The Role Of The Holy Spirit As A Witness Excludes Himself From Worship

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by TalkJesus, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Scripture defines the role of a faithful witness from a false witness.

    The guideline for man in witnessing is here:

    John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

    John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

    Proverbs 25:27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory.

    To speak of yourself in seeking your own glory is unrighteousness.

    Now look at what scripture says how the Holy Spirit will witness.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me:

    So how can believers be led by the Spirit of God to say anything that the Spirit of truth would not lead them to say in worship of the Son?

    How can believers be led by the Spirit of truth to worship the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit would not lead them to do that in worship?

    Before anybody misquote Jesus Christ about "God is a Spirit", read this:

    And if you think God the Father is "Spirit" and does not have an image that can be seen, then you better read these scriptural reproofs.

    The Use of the Invisible God In the Bible at this link below:

    The Son of God Had A Celestial Body Before Incarnation at this link below:

    The Son of God Has Seen God The Father at this link below:

    So don't go taking "God is a Spirit" as validating worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son because it is not supported by scripture at all.

    The Holy Spirit as a Witness cannot lead a believer to speak of the Holy Spirit in seeking the glory of the Holy Spirit for that would mean there is unrighteousness in God.... and we know there is no unrighteouness in God.

    Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, but scripture SPECIFICALLY told us how to come to God the Father in worship of Him and that is by honouring & glorifying the Son. There is no other way because that is what the Holy Spirit is actually leading believers to do in worship of God the Father by way of the Son that the Spirit would exclude Himself from that worship.
  2. I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Regardless of the ridiculous amount of text and references you are throwing at this, the Holy Spirit is also God, and as such He is worthy of worship.
    I worship the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    I don't remember anywhere is the Apostles Creed where it says "oh, BTW you can ignore the third guy".
    For a person of God who you say warrants no honor, God certainly dislikes those who speak poorly of Him, for blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the ONLY sin for which there is no forgiveness.
    Silk likes this.
  3. Which was stated in the last paragraph of that OP.

    You have no scripture validating that practise from the creed of it being the will of God to do. That's the reproof.

    It is NOT about Him NOT being worthy. It is about His role as a Divine Witness.

    By what spirit are you led by to worship the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit in you is not speaking of Himself in seeking His own glory, but of the Son in seeking His glory and by Him the glory of God the Father in worship?

    That's your conundrum and that is why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in how to honour the Father ( John 5:23) nor in glorifying the Father ( John 13:31-32).

    Did Jesus ignored the third guy when it comes to honouring & glorifying the Father? John 5:23 & John 13:31-32

    Again, the Holy Spirit does not want honour when He is leading believers to honour the Father by honouring the Son.
  4. And still - I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish.
    What virtue are you promoting?
    Having said all of this - what have you accomplished?

    This discussion has no more bearing on spiritual growth than arguing over what grade of steel was used in the nails on Jesus' cross.
  5. Jesus prophesied of the broadening of the way by false prophets that are ecumenical in nature as the creeds were done: Matthew 7:13-16 which introduced worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. The results for doing so is by not heeding His words and thus many a houses are falling: Matthew 7:24-27

    Jesus really meant what He said about how we approach and come to God the Father in worship in gettting to know Him: John 14:6-7

    To climb up any other way to God the Father other than by way of the Son in ANYTHING: prayer, fellowship, or worship is a work of iniquity: John 10:1 & John 10:7

    Which is why Luke's account of Matthew 7:13-27 is by striving to enter through that strait gate to avoid that work of iniquity: Luke 13:24-30 because YOU CANNOT honour the Father by any other way as that is the STANDARD of judgment raised on every believer ( John 5:22-23 ) So take heed and fear.

    As friendship with the world is enmity with God, the "holy laughter" movement was ecumenical in nature as bearing the fruit of that false prophet in its gathering grapes of thorns & figs of thistles when occurring in Catholic & Protestant churches in 1994 and thus no longer a Pentecostal/ Charismatic phenomenon.

    The ecumenical creeds that introduced the wrong way to come to God in worship by broadening the way of including the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son has enabled spirits of the antichrist to come in and take that spotlight that is on the Holy Spirit for themselves in the "holy laughter" movement and thus proving to be a corrupt tree bringing forth an evil fruit. So you either make the whole tree good by narrowing the way back to the Son in worship, or churches will continue to suffer a thief to break through and bear an evil fruit. Matthew 7:17-23

    Ask yourself this question: why is it in all of these fanatical movement of the "Spirit", whenever they wish to invoke the phenomenon again, they address the Holy Spirit in worship, but the devil answers?

    That is because that is not the right way to come to God the Father PERIOD as Jesus really is the only Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, SO HOW can anyone address the Holy Spirit in worship?

    Jesus warned believers what will cause them to fall in these movements of the "Spirit" and that is by broadening the way in coming to God the Father in worship other than by way of the Son.

    Cause = Effect. Broadening the way = houses falling. Corrupt tree = evil fruits.

    Answer: narrow the way back to the Son in coming to God the Father to worship Him.

    Otherwise, Catholics are not the only ones that gloss over scripture as if Jesus did not really mean that when Protestants are doing the same thing.

    That is HOW BAD things are now as the way to God is narrow in relating to Him through the Bridegroom and only a few seem find it.

    Only God can help the elect see that truth to look to Him as the author & finisher of our faith to depart from this iniquity.
  6. TJ. I can safely assume you are trying to put a theological strait jacket on speaking in tongues? You actually think that when a person speaks in tongues it is the Holy Spirit speaking to itself? Do you also think that the gift of healing is the Holy Spirit healing itself?
    Look. When the gift of tongues is manifested, it is OUR spirit speaking to God directly. This line of communication bypasses our emotional and psychologcal hangups. And allows us to confess those things we may be unwilling or unable to bring out into the open.
    You are clearly afraid of the gifts of the Spirit and therefore are attempting to build a theological box to stuff God into so YOU will feel more comfortable.
    Just because YOU lack the discernment to tell a "familiar" spirit from the Holy Spirit doesn't mean everyone else does.
    Sure TR. The spiritual realm can be a little scary. But I KNOW my Master's voice now....and He's no "familiar" spirit.
  7. The gift of speaking in tongues is useless unless there is a translator. Hear me very well - God commands you. Stop this attack here.
  8. If the Holy Spirit is part of God, isn't worshipping God the same thing?
  9. I think that speaking in tongues can be unsettling to those not used to that in a worship service. Most probably such manifestations should not be present when visitors are there to witness it and risk being driven away. In this way I can see where Christ risks being eclipsed as I stated in another thread. But, if there are no "newcomers" present, then no harm done. Personally, I do not speak in tongues in public(church). I don't mind if others do. That is between them and God. I pray in tongues periodically in private.
    Confusing the gifts of the Holy Spirit with the Holy Spirit Himself seems a bit strange and seems to be a smokescreen to hide one's discomfort. I believe bigotry towards those who believe the gifts are still present is in error. Just because you've never witnessed such things doesn't mean God needs your approval.
    Silk likes this.
  10. Silk. I was able to edit this post in time. My apologies for misunderstanding you.
  11. I am not uncomfortable about people speaking in tongues and believe the Holy Spirit's gifts continue to this day. I have heard recordings done of speaking in tongues and when neither the person doing the speaking nor those who heard it understand what is said - I don't see the point
    Rusty likes this.
  12. I was not speaking to the speaking in tongues but rather that I thought the thread was an attack on the Holy Ghost. Sorry, if I wasn't clear.
    Rusty likes this.
  13. No need, truly.
  14. That is a part of it, but not the primary reproof.

    It is narrowing the way we worship God the Father in worship by honouring the Son in glorifying the Son and by Him, we are honouring & glorifying the Father which is what the Holy Spirit in us is leading us to do in worship as that is the mind of Christ we are to have.

    That's Himself as you use it in that sentence.

    The use of "itself" was used in the KJV when the Holy Spirit serves as a means by which He is not doing the intercessions directly Himself but by the man, Christ Jesus, knowing the mind of the Spirit.

    But getting back to point: It is not we who speak but the Holy Spirit that speaks in us when we speak normally ( Matthew 10:20) or in tongues ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 )when bearing witness of the Son in seeking His glory ( John 15:26-27). Now that Jesus is at the right hand of God the Father in making these intercessions for us ( Romans 8:34 ) as the words of the Father and everything He has is now the Son's ( John 16:13-15 ) then that is how Jesus is serving as the Good Shepherd in leading us through the Holy Spirit within us when the Holy Spirit hears, that He speaks from the Son.

    So that is why tongues will not be manifesting by God to be speaking back to God when He is speaking what He hears from God: not from us.

    Not applicable when it is the Holy Spirit manifesting tongues as it is the Holy Spirit speaking what He hears.

    Matthew 6:7-8 reproves any such notions that tongues has to be used at all for the Father to know anything from us.

    No. That is not what Paul said tongues were for: 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 Plus, this often misuse verse 1 Corinthians 14:14 is leaving out what Paul was actually meaning as he has set precedent here: 1 Corinthians 14:13 That means what Paul was saying in verse 14 was that he was praying while he was speaking in tongues for someone to interpret the tongue he waqs saying as manifested by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 14:15 confirms that it was never a prayer language at all.

    By His grace & by His help, it is more alerting everyone to the cause of the holy laughter movement happening acroiss the denomenations which is why it is important to heed the reproof in the OP by narrowing the way we come to God the Father in worshipping Him and that is by way of the Son in honouring Him: John 5:23 The moment any believer stops honouring the Son, they are no longer honouring the Father that sent Him.

    Believers have gained tongues without interpretation by climbing up another way. Instead of asking the Son at that throne of grace, they ask the Spirit directly, going around the Son & thereby dishonouring Him as being the only Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. By climbing up another way ( John 10:1 ) is the result of believers following a stranger's voice as it comes with no interpretation ( John 10:5 ).

    There are alot of scriptures to validate my concerns as they are to serve as a warning to all to give pause and ask Jesus at that throne of grace for discernment as it can only be done by the scripture in testing the spirits.
  15. 1 John 4:1 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 Isaiah 8:19 1 Timothy 4:1-2 2 Timothy 2:16 2 Timothy 2:24-26

    I agree that God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips as it should come with interpretation which is why when it does not come with interpretation, it should be proven as not being of God and not rationalizing it away as being a prayer language.
    Rusty likes this.
  16. This was not an attack on the Holy Ghost but the unscriptural practise of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son when the Holy Spirit as God and serving as a Witness of the Son in seeking His glory ( John 16:13-14 & John 15:26 ) would not be leading believers to do that in worship but to honour the Son in glorifying Him and by doing so, honour & glorify God the Father ( John 15:27 & 1 Corinthians 2:2 & John 13:31-32 & Philippians 2:5-11 & Colossians 3:16-17 ).

    Jesus is really the only way to come to God the Father in worship of Him as well as prayer & fellowship. John 14:6-7

    That is how we get to know God personally and that is through the Bridegroom as we are to be the bride to our first love.

    Seeking the face of the Bridegroom in resting in Him and in waiting for Him is how believers are not going out to the markets in all of these movements of the "Spirit" which the holy laughter movement has happened across the denomenations in 1994 because they did not honour God the Father in worship when they had stopped honouring the Son.
  17. Counting to ten.... Say what?
  18. What did Jesus say that the Holy Spirit will do?

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me:

    #1) He will not speak of Himself.

    #2) He shall glorify the Son.

    How can the Holy Spirit glorify the Son?

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

    #1) The Holy Spirit will testify of the Son and thus leading us to do the same thing.

    Therefore, the Holy Spirit will be leading us to not speak of Himself, but of the Son in seeking His glory. By leading us to gllorify the Son, we are glorifying God as God but only in the Son.

    John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

    By honouring the Son, we honour the Father. When we do not honour the Son, we are no longer honouring the Father. That is how believers will be judged is by how we honour God by which is Whom the Spirit is leading us to do.

    John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    That is the mind of Christ we are to have whenever we come to the Father in worship of Him which is by way of the Son.

    Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    God has exalted Him above every other name and it is by glorifying the Son is how God is glorified and that is in Him.

    Paul stressed that even in fellowship:

    1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    Songs in worship of God the Father is on the Son.

    Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    This is what the Holy Spirit in us is leading us to do as Jesus has said and there are no scriptural validation for the practise of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son when the Holy Spirit would never lead us to do that at all.

    The Son of God is called the Bridegroom because as we are the bride, He is how we come to God personally in relating to Him in all things as He is our first love even in worship.
  19. OK, now you finally get to your agenda as Glomung correctly observed.

    You are rejecting the use of the sign gifts.

    Why in the world did you just not say so to begin with my brother???
    Silk likes this.

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