Rules: This is a thread in support of the raptures of the scriptures. If you don't believe in it, move on, or start your own thread. I want only to discuss scripturally the event and what/when/how/why. So with that, here's my two cents: αρπαγη Harpazo - Definition: 1. to seize, carry off by force 2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly 3. to snatch out or away a derivative from αἱρέομαι (haireomai) - Definition: 1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose 2. to choose by vote, elect to office Harpazo but in English we call it rapture from the obsolete French for abduction, carrying off, from rapt, carried away, from Old French rat, from Latin raptus. Some scriptures where this word appears made bold: Matthew 11:12 (KJV) And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 13:19 (KJV) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. John 6:15 (KJV) When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. John 10:12 (KJV) But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. John 10:28 (KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. John 10:29 (KJV) My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. Acts 23:10 (KJV) And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring [him] into the castle. 2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Jude 1:23 (KJV) And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Commentary dates showing it was thought of long before the 1800's: John Guyse (1680-1761) http://www.puritanboard.com/f78/practical-expositor-exposition-new-testament-john-guyse-40597 Matthew Henry's Commentary (1662-1714) Shakespeare: Pericles, Prince of Tyre, Act II, Scene 1 Jewish Rapture (Yep... they have one - more like the resurrection) Isaiah 27:13 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem. Today the Jews pay huge amounts of money to be buried in the Mt. of Olives so they will be with the Messiah comes. My thoughts: If you are a child of the King we: Won't be condemned: John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Condemnation: 1 : to declare to be wrong 2 : to convict of guilt 3 : to sentence judicially 4 : to pronounce unfit for use <~ a building> 5 : to declare forfeited or taken for public use syn denounce, censure, blame, criticize, reprehend OT Rapture: Isa 26:19-21 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." The above verse cannot be the resurrection because the resurrection occurs at the white throne for judgment, Revelations Chapter 5. Resurrection: n 1 cap: the rising of Christ from the dead 2 often cap: the rising to life of all human dead before the final judgment 3 : REVIVAL Now lets dissect the above verses. Going by the order of the verses as chronological, v.19 shows that "dead shall live (NT Rapture: 1Th 4:16), together with my dead body shall they arise" (Like Jesus: 1Co 15:4). Then "the earth shall cast out the dead" (NT Rapture: 1Th 4:17). Verse 20 shows them that they are to not be present "until the indignation be overpast" (we'll meet the Lord in the air - 1Th 4:17). Then the Lord shall punish the earth (Isa 24 and a host of other verses and Revelations). Wrath: What is it? To sum it up, here's the perfect verse: Isa 13:9-13 "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger." Also see Zeph chapter 1. With these said, it's clear that the Word is saying that wrath is for judgment. John 5:24 says we're not to be condemned. Joh 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Wrath is for His enemies: Nahum 1:2 "God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies." Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" Romans 5:8-9 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." 1Thess 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." 1Thess 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." Holy Spirit: Moreover, when we are saved, the Holy Spirit seals us, for He is the earnest (down payment) of our salvation. (Eph 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.") Now since we are sealed at salvation, if the church is here, then why are the 144,000 male virgin Jews (Rev 14:4) "waiting" to BE sealed (Rev 7:3)? It because they are not of the bride, but the first fruits (Rev 14:4) of the salvation of Israel as a nation (Zech 13:6, Rom 11:26). Along with this, John the Baptist said he wasn't of the Bride, but a friend of the Bride (John 3:29). Furthermore, not all the Old Testament saints are part of the Bride per John. s statement. The Bride started with the Disciples of Christ (Mt 9:15). I say this because 70 weeks of 7 years were determined for the people of Israel (Dan 9:24) starting with the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem (Dan 9:25). The 69th week the Messiah would be "cut off" (v.26) and the "prince" makes a covenant with Israel for one week, or seven years (v.27). This prince is the antichrist (Eze 28:2-10, Dan 8:11). In the midst of this week the antichrist will stop the sacrifices (Dan 9:27, 11:31, 12:11, Matt 24:15, Mar13:14) in the 3rd temple (Rev 11:2). (Note: at no time has the temple ever existed without the outer court, hence the implication of a 3rd). (Please remember that John didn. t write Revelations until 96 AD after the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD). With all these tangents said, the 70th week is for the Jews, not the Bride as pointed out in the many verses mentioned before. After the wrath shall the Lord come and reign the world for a 1000 years, and the devil is put in prison until the end of the 1000 years, the antichrist and the false prophet are judged and thrown into the lake of fire. At the end, the devil will be loosed to tempt those that lived through the tribulation period or who were born during the 1000 period (Isa 65, Rev 20). Then the white throne judgment, and the first to be judged is the first to fall, the devil, that old serpent (Rev 20:10) then we will be there to be witnesses to the masses (Rev 20:4). Please note that Rev 20:12 says the dead stand, even when we "die" we live and are called "asleep" (Acts 13:36, 1Cor 11:30, 15:51, 1Thess 4:14). Finally: With all this said, can anyone tell me when the Judgment Seat of Christ (only for Christians Ro 14:10, 2Co 5:10) takes place? We are all called to judgment (Heb 9:27) The only time allotted is during that one week (7 year). Then the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place during the great tribulation (Rev 19:7). THEN after this judgment and marriage and the festival (supper) the Lord will mount up His armies and begin His reign on the Earth for 1000 years. Since ALL of these events fit so nicely, and scripturally together, I do not understand the attack on the Rapture before the tribulation. If we are to "wrath" then what comfort is there in the words of 1The 4:13-18. Don't pick and choose verses and don't use theories, just use the Word. 2Ti 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Co 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." See scripture with the Spirit and not with flesh. In other words, see the principle behind the words, just as 2 Corinthians 3:6 says. Who will be Raptured This isn’t a study of when it’ll happen or to defend if it’ll happen. This entire study came about because I asked the Lord a simple question, "Lord, who is right about the Rapture, the pre-tribulationists, or the post-tribulationists?" The answer was a shock – both are right! The very night I prayed this little prayer, the Lord began to show me some very wonderful things. He opened scripture to me and finally everything fit together. Very true, all throughout scripture, God called out His own people before a judgment occurred. However, if His people were not obedient, judgment fell on them too. The church today, those that teach the rapture, teach only that the church will be raptured before the beginning of the Great Tribulation Period, of seven years. The seventieth week of Daniel’s seventy weeks. God has always had a choice for anyone. God’s way, which is life, or their own way, which was death. In Deuteronomy 27 all the curse and then in 28 all the blessings God said this: Deuteronomy 30:19-20 "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." Luke 17:33 "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." If you do it your way, you’ll die. If you do it God’s way, that is through faith and surrender, you’ll win, by loosing your life. Because you surrender your life, loose it, you’ll gain it, because hehehe God is faithful to keep that which is committed to Him. II Timothy 1:12!!! So what’s this have to do with the Rapture. Well if you suffer in this world, meaning not giving into the lusts of the flesh, then you’ll reign with Christ in the 1000 year reign on Christ, Revelation 20:2-7. Also these: II Timothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" Revelation 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." I’ve been plagued for years not understanding the chronology of the end times. Just when I thought I understood that the rapture would happen before the great tribulation, I found a verse where Jesus was talking about the end times and then at the end mentioned that the angels would gather the elect from the four winds. Well that just didn’t fit because in one part we’re called up with a trumpet and then Jesus says that the angels gather His faithful. Matthew 24:30-31 was the section of trouble for me. Matthew 24:30-31 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." This is just before the setup of the reign of Christ on earth…when is the judgement seat of the Lamb and the marriage supper of the lamb? Then I realized that there must be two raptures. One at the beginning for the faithful in Christ, those that lost their lives NOW in obedience, and then one for those that made it through the tribulation and didn’t take the mark of the beast, Revelation 14 (this chapter even says that if you take the mark of the beast, you’re name would be blotted out of the Lamb’s book of life.) Then the Lord showed me Matthew 25. Throughout the Bible, oil has represented the Holy Spirit. Let’s look at these verses: Matthew 25:1-13 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." This also points to this verse: Matthew 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." The rest of Matthew 25 gives another parable that shows talents being given out. First off, a lost soul cannot loose anything they have nothing. However, a Christian has a lot to loose, namely their rewards, authority to reign with Christ and judge the world and the angels, I Corinthians 6:2-3. Matthew 25 shows me, as well as all the other verse that if you’re not obedient in this life, you’ll be saved and go to heaven, but that’s all you’re going to get. Here’s my proof: I Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Saved by the skin of their teeth, but no more. Therefore, I believe the first rapture at the beginning of the tribulation period is for the faithful only. Not all the saved are faithful and do the things of God. Not all Christians are obedient and holy and perfect. The rapture is a gift, not a right. And as for the second rapture, I believe this is for the tribulation saints spoken of in Revelation 6. Finally, everything fits. For if one verse, even a few words, contradicts your belief or dogma, then your belief and dogma is wrong. God doesn’t wish anyone to suffer loss, but if you don’t loose your life now, then you’ll loose it later. The choice is yours. Abbr. Timeline Pre-Trib version: Rapture of the faithful Bride (Meet Jesus in the air) Marriage Supper of the Lamb Judgement Seat of Christ - to Judge the Bride Wrath to be poured out on the entire world Two Witnesses show up to preach for 1260 days The A/C shows up 3.5 years into a 7-year treaty the A/C kills the Two Witnesses Israel is to flee to the wilderness for 1260 days The Two Witnesses are raised from the dead and raptured Jesus Returns to the earth to rule for 1000 years (AKA Second Coming) A/C and false prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire Satan is bound for 1000 years Satan is loosed Gog and Magog attack Jesus and the faithful The Father send fire down to consume them White Throne Judgement - Judgement of the dead Eternity That's my two cents.