Thess 4:13-17 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    In this passage we find a specific reference to those who SLEEP in Christ as opposed to those who are still ALIVE in Christ. It is a clear reference to those who are in Christ who die in the flesh before His coming. The thing to note is that they are NOT WITH Christ but at His coming RISE from where they are and then join with those who are still alive and THEN meet Him in the air TOGETHER. This passage declares EMPHATICALLY, not only that those who have died before His coming are ASLEEP but also that they are NOT already with Him NOR are they already in Heaven for they would then DESCEND with Him, not RISE to meet Him.

    The second passage I will mention (there are too many to mention all of them, I am only selecting a couple that make the misunderstanding clear) is:-

    Re 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

    In this passage we find, significantly, the dead in the sea are still in the sea and neither in Hell (Greek "Hades") nor in "death" (Greek "Thanatos"). In this passage what we find is the dead being given up for judgement from WHEREVER they currently are and THREE, not two, places, at least are listed. I am not yet sure why the distinction between "hades" and "thanatos" being treated as two distinct (but neither particularly pleasant) places. My first thought however is a distinction between those buried in the sea, those buried in graves and those bodies whose "whereabouts" are unknown.

    Not only is it of interest that those who died in the sea are still in the sea but that the passages that follow Rev 20:13 imply that in judging these dead from all places ONLY those whose name was NOT in the Book of Life were cast into the Lake of Fire. This implies part of that judgement was to SEE if their name was in the Book of Life or not. What it SIGNIFICANTLY does NOT say is that ALL who were given up from these places were thrown into the Lake of Fire!

    From these two passages alone it becomes clear that we cannot simplistically take the Rich man Versus Lazarus STORY as a literal truth. To render ALL parts of the Bible as true REQUIRES it be treated as an illustrative story, a parable. If we do not then we declare the above mentioned passages to be - FALSE and untrue.
  5. No surprise here Misty that we would disagree on Bible verses.

    I know that there are a lot of people who speak of Luke 16 as a PARABEL. But if we study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Tim. 2:15) rightly dividing the Word and comparing spiritual things to spiritual things we will see clearly the Luke 16 IS NOT A PARABEL.

    It is the literal account of two men who lived on this earth, and there spirits are still alive today.

    How do we know this????

    Matthew 13:3 Jesus "SPAKE MANY THINGS UNTO THEM IN PARABELS" . Then in the verses that followed He gve them the parabels of the sower and the seed as a means of helping them to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

    In Matthew 13:24 we read "ANOTHER PARABEL PUT HE FORTH UNTO THEM"---- and this is followed by the parabels of the tares and the wheat.

    In Matthew 13:31 "ANOTHER PATABEL put He forth unto them"---And then the Lord explained the comparison between the kingdom and a mustard seed.

    In Matthew 13:33 "ANOTHER PARABEL spake He unto them"----likening the kingdom of heaven to leaven, "which a woman took and hid in the three measures of meal till the whole was leavened".

    In Luke 12:16 "HE SPAKE A PARABEL unto them sayig, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully".

    Now when we compare the introduction to these PARABELS with the introduction in Luke 16 concerning HELL..................
    What we read from the Word of God is................."There WAS a CERTAIN rich man, there was a CERTAIN beggar".

    As I posted before and it is worth noting.....there is not a parabel in the Bible where a "PROPER NAME" isused except in Luke 16......"Lazarus and Abraham".
    Since Abraham is spoken of as the father of the faithful, then the faithful rest with Abraham or in Abrahams bosom, which signifies the place of rest.

    It is time for us to face a clear and very solemn fact, IF this accvount is only a PARABEL.......then there was no such person as lazarus!!!!
    IF that is true, then he never died, and the angels of God did NOT carry him to ABrahm,s bosom.
    THEREFORE..........these verse would become a falsehood and that is impossible because it is impossible for God to lie (Titus 1:2).

    We, I, must conclude then that there WAS A BEGGAR NAMED LAZARUS and he died and the angels did in fact carry him into Abrahams bosom (Paradise). The CERTAIN rich man was also real and he died and his spirit was placed in "torments" side of SHEOL/HADES.

    Now.......as 1 Thess. 4 is the explination of the Rapture where the bodies of the saints are resurrected unto the spirits, those spirits having been removed from Abrahams bosom (literal place) by the Lord Jesus and taken with Him to heaven.

    Then as to Rv. 20:13, as all Bible students know....that passage is about the SECOND Resurrection. The Resurrection of the WICKED. All the wicked dead are raised and judged.
    The bodies of the dead will be resurrected unto their spirits (have been in Torments in Sheol)
    for judgment out of the book of life.
  6. I agree with king j a lot of people. I guess take comfort. In soul sleep. BC I guess they can't wrap their mind around god Sentencing people to hell. So they create false doctrines when they can't handle the truth. Still all god requirrs is belief which is too simple. So of they refuse to believe then they condemn themselves to hell . Them some people like the idea of heaven but they don't want to follow gods commands to get there BC it takes away their “fun” and create false doctrines to suit them. Lastly some do it to make a profit and lure in credulous people. Like Christ said there will be many false prophets and Christs, so must stay in his word to be to discern truths from deceptions
  7. Agreed!

    Soul sleep/purgatory............gives what people want, A SECOND chance!

    Hebrews 9:27
    "And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment".
  8. The word “annihilation” is clear to me.

    But I am a bit confused what is the meaning of “soul sleep”.

    When I google it, it means: interval between death and judgment: that is...... the person will still face judgment.

    But based on the post above, does the “soul sleep” mentioned there meant the soul will sleep eternally?

    So, is there 2 meaning of "soul sleep"?

    1: interval between death and judgment
    2: after death, soul will sleep eternally
  9. I'm not pointing out where you disagree with me, I am pointing out where your assertions disagree with the Bible. These assertions would still disagree with the Bible no matter who makes them. It is not a personal thing from this end, "merely" an exploration of Biblical truth.

    The argument you are making here is that it is not a parable unless the word "parable" is actually used. It is a very strange argument for anybody familiar with the Bible to make. This would make the teaching of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins to be NOT a parable because the word "parable" is not used. Likewise the story of the 3 servants and 5,2 and 1 talents in Matt 25 would not be a parable because the word "parable" is not used there either. BUT the very similar story of the 10 servants and 10 pounds in Luke 19 would be a parable because there the word "parable" is used???

    As you can see the idea that it is only a parable if the word "parable" is actually used is an exceedingly poor one that is easily and quickly disproved.

    It should be noted that the CERTAIN rich man - has no name. If this is supposedly a real event why name the beggar but not name the rich man?? And how coincidental is it that the beggar has the same name as the friend Jesus actually did raise from the dead? The Pharisses and Saducces would become very familiar with the name "Lazarus" and the fact that they did not want to believe him but, in fact kill him. The use of the name "Lazarus" would drive home the truth of what Jesus said (that even if one rose from the dead they would not believe him) like no other name on Earth.

    As to Abraham's bosom this is the only place in the entire Bible the phrase is used and seeing as the "bosom" refers to that area of a person's front that lies between their arms the bosom of Abraham is gonna get rather crowded if all who die in Christ try and squeeze in there :). Remember also that at this point nobody had "died in Christ" Jesus being still very much alive with His crucifixion and resurrection still in the future.

    But if anybody were to rest in the bosom of Abraham would it not be King David and yet we find Peter declaring in Acts 13:36 not that David rests in the Bosom of Abraham but that "David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:"

    Again your argument is without foundation in the scriptures.

    Another very strange argument. By this argument YOU are making, ALL parables in the Bible are falsehoods???? Do you REALLY want to declare that all parables in the Bible are falsehoods and that therefore the Bible is full of falsehoods?? Understand that the "Lazarus" Jesus actually did raise from the dead was not a beggar at the gate of a rich man. He was not THIS "Lazarus" for THIS "Lazarus" was NOT raised from the dead in the parable. It is a NAME Jesus used in this parable to drive home to those He was addressing the truth that THEY would not believe even if a man WAS raised from the dead.

    Where in 1 Thess 4 does it say those who are ASLEEP in Christ are raised from the BOSOM OF ABRAHAM??? Where in the Bible does it declare that the "Bosom of Abraham" is an actual place where those who are ASLEEP in Christ reside??? 1 Thess 4 declares we will all be CHANGED and have spiritual bodies, not flesh and blood bodies. We do not rise to meet Him in flesh and blood bodies for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. We rise to meet Him in bodies that are like those of the Angels, not those of man. Our souls rise to be clothed in NEW bodies, not our old ones.

    You cannot just keep SAYING things as if they are true and according to scripture you actually have to SHOW and PROVE they are according to the scriptures. "As all Bible students know" is just words designed to make people ASSUME what is being said is true, it is not a substitute for actually verifying the truth of your words and THAT is something EVERY Bible student should know.

    Please tell us WHERE the Bible actually declares your statement to be true! As said before "as all Bible students know" are just words that prove nothing and are not evidence of anything, even of their OWN truth. If you want anybody here who is serious about their faith to take your words seriously this IS something you will have to do.
    LightofTabor likes this.
  10. MY comments are from the Bible and are supported by the Scriptures. I do feel the need to explain anything to you. I posted the Scriptures and then listed my thoughts.

    You are free to disagree but I refuse to be drawn into another he said she said argument with you that will lead to nothing but confrontation and argument.
    It seems to me your only purpose is to disagree and insult others by your accusations of their ignorance. It is appaling to me that you feel the need to insult others instead of just posting your thoughts and beliefs.

    That is what I did. No mention was made of your intelligence neither will I stoop to your level to do so now.
    I can not take the time to do Bible study for YOU. If you desire to know the answers to your questions, simply do some reqading and there ye shall find it as have millions of others have.

    Now you have a good day and may the Lord bless you.
  11. Sould sleep is a Catholic term used to describe their teaching of "purgatory". That is an un-spesified time between death and judment where one has the ability to do good deeds to earn his salvation.

    It is in no way Scriptural and should be rejected completely.
  12. :confused::confused:. I take it this means you won't be providing any Biblical authority to verify your claims. Please understand it is not sufficient to simply quote scripture. The scripture must also actually support the claim you are making.

    I am not sure why it is so terrible that I compare your statements to what the Bible actually says. After all I do not expect any serious follower of Christ to simply believe and accept as true anything EITHER of us says no matter how much we might want them to. I expect them to do as Jesus and the Apostles have taught us to do and check for themselves if what we say accords with the truth of the written word of God.

    I ask of others no more than I expect of MYSELF and that is to prove the veracity of their claims and statements by the written word of God (as opposed to simply quoting scriptures that do not) when they do not seem to be in accordance with it. It does not offend me if people ask me to show them or explain to them or even question the Biblical authority by which I speak. I find it difficult to understand why it should offend any other believer in Christ to do the same. It is what we are expected to do.

    It is not necessary that we argue. You have made statements and observations, and I have made statements and observations. I am sure those here have Bibles of their own and can reach their own conclusions about the statements and observations we have BOTH made. But where I find an argument to be strange I do not think it "disrespectful" to make the observation that I find it strange and explain why. I am sure others will decide for themselves whether or not they also find it strange and reach their own conclusions.
    LightofTabor likes this.
  13. I should perhaps clarify here that the "sleep" the Bible (and specifically Jesus Himself) speaks of is a period of what can perhaps be best described as "non-awareness" between the death in the flesh and the resurrection at the second coming of Christ. To the person it is as if no time has passed as happens in regular sleep also. I believe this is why Jesus used the analogy of sleep when referring to it.

    It is not a period in which anything changes for the person. There is no opportunity for anything to change, they "awake" as they died, unaware even that time has passed. Indeed we must understand that it is the Lord Himself who has created the "time-space continuum" in which we live and is in complete control of it. We must be careful not to assume that what we see as the "passage of time" applies in "eternity" and the Kingdom of Heaven. The Lord does mind-bending stuff with time as Psalm 22 demonstrates. A Psalm by Christ written around 1,500 years BEFORE He was born and at the same time AFTER His suffering and death on the Cross.

    To US they sleep as time moves on. But what is the passage of time to the Lord of ALL time?? Not "I WAS, I AM, and I WILL BE". Just "I AM". ALWAYS and at ALL TIMES just - "I AM".
  14. Misty...you are indeed a confusing person. You ask for Biblical authority but give none for yourself. Many of us have posted the Scriptures but somehow you seem to ignore them.
    I give the explination accepted by every Biblical school of higher learning and you rejected those as given and replace with your opinion AND NO BIBLICAL AUTHORITY.

    You reject almost all Bible given teaching to you and then instead of discussing them......YOU INSULT, DEMEAN AND ACCUSE THOSE TO WHO YOU SPEAK WITH. You question our intellegence and our sincerity and that is in-excusable my friend. I am posting below a sinopcise of your comments as compared to BIBLICAL FACTS.

    In the thread "Prophesy vs. Expectations" comment #48 I disagreed with you about Rev. 2:27 and rejected Christ as the focus when you stated the focus was NOT Jesus Christ. The context of verse 26 & 28 makes it impossible to be anyone else.
    My Biblical authority is Rev. 2:26-28......
    "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- 27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'-- as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star."

    Psalms 2:9
    You will break them with a rod of iron
    you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

    Revelation 2:27

    "that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father."

    Revelation 12:5

    "She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

    Revelation 19:15...................
    "Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty".

    In the same thread comment #52 I disagree with you about Daniel's 70th week and you rejected it outright.
    My Biblical authority is Daniel 9:24-27...........
    Daniel 9:24-27 (New King James Version)

    24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

    All of the interpretations of this prophecy which are commonly given are forced to make certain interpretive assumptions and/ or leave certain details of the passage unexplained in order to stand.

    From a study of Jeremiah's prophecy Daniel had calculated that the time of Israel's captivity (seventy years) was about to end (Dan.9:1-2). Interrupting his fervent prayer in this regard the angel Gabriel "informed" him (9:22) of coming events related to the people of Israel. The content of that prophecy, recorded in Daniel 9:24-27.

    Jesus made express reference to Daniel's "abomination of desolations" as the identifying sign of the "great tribulation" (Mt.24:15). But since this phrase ("desolating abominable idol") occurs also in Daniel 11:31 and 12:11 it must be determined which is Jesus' exact point of reference. All sides acknowledge that Daniel 11:31 refers to the altar or idol of Zeus that Antiochus Ephiphanes placed in the holy of holies of the Jerusalem temple in June, 168 B.C. Since Jesus' reference to Daniel's idol was spoken of as yet future (to Him), this cannot be His point of reference. It seems that the idol of Daniel 12:11 is the very same as that of 9:27, and in both cases the thought connects the ending of sacrifices with the abomination of desolation. It would be difficult to demonstrate any reference to 12:11 as over against 9:27; the two speak of the same. In His Olivet discourse, then, Jesus makes specific reference to Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks.

    The prophecy, then, concerns a definite period of "seven sevens." Seven periods of days or months leave no room for the fulfillment of the details of the prophecy and would render meaningless Jesus' reference to the seventieth seven as yet future (to Him). Given the details of the prophecy this "seventy periods of seven" must refer to periods of years. No other time period would allow enough time to embrace all the events specified. Furthermore, Daniel had been thinking in terms of periods of seven years, specifically ten of them (Dan.9:1-2). This was the length of the captivity determined by his people's violation of the sabbatic year (cf. 2 Chron.36:21; Jer.25:11-12). Israel had neglected precisely seventy sabbatical cycles; to put it another way, their disobedience continued 490 years. The time specified by Gabriel to Daniel here is very appropriately the same. It breaks down as follows:

    Seven sevens = 49 years
    Sixty-two sevens = 434 years
    One seven = 7 years
    Seventy sevens = 490 years
    Daniel's prophecy concerns a time frame involving 490 years.
    I encourage all to go to http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/eschatology/daniel.htm for a complete and thourgh teaching on the 70 Weeks of Daniel

    I disagree with you about Jesus not sitting on the throne of David in the same thread and comment #55.
    My Biblical authority is ................
    Luke 1:32-33
    “He (Jesus) shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end”.

    Matthew 1:1............
    “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham”. Matthew 1:1
    So Christ then was the descendant (or seed) of David but also he was the son of God as was promised to David".

    Luke 1:35
    “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God”.

    The promise stated that David would see his descendant (Christ) sitting on his throne, the throne of David in Jerusalem and that his Kingdom would continue forever. This is to happen in the future when Jesus Christ returns to the earth to establish that kingdom.

    Acts 13:32-34......................
    “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again… And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David“. Acts 13:32-34
    David himself realized that this covenant would be fulfilled through one greater than himself and he spake of this in one of his Psalms which the apostle Paul later picks up on:

    Psalm 89:34-37..............
    “My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven”.

    Psalm 132:11...................
    “THE LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.”

    Psalm 110:1....................
    "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

    Acts 2:29-36...................
    “THE LORD (God) said unto my Lord (Davids seed), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”. “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ”.

    Clearly then, the Bible teaches that David must be resurrected, that Jesus Christ must come back to the earth to sit upon Davids and set up a Kingdom which will last forever. This will be a re-establishment of the Kingdom of God (over which David ruled). God told the last king, King Zedekiah, this:

    Ezekiel 21:26-27...........................
    “Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown… I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it (The Kingdom of Israel): and it shall be no more, until he (Jesus Christ) come whose right it is; and I will give it him”.

    In your "Reality Benders" and then later confirmed in comment #74 in Prophecy vs Expectation, you stated that past civilizations created nuclear bombs and destroyed each other.
    My Biblical authority is Genesis 1:1-2.........
    1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

    Genesis 7:4................

    4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."

    I could not find a Bible authority for a NUCLEAR conflict that destoyed man to list for you as your BIBLICAL AUTHORITY.

    In the thread "Theorizing John 14:6 you rejected justificatiion by faith and said that justification was by keeping the law in comment #33.
    Your comment was......"For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not."
    You used Rom 2:12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.) as your Biblical authority.

    But is it a basis for your conclusion or have your falsely misenterpreted it meaning????

    My Biblical authority is found in Romans 3:20
    "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight . . . "

    Romans 4:3...............
    "For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'".

    Romans 5:1...........
    "Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . "

    Romans 4:5.........
    "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness".

    Gal. 2:16.....
    "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

    Phil. 3:9.......
    "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

    Now as to Romans 2:12.
    The Jews has sinned IN THE LAW, tghat is they had the revealed Word of God and they prided themelves on it possession------YET THEY SINNED! They then would be "JUDGED BY THE LAW", by the light that they had. They, the Jews, the "hearers of the law "(vs #13) could not be justified for they had NOT DONE THE LAW. In other words, simply hearing the law is not meeting all of its requirements. If they expected to be saved by the law, it would require something more than just hearing. That means the basis of your Biblical authority of Romans 2:12 is not valid as compared to the meaning of the verse itself. WE know that to be true because the LAW NEVER SAVED ANYONE!

    Now I do realize that this is a long post. I felt as though it needed to be in order to answer what YOU have already stated and to confront your comments to me of.............................................
    "I am pointing out where your assertions disagree with the Bible" (Your opinion, not founded)
    "It is a very strange argument for anybody familiar with the Bible to make" (That is an obviouse attempt to call me stupid, even though veiled).
    "Again your argument is without foundation in the scriptures." (Your opinion, not founded)
    "You cannot just keep SAYING things as if they are true and according to scripture you actually have to SHOW and PROVE they are according to the scriptures".
    (Thus to comply with your comment the length of this post. I must insist that you as well follow your own comment and post Bible verses that support your opinion...ie, "Nuclear combat in the past").
    IF YOU were to remove the accusations, personal comments and the habit of trying to make others look bad/wrong instead of simply speaking to the subject in question, I think that we all could be better friends instead of the continuing confrontations that exist.
    If you read carfully this post, you will not see anything personal said about you, and no accusatioons are made and no assumpation and "veiled" comments that refer to you. Only what you have said and how the Bible disagrees with your comments.

    I hope and pray that we can be friends and brothers in Christ so that we can TOGETHER get out the Word of God to a lost and dying world so that those reading can be convicted of their sin and confess and repent. If that can not be done and you do not have the ability in your heart to do those things, and work together for the cause of Christ, then PLEASE do not respond to any of my comments and I will honor that request as well of yours. Yes, I know you have the right to post anything you want that seems wrong to you and I feel the same way......but in this case I feel it best to read, ignore and let someone else do the work for us believing that there are many wonderful Christians on this site that have the ability to notice error and can address it.

    Now on a personal note, I simple to not have the energy and health to fight battles and confrontations such as we have had. There is just to much other stuff that is more important than argueing over things on a computer. That is not what I was called to do by the Lord. I was called to get out the Word of God not to argue with other believers.

    I know you will want the last word so I give it to you my friend as a Thanksgiving gift".
  15. I think people can see for themselves that I am constantly backing up my statements with relevant Biblical references and quotes that actually support the things I am saying. I will let my postings on CFS speak for themselves on that matter.

    I do note you seem to have the time and energy to sift through pages and pages and months and months of forum postings selectively cutting snippets from here and there and pasting them here. As I said above I am happy for my postings and our past conversations to speak for themselves, but not in your out-of-context, selectively mixed, and rather innaccurate version of them here. If people want to, I highly recommend they go back to the actual threads and conversations themselves where they can read (in context) the full postings and conversations and come to their own conclusions and judgements.

    Same with my Reality Bender Videos which are all freely viewable on my YouTube "Islandbard" channel. They are there for people to view and THINK about for themselves and provide plenty of quotes, references and keywords for people to verify and investigate these matters for themselves and reach their own conclusions. After all that is their intended purpose.

    But it should be noted that where I speak of existant archeological evidence and findings I cite ARCHEOLOGICAL sources, quotes and images. Where I speak of what the Lord has revealed I cite and quote Biblical references. The evidence of advanced technology in ancient times is ARCHEOLOGICAL evidence being dug up and discovered by archeologists. The verifications therefore come from archeological sources. But where I might compare what archeologists are discovering with what the Bible says then I will provide verification of what the Bible says ALONG with verification of what the Archeologists are finding. I am sure those viewing the Reality Bender videos will note the information for them comes from a vast variety of sources as they are comparing what the Bible says with what man himself is discovering about the actual reality he lives in.

    But I am more than happy for people to judge my RB Videos for themselves. In fact I encourage them to view them and THEN to FURTHER INVESTIGATE these things for themselves. I don't actually WANT people to believe ME, I want them to believe the LORD and the EVIDENCE that they can see and read for themselves.

    It is for people to decide for THEMSELVES what to believe, not have people TELL them what to believe and go crook at them if they do not. I, for one, would have it no other way. I am not here to argue with people even if they want to argue with me. I am here to help people make a FULLY informed and carefully thought out decision about WHO and WHAT they will and will not believe. If vital information is not being made known to them or incorrect information is being given to them I think that Christ would want His servants to ensure the situation is remedied. As a servant of Christ I speak where I feel led to speak and remain silent where I feel led to remain silent. It is no more complex or confusing than that.
  16. At times Misty when we are flat of our back and cannot walk, time is all we have on our side.

    We shall now move on to bigger and better things and may the Lord be with you.
  17. Coming back to Major's original thread.

    Soul sleep is another commonly taught doctrine by many of the cults. They often base their doctrine on one very specific scripture - Dan 12:13. They interpret the word rest as "sleep" and that is where they get their doctrine from. They fail to contextualize the scripture and place it in harmony with the rest of the Bible in regards to the fate of the soul after physical death.

    Jesus when He spoke to the thief on the cross said that He would see Him in paradise - inferring that when the thief died, he would be released from his earthly bondage, forgiven of his sins and would be with Christ in paradise -aka heaven.
    Major likes this.
  18. Where does Jesus talk of this sleep as a period of non-awareness? John 11:11 is a specific reference to physical death, nothing at all to do with the soul. Please enlighten us the exact scripture's where Jesus specifically refers to what you stated above. Where does He use this so called analogy??? Where does He use the word sleep and soul in the same context???

    The references in 1 Thess are contextually in regards to the ressurection of the dead and the word sleep refers to physical death - this by the way was written by Paul and not a saying of Jesus Christ. Please only quote direct references to Chist using your analogy.

    The passage in Luke 16, if you want to refer to it as a parable, is then the ONLY parable in the Gospels where actual names are given to the characters. This is one of the reasons that the major Biblical theologians reject the passage as a parable and acknowledge it as an actual event which was narrated by Jesus Himself. The only people who insist that it is a parable are those who believe in "soul sleep" because it refutes the idea of soul sleep completely.

    The apostle John did not see much sleeping going on when he had his revelation of heaven. In fact he saw millions of souls worshiping God in heaven

    Rev 6:9

    And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

    Rev 6:10

    And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

    Rev 7:9

    After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.

    Rev 7:10

    And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

    They do not seem to be sleeping, in fact they are very much aware of what is going on. Please note that John saw this and in terms of temporal reference it happened before the 2nd coming of Christ.
    Major likes this.
  19. Yes my friend, good point and also............sleep is sleep and death is the end. The body dies but the soul lives on.

    Some say that Luke 16 is a parable, and should not be taken literally, and what our Lord said really has a hidden meaning. But this cannot be true, for several reasons. St. Luke, as a historian, wrote literally and factually, not cryptically. He surely would have explained the parable if it were not to be taken literally. When our Lord uses parables, they are either references to masters and servants or guests at a feast, which are clearly figurative in meaning, referring to God, us, and the heavenly feast. There are also fishing nets, mustard trees, and so forth, that are obviously not real life events. The most important part of the parable is their clear underlying meaning to us Christians today. The meaning is either explained by the writers, or is quite clear from the context. It was only the Jews in Jesus' day that could not understand some of these parables, because their hearts and minds were closed in order that the Gentiles might also get to hear the word of God (Rom. 11:8). This parable is not like this - all the actions are real human ones, and the Jewish culture at the time would not take it with the pinch of salt some people think it requires. Finally, the question must be asked, "If Jesus knew something was false, would He use it deliberately to get a point across, while pretending it was true, and not explaining it ?"

    My answer - He didn't. When we look at this story, there is no need to interpret it at all - it is quite clear. The apparent meaning doesn't need to be explained away. The rich man died, as did Lazarus. The rich man went to Hades, the realm of the dead. Lazarus was taken to Abraham's bosom - paradise.
    Kevin likes this.
  20. The first thing to clarify is that "Sleep" is by its very definition a period of unawareness, a period of non-conciousness. Jesus merely has to use the word for sleep for sleep IS the state of not being concious or aware. Jesus refers to physical (flesh and blood) death as "Sleep" in John 11:11-14 when speaking of Lazarus (the real one). Note He did not say Lazarus is resting in Abraham's Bosom, He said he "sleepeth". Because it confused the disciples He had to explain that He means Lazarus was dead. Nor did He say that the BODY of Lazarus sleepeth but that LAZARUS himself sleepeth. Nothing in this passage declares Jesus was speaking of ONLY the body of Lazarus. Such a claim is not supported by the scripture.

    As to 1 Thess this is not knowledge Paul could have EXCEPT that Christ revealed it to him. Considering Peter also referred to those who had died (eg King David) as being asleep it is safe to infer that ALL the apostles were conveying what Jesus had taught them, which is that those who die in the flesh are asleep until resurrection. NOTE it is referring to the period between physical (flesh and blood) death and resurrection, not the period AFTER resurrection. Why that is important to keep in mind will hopefully become clearer in a minute.

    Firstly it should be noted that "a certain rich man" does NOT get a name. Strange ommission to name one but not the other especially as the other just happens to share the same name as somebody Jesus DID bring back from the dead. Even more sigificantly "a certain rich man" also features in the parable at Luke 12:16 and Luke 16:1. Indeed the parable at Luke 16:1 begins with the exact same words "There was a certain rich man ..."

    But tell me where in the Bible does it declare that a parable shall not contain any proper names?? Jesus told many parables that were not recorded. By what authority do you declare that NONE of the parables told by Jesus, recorded AND UNRECORDED contained proper names EXCEPT this one?

    Firstly lets deal with the "multitude". John does not see these until the 6th seal is broken - not before. Therefore there is a period of time when the multitude are NOT there, and then they are ALL there. But note what the elder says about them (Rev 7:15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    Here he is telling John that THIS multitude are NOT in the Bosom of Abraham but are WITH Christ and the Lord serving them. BUT we know from 1 Thess that those who sleep in Christ and those still alive only join Christ and be with Him AT HIS COMING, to be with Him for ever more. We also know from John 14:3 that Christ Himself declared that He will RETURN to take us to be with Him, where He is. This accords with 1 Thess 4 (and 1 Cor 15:51-52) perfectly. Therefore contrary to your assertion, Revelation places the multitude in Heaven AFTER Christ returns and the "rapture"/resurrection, not before. Nor does it place them in the "bosom of Abraham". Indeed this "bosom of Abraham" is mentioned in one place ONLY in the entire Bible. And that is in the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus.

    Now about those souls UNDER THE ALTAR (not in the Bosom of Abraham). We note these are noticed after the 5th seal but before the 6th seal. We also note they are NOT in the Bosom of Abraham. Something else we note is they are not EVERYBODY who has died in Christ but those who have been KILLED for their testimony. And they are waiting for those who will be LIKEWISE KILLED for their testimony. I note the Darby Literal translation says "until both their fellow-bondmen and their brethren, who were about to be killed as they, should be fulfilled." (Young's Literal Translation has "who are about to be killed -- even as they. ")
    These are a special preordained group awaiting a special preordained time which requires they all be killed. THIS section of Revelation gives no indication of why this special group who are killed in a certain way are waiting. HOWEVER we do note from REV 20 that there is indeed a special group who are beheaded for their testimony of Christ who are raised in a special limited RESURRECTION before anybody else (the first resurrection) to reign with Christ for 1,000 years. There is nothing that prevents those under the altar from being this very same group awaiting those who are to shortly be beheaded and so join them.

    As ONLY those beheaded for Christ are raised at that time and not everybody who has died in Christ and nobody else is raised until AFTER the 1,000 years are finished the Bible declares this 1,000 years occurs BEFORE His coming and this special limited resurrection BEFORE the "rapture".

    But the bottom line is still that both Jesus and the Apostles declare as ASLEEP those who have died in Christ before He returns (or are otherwise resurrected) and both the living and the dead in Christ are raised to join with Him for the journey to the NEW Earth (the place He has prepared and returns to take us there).
    LightofTabor likes this.
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