The reduction of the Gospel.

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by geralduk, Jul 8, 2015.

  1. There is a strange concept that seems to pervade many of God's people.It is the idea that to be BORN again is the be all and end all of our Salvation.Wonderfull though it is to be truly "begotten of the Father. ..." It should be remembered it is but the getting out of Egypt.
    For they were born in a day by the word of God and by the blood of a lamb and by the power of God.
    We are not only saved FROM but saved TO.
    They were baptised with "the baptism of Moses" then sanctified or separated from the world and unto God.
    Then they came to the banks of the river Jordan and to the borders of the land that was promised to them.
    How long did it take to get from Egypt to the promised land ?
    The quick answer is 40 years.
    The truth is it took but 40 DAYS.
    It was only because they did it enter through unbelief that they then went in circles as it were for 40 years.
    Paul warns us not to be like them who were given as our examples who entered not in through unbelief.
    I used to think unbelief was just simply not believing God.
    It is not. It also involves believing the wrong message.
    Getting out of Egypt is but the 'S' of our" so great Salvation"
    "Little children ye know the father and your sins are forgiven" 1 John
    But what about what follows?
    Young men the word of God dwells or abides in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one.Is that not more wonderful and makes our Salvation greater ?
    Then what about "ye fathers ye know him who is from the beginning"
    That is the Creator.
    Men no longer believe God as to his account of the beginning but rather have believed the world and it's ideas that deny God his due honour.
    How can you know Him who is from the beginning if you do not believe him who in the beginning said "Let there be light........."?
    Be careful then who you give your ears to and be not like them who entered not in because of unbelief.
    Our so great a salvation does not end at being BORN AGAIN. But also includes to become more than a conquerer. What then is More than a conquerer?
    In Christ
    Cturtle and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  2. Hello Gerald,
    Unbelief that far to many Christians fall prey to is fear and doubt and not accepting that what the word of God says is true and for them as well.

    2 men of God went in and all the doubt and unbelief of the others could not stop the two but it sure did stop them. That in it self should wake up some folks.
    Thanks for the awesome post
    God Bless
    Cturtle likes this.
  3. Thanks for bringing this up, geralduk. The importance of this truth can't be overstated: the fact that not only do we need to get out of Eygpt, we need to enter into the land and take up our inheritance. I find that a huge test. In order to go in for the inheritance I need to value the inheritance, I need to love divine things. As @Fish Catcher Jim has helpfully brought in, we needn't be afraid of the giant sons of Anak (Numbers 13:33), or any of the many difficulties and doubts that the enemy would try to introduce into our minds.

    I think the title of this thread, "The reduction of the Gospel", is very telling. It's vital that the gospel is not reduced to initial soul salvation (wonderful though that is) and nothing beyond that. Recently, I heard it said that the gospel goes out from the House, and ever since then when I've been called upon to preach the gospel, I've had that in my mind. The end result should be, not only that souls are saved from hell, but that sons are secured for the Father's house.
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  4. As I pointed out unbelief is not just believing God it is also believing the wrong message.
    "In the day ye eat of that tree ye shall surely die"
    the serpent the mouthpiece of the Satan was to first come as a seeker of light."yea hath God said?" Not all who ask questions want light they simply want to sow another seed.
    She belived the lie of the serpentine shall NOT surely die" how simply was the truth changed into a lie by a simple addition of "not"
    if you reject the truth you will believe a lie,once you believe the lie,you become blind to the truth.
    So it was then so it is now.
    For it is written that she "SAW that the tree was good to eat....." and she reasoned thus "it would make her wise"
    not only was she blind to the truth but her reasoning was darkened also.
    The 12 spies all saw the same things.You can not deny reality.
    But the 10 saw them as if the last 40 DAYS had never happened.they saw them in the false light of their own reasoning and perceptions and simply preached their own thinking their own fears and perceptions, sadly they found a ready audience of the same mind and heart.who saw and reasoned as they did.
    The two faithful witnesses saw the same things but in the true light of what God had done in the past.wgho it was who was with them and what he had promised in and for the future.and in that light saw the 'giants in their true perspective.
    In Christ
    Grant Melville likes this.
  5. Are you saying that the forty years were figurative, not literal?
  6. Not at all.
    Though the number 40 and it's multiplications clearly has some significance due to its often repeated throughout scripture.
    What I'm saying is that we/the church has excused (?) Our unbelief(?) and taken the 40 years wandering in the wilderness for 40 years as the NORM of the christian life.
    And despite they had 40 years of miracles and sustaining by God.they were still out of the centre of God's will for that time.
    I do not believe that the church knows God.
    It might as "little children" who know the father and their sins are forgiven"
    But little of "ye young men,the Word of God dwells in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one"
    And hardly at all oh "ye fathers ye know Him who is from the beginning "
    That is the Creator.
    How can it?When this same God 's account of the beginning is not believed? But rather the world's idea and view of the beginning ,is?
    Paul warns the church of today "not to be like them who entered not in because of unbelief "
    God told them to "go in and take the land for I have given it to you."

    The promised land is not heaven.

    For there are no giants or cities to conquer there.
    Jess said "I will build my church and the gates of he'll shall not prevail against it"
    It has been projected and even taught that somehow it is the church that is one the back foot and the devil is attacking the doors or gates of the church?
    Gates attack nothing.
    They are the weakest part of a walled city.and the most heavily defended in consequence.
    I do not know all that it means. But what it does not mean is that the church is one the back foot. But somehow the devil is and it's the gates of he'll that are having the problem.
    ×When God said go in and poses the land. He clearly expected them to be ready and willing to do so. Which was confirmed by the two who were.
    For they had been through the same as all the rest. And had seen and heard all that was done and 'preached' as all had.
    but only two were changed and their lives transformed by God or had allowed God to do all that he wished to do in their lives.
    The vast majority though as it were born again, in that they had been delivered from bondage of Egypt and of Pharaoh, which are types for the world and Satan.
    They had not allowed God to work IN them to the effect that they no longer walked by sight as the 10 spies demonstrated but by faith as the two faithful demonstrated.
    Those who walked by sight were in effect blind.and wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.the two faithful witnesses went with them but in the end entered into the promise as strong and healthy as they were 40 years before,for God is faithful.

    In christ
    Grant Melville likes this.
  7. Thank you! That's very helpful.
  8. Exactly:

    Galatians 6:7 (KJV)
    Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. ​
  9. @geralduk, I think you'd very much enjoy C.A. Coate's Outlines of the Pentateuch and the historical books, if you haven't already read them. The truth that you're helpfully setting out for us here is expounded in Mr Coates's ministry in a very attractive way.
  10. Hello my brother. It is wonderful to see the work that you have done. I would like to respond to your 1st comment of..............
    "It is the idea that to be BORN again is the be all and end all of our Salvation."

    John 3:2-5
    This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

    It seems to that being born again is THE prerequisite for salvation today and then once we are born again/saved we as Christians should try to stay out of know sin which of course you are equating with Egypt. Correct?????
  11. ?
  13. Sorry I meant to reply the part you said... below :)

  14. "Ye must be born again" that is no given option. It is an imperative.
    A man cannot be 'saved' at all unless he is born of God and his nature changed from one of a" child of disobedience "(eph) to one of obedience.
    I am simp, y saying that to be BORN again is ,if you will but the 'S' of our Salvation.not it all.
    I do not believe our primary purpose is to stay out of known sin.
    But to" seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness"
    For our focus should not be one sin as such, for are we not to" count ourselves dead to sin"? And alive unto God"?
    More alive then to God than to sin.
    That's not to say we should not recognise old temptations when or if they arise and spurn them.

    In christ
  15. No problem. My tablet presumes too much as to what I want to say. So we should not be quick to be offended, I simply did not understand the connection so...."?"
    In Christ
    Abdicate likes this.
  16. Then we agree! Wonderful!!!
    Gerald, IMO and I believe the Bible confirms this......the old nature of sin is never completely done away with even when we come to Christ.

    Matt. 6:33..........
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

    In Matthew, who was the writer to the Jews, the "kingdom of God" means God's active rule over his creation, especially in saving his people from their sins and the consequences of those sins.

    So then, "kingdom of heaven" does not refer to heaven as a place, but to God's reign as King, reflecting the Jewish avoidance of direct reference to God. The kingdom of God is not only God's rule over his obedient subjects, but includes his victory over their spiritual enemies through Jesus, beginning in the present age as seen in Matt 12:28; and Luke 1:68-75; 11:20.
  18. You are bringing in a lot of other things not related to the matter if being BORN AGAIN and then say we are all in agreement. I cannot say we are in those matters you further raised.
    For one thing understanding needs to be obtained as to the old nature. The old man has been crucified with Christ.
    The BODY is still subject to sin and death. But what is written?
    "The body is dead because of sin "
    But if the same Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you,he shall also quicken your mortal bodies. ..."
    and in another place,"yield not your members unto unrighteousness but unto righteousness " all temptations are designed to get you to obey your old man as it were.or to yield to unrighteousness. But what sayeth the scriptures? If we walk in the Spirit we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh "
    And what do you do with "we have become partakers of the divine nature"
    So while in PART the old nature is still present. It is not the whole truth at all.the devil can't stop a person being BORN again.but he will do all that he can to blind the eyes of God's people to not see what is the exceeding greatness of his power that is towards us who believe........... (eph)
    As for the kingdom of God that's for another subject and another post.
    This OP was how the Gospel has been reduced to its most basic and to see or understand in some measure how Great it indeed is.

    In Christ
  19. Forums have a way of going different ways don't they? Personally, I don't buy into the eradication of the old nature of sin thing... I don't believe it squares up with the teaching of the Bible or the experience of born again believers. It is easy to say and makes us as Christians sound really good, but I have to wonder what your wife would say if I was to ask her about the sin you say can not be done after we are born again.

    MY wife would fall in the floor laughing if you asked her about me I can promise you that.

    Again, it would be proper and gracious on your part to tell us what the Scriptures are that you post.

    We for sure are called to be partakers of the divine nature, in other words, to become Christ-like. Yet, I believe the old nature stays with us until God calls us home to heaven or until Jesus returns, whichever comes first; therefore, we must know how to win the battle against sin and this lingering propensity to sin.

    Romans 7:15-19 confirms that belief as Paul says.....
    " For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

    If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

    Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

    Donald Grey Barnhouse, Romans, Eerdmans, 1983 tells us that ........

    Romans 7:15-24........... "The law has entered and done its work in the believer. He still possesses the Adamic nature even though he has been declared justified and joined to Christ in His resurrection . . . . When we are born again new desires are implanted along with the divine nature. However intense these new desires may be, within ourselves is still a principle that is contrary to the will of God; this principle of evil, which opposes every claim of God, hinders and impairs every effort to please Him . . . . Even though the believer can live in triumph over eruptions of sin, the old carnal nature is still within, contaminating everything . . . . my illustration in no way supports the false doctrine of the eradication of the old nature . . . . The believer in Christ is given power to overcome the outbreaks of Adamic nature, but its presence constantly contaminates his life on earth [Vol. III, pp. 237ff.].

    Lewis Sperry Chafer, He That Is Spiritual, Zondervan, 1967

    "There is abundant Biblical testimony to the fact that the "flesh", the "old man", or "sin" are the sources of evil, and are the possession of the child of God so long as he remains in this earthly body. He has a blessed "treasure" in the possession of the "new man" indwelling him; but he has this treasure "in an earthen vessel." The earthen vessel is the "body of our humiliation".

    2 Cor. 4:7........
    "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us."

    Philippians 3:21 . . .
    "who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself."

    "Though born of God and possessing a new divine nature, the weakness of the flesh and the dispositions of the sin-nature abide until the final change from earth to heaven."
  20. To which are we born?of heaven or of earth?
    A new born child deficates and is tolerated that he has as yet no self control.
    What is tolerated in a new born is not in a child.
    What is tolerated in a child is not in a teenager.and what maybe tolerated in a teenager is not in an adult.
    The new life we have is expected to grow from little children to "ye fathers" 1 John.
    "Folly in a wise man is as a fly in the ointment"
    There is much folly in children.
    The famous excuse for sin is often quoted I Romans. But never much the last bit. "Thanks be unto God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ "
    True it is the devil often points us to our failures and sin and true it is we are not what we would like to be.But I can say in reply I am not what I was and by the grace of God "he will perfect that which he has started"
    I fear that while all that you have said sounds reasonable enough. It is not enough.
    For we make too many excuses for our sin when God has given us the means the way and the word to overcome all.
    "If we walk in the Spirit we shall not fulfill the lustre of the flesh" Romans.
    I implies that while yes the body is still subject to sin and death.
    We are to live in the Spirit where the flesh is kept under or in subjection to the Spirit.
    We are not called to be partakers I think you will find we are partakers of the divine nature. How can it be otherwise if we are indeed truly children of God begotten again of the father?
    In Christ

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