Yep........I may have gained some wisdom but I have forgotten what it was I gained!!
The Prodigal
- Thread starter Silk
- Start date
Yep........I may have gained some wisdom but I have forgotten what it was I gained!!
Ahhhh. but there is where GRACE takes over my friend. That is why Jesus died to pay our penality for sin because NONE of us can be totally obedient to Jesus.
Psalms 116:11....
I said in my alarm,
“All men are liars.”
Rom. 3:23 say ..."ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God" and that applies to after we have been saved as well, because no matter how hard we try, we can not keep the laws of God.
We who are SAVED are now "forgiven sinners" but sinners none the less.
if they choose to believe these things then God bless them all.
Example:
1. Infant baptism for salvation.
2. Celebracy of priests.
3. Accepting Mary as the co-redeamer.
4. Mary being sinless.
5. Confession.
6. Rosery beads/objects of worship.
7. Pergatory.
No offense meant, Major, but these 7 things you talk about don't truly bother me so very much. (Gonna guess you are a Baptist) While it is true that being baptized as an infant (obviously) doen't require knowledge of God it is a measure, erroneous or no, to claim blameless infants to God's protection while they learn. Ok, realistically, I'm never gonna buy celibacy for priests or nuns. In other words, it's a man made mandate not divine. If men and women of God breed good children (or rather raise) then the world would be in a much better place than it is today. Children are not the original sin nor was the means to begat them. The original sin wasn't about "fooling around" but the fact that what was done wrong was not aknowledged. Otherwise strike out all those "Go, be fruitful and multiply" should be stricken. Adam said, "Eve talked me into it.'' Eve said, "the serpent talked me into it." The serpent said, "Hey, I was just saying..." The sin was the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Folks like to leave that last part "of Good and Evil" off but it was evil that now tainted their knowledge. Perhaps that made sexual intimacies dirty. We were ousted from the Garden, not because of Adam & Eve's wrongdoing, but because there also was the Tree of Life. It took Adam 930 years to get that Tree out of his system. Not too much is ever said about it, but God cursed the ground for growing things in Adam's name and this was only resolved with Noah's birth. I wonder why no one ever talks about this. Instead it's all about the pain of childbirth. Maybe God was tryng to show us what it is really like to create life.
I didn't know that Catholics thought of Mary as a co-redeemer. I agree with Major here, she is not. Don't mis understand me, her part in Christ's Glory is moving and vibrant. As a Mother, she watched the child she grew in her womb and raised, dying on a cross. In what hour of her trial do you think she wished she could change places with her son? As for immaculate? My former sister-in-law gave birth to a daughter with her hymen intact. (Wonders here if she ever told her). This was in 1970's. It was my brother's seed which defied the odds but all the same... it can happen. It is said that Mary bypassed original sin by giving birth in this fashion.Sounds ok to me, seriously, I believe she gave birth to a miracle. So often these days, when a kid goes wrong, the first people they blame is the parents. I've got no problem with nodding to Mary in a job well done.
Confession, they say is good for the soul. Protestants say with pride, " I don't need no middle man" between me and God. I was raised Methodist and I know this to be true. However, I also know that telling your sins to another human being and hearing, "God will forgive you." has it's place too. As has been noted, on another thread, God already knows your sins, and through Christ has already forgiven them. It becomes up to us to ask (define) for forgiveness of our sins. You don't start out mitigating (the devil made me do it.) but it is up to us to accept repsonsibility (and consequences) for our sins. Again I have no problem with this Catholic ritual.
The cros
The rosary is a symbol of prayer. I have honestly never heard anyone claim they were divine. (Not een the ones that turn gold). Being OCD, I bought a rosary because I like to keep count of my prayers. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't saying the rosary the same as Hail Mary and Our Father? I get asking family members for help when you don't know the person personally. So I skip the Hail Marys. I also get God's commandment, don't make any graven images. I mean who would know better than God that we humans tend to be literal and stupidly worship things rather than true spirit? The cross I wear around my neck reminds me that God is my protection against evil. If a vampire showed up I would certainly try using the cross physically but I woukd know somewhere that it is my faith being tested. (By the way, can anyone tell me when and why they started leaving off "for yours is the power and glory, forever." in the Lord's prayer?).
Lastly, I have no feelings about purgatory. I gather it is a place where you might hope for a second chance. I am all for that!. I will always remember George Carlin's joke about "the guy doing time in pergatory for eating baloney on Friday." Man has constantly changed perspective on God and "God's Law" in centuries past but I suspect God's Law is simpler than we might expect. Love one another, don't lie, don't be greedy etc.
Example:
1. Infant baptism for salvation.
2. Celebracy of priests.
3. Accepting Mary as the co-redeamer.
4. Mary being sinless.
5. Confession.
6. Rosery beads/objects of worship.
7. Pergatory.
No offense meant, Major, but these 7 things you talk about don't truly bother me so very much. (Gonna guess you are a Baptist) While it is true that being baptized as an infant (obviously) doen't require knowledge of God it is a measure, erroneous or no, to claim blameless infants to God's protection while they learn. Ok, realistically, I'm never gonna buy celibacy for priests or nuns. In other words, it's a man made mandate not divine. If men and women of God breed good children (or rather raise) then the world would be in a much better place than it is today. Children are not the original sin nor was the means to begat them. The original sin wasn't about "fooling around" but the fact that what was done wrong was not aknowledged. Otherwise strike out all those "Go, be fruitful and multiply" should be stricken. Adam said, "Eve talked me into it.'' Eve said, "the serpent talked me into it." The serpent said, "Hey, I was just saying..." The sin was the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Folks like to leave that last part "of Good and Evil" off but it was evil that now tainted their knowledge. Perhaps that made sexual intimacies dirty. We were ousted from the Garden, not because of Adam & Eve's wrongdoing, but because there also was the Tree of Life. It took Adam 930 years to get that Tree out of his system. Not too much is ever said about it, but God cursed the ground for growing things in Adam's name and this was only resolved with Noah's birth. I wonder why no one ever talks about this. Instead it's all about the pain of childbirth. Maybe God was tryng to show us what it is really like to create life.
I didn't know that Catholics thought of Mary as a co-redeemer. I agree with Major here, she is not. Don't mis understand me, her part in Christ's Glory is moving and vibrant. As a Mother, she watched the child she grew in her womb and raised, dying on a cross. In what hour of her trial do you think she wished she could change places with her son? As for immaculate? My former sister-in-law gave birth to a daughter with her hymen intact. (Wonders here if she ever told her). This was in 1970's. It was my brother's seed which defied the odds but all the same... it can happen. It is said that Mary bypassed original sin by giving birth in this fashion.Sounds ok to me, seriously, I believe she gave birth to a miracle. So often these days, when a kid goes wrong, the first people they blame is the parents. I've got no problem with nodding to Mary in a job well done.
Confession, they say is good for the soul. Protestants say with pride, " I don't need no middle man" between me and God. I was raised Methodist and I know this to be true. However, I also know that telling your sins to another human being and hearing, "God will forgive you." has it's place too. As has been noted, on another thread, God already knows your sins, and through Christ has already forgiven them. It becomes up to us to ask (define) for forgiveness of our sins. You don't start out mitigating (the devil made me do it.) but it is up to us to accept repsonsibility (and consequences) for our sins. Again I have no problem with this Catholic ritual.
The cros
The rosary is a symbol of prayer. I have honestly never heard anyone claim they were divine. (Not een the ones that turn gold). Being OCD, I bought a rosary because I like to keep count of my prayers. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't saying the rosary the same as Hail Mary and Our Father? I get asking family members for help when you don't know the person personally. So I skip the Hail Marys. I also get God's commandment, don't make any graven images. I mean who would know better than God that we humans tend to be literal and stupidly worship things rather than true spirit? The cross I wear around my neck reminds me that God is my protection against evil. If a vampire showed up I would certainly try using the cross physically but I woukd know somewhere that it is my faith being tested. (By the way, can anyone tell me when and why they started leaving off "for yours is the power and glory, forever." in the Lord's prayer?).
Lastly, I have no feelings about purgatory. I gather it is a place where you might hope for a second chance. I am all for that!. I will always remember George Carlin's joke about "the guy doing time in pergatory for eating baloney on Friday." Man has constantly changed perspective on God and "God's Law" in centuries past but I suspect God's Law is simpler than we might expect. Love one another, don't lie, don't be greedy etc.
There is no second chance... with death comes judgement..Hebrew 9:27. Read about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. that will tell you right there that there is no second chances.
AY-yiyi (grin) .Silk <-------------- Just discovered the reply key (duh). I know what you mean about the forgetting thing. Now, where's my keys?
Yes I am a Baptist. A southern Baptist at that. Educated in a Presbyterian seminary and undergraduate studies at an Indepentant university. I was saved by the grace of God and a Baptist by choice for one and only one reason. IMHO they try harder to to teach the literal Scriptures and their missionary outreach throug the cooperative giving is outstanding in getting out the gospel.
Anyway, to reply to your comments.........PLEASE understand that I do not in anyay condeamm the Catholic (RCC).
What I do is simply state that some of the doctrines of the RCC are not Biblical and we as Protestants are not required to follow them. IF anyone chooses to follow them, then God bless them as they do because I have many wonderful RCC friends and I love them dearly so do not think I am "bashing" them in any way.
Your comment was........
"While it is true that being baptized as an infant (obviously) doen't require knowledge of God it is a measure, erroneous or no, to claim blameless infants to God's protection while they learn."
Children are under the blood of the Lord Jesus and are protected by the Holy Spirit because they have not reached the age of accountability.
We can only be saved by CHOOSING the sacrificial gift of God in the work of Christ on the cross,
Acts 16:27-31...........
And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 10:9............
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Now, we can come up with all kinds of reason to accept infant baptism, BUT none of them are Biblical.
Your comment was.......................
I'm never gonna buy celibacy for priests or nuns.
Excellant for you my friend. Again, what do the Scriptures sy about priests and bishops and pastors?
1 Timothy 3:1-4
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity."
Instead of being celbate, a priest/bishop MUST BE MARRIED.
Your comment was...............................
The sin was the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Actually, the sin of Adam and Eve was DISOBEDIENCE. The eating of the fruit was a test to see if they would obey the Word of God and they failed completly.
Your comment was.................................
From :Goodnews for Catholics.org............
She it was who, immune from all sin, personal or inherited, and ever more closely united with her Son, offered him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father together with the holocaust of her maternal rights and motherly love. . . . - - Mystici Corporis
Not only did Mary offer her Son to God, but she remained at the cross to suffer with Christ [964]:
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, associated herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim which was born of her. - - Second Vatican Council.
According to the Church, Mary's sufferings were so intense that they brought her to the very threshold of death. She, says the Church, "participated with Jesus Christ in the very painful act of redemption"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind. - - Inter Sodalicia.
Your comment was..................
The rosary is a symbol of prayer. I have honestly never heard anyone claim they were divine.
(From Wekipedia.com)
The rosary (from Latin rosarium, meaning "rose garden") or "garland of roses" is a Roman Catholic Marian devotion. It has been promoted by a number of popes as part of the veneration of Mary. The rosary also represents the Roman Catholic emphasis on "participation in the life of Mary, whose focus was Christ", and the Mariological theme: "to Christ through Mary", taught by St. Louis de Montfort.
Exodus 20:4..........
"You shall not make for yourself an imagein the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."
Your comment then was...............
Lastly, I have no feelings about purgatory. I gather it is a place where you might hope for a second chance.
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.
There is no second chance my dear friend. Death ends ALL choices.
I hope theis helps you and remember, it is not bashing anyone, simply pointing out the doctrinal differances of RCC and Protestants.
Hey Major (smiles). Sorry about taking so much time to respond but frankly I was worried that your patience would evaporate for me, with my reply. I hope you understand that while we may disagree about precepts, I speak earnestly and from my heart. You say that there are no second chances after death and I know this is not true. Matthew 16:28, Jesus tells us that there are people standing (2000 yrs. Ago) who will not taste death, until they see him coming in his kingdom. Revelation tells us that until you accept the mark of the beast, you still have a chance and and can return to God. I think with the new covenant made when Christ died for our sins, that mankind as a whole was given a reprieve. I don’t know for a fact, but I lean to reincarnation because I was given a dream that eerily showed that I had been reincarnated. But I wouldn’t bank my soul on that (or second chances for that matter – I would like to get it right the first time, make no mistake!). There is case upon case (not speaking of Bridey Murphy, either) where there seems no other explanation of the facts. So be it, I don’t know it for sure. Part of my long time in responding is due to the fact that I am reading the Bible with new eyes. I was up to Psalms and felt I needed to stop and start the New Testament to aid me in my reply. And it is slow going (delightful but)ssslllloooowwww. It is interesting to note that Mark, Luke, Paul, were not apostles of Christ while he was alive and did not in fact learn at his holy knees. Biblical scholars tell us that none of the 4 gospels was written by the original people that it is attributed to. But the 2 apostles that knew him say there are second chances. Revelation tells us in the end days, the dead will rise. I have read every near death story I could get my hands on because as a child I witnessed to a girl with Leukemia, who came back from 30 minutes of death to tell her mother she should not mourn where she was going. Not all near death experiences show people going up. Some are going down but they are given second chances. The souls freed from their temporal body are going somewhere. There are about a million (slight exaggeration) Ghost Hunter type programs on a wide range of channels. They have proved, in my estimation that there is life beyond death. Most of these ghosts are afraid to go into the light (cross over) because of something they did in life. God does allow those who have crossed over to visit loved ones and these should not be confused with the ones who fear. My point here is that, all of this allows second chances. Gosh, this has gone on longer than I meant so I will close this and reply to the rest of your response in later replies. Just note, I understood all along that you were explaining doctrinal differences. I was saying we have a lot more in common with other Chrisitian sects when you parse it out then one might expect. I also know you aren't the kind to bash :^)
While debating with myself about how to reply to your post, I fell asleep and had a dream I feel compelled (reluctantly) to share with you. I dreamt I was in the “end of days” (as I call it)(and it’s not the first time I dreamt such either). It was not given to me to know what had happened but my city had been crushed. The few survivors were refugeeing south. I wanted to head in that direction but God came into my ear and told me I had to go north. He said, there was a pocket of his people up north who didn’t realize their danger as they hadn’t been hit as hard as other places. I had to go up and get them and then he would tell me where to go. Balking, I got out one word and before I could articulate a full sentence, I had an answer. I will put what I didn’t get a chance to say in parenthesis so the conversation makes sense. Can’t (you talk to someone up North already?) You are hearing me and I send you. Kicking a can, as I walked north, I said, ”You’re (talking in my voice in my head, couldn’t you give me a burning bush or something?”). You already know why.(which I did – I think he said something like look what happened the first time…so yeah yeah I did…grumble). So (what if they don’t believe me?) Tell them what you know, it’s all I ask. Should I (tell them about you being in my ear?) I’ll leave that to you. As I walked, people were passing by, yelling, “You’re going the wrong way.” “I know”, I answered. Towards sunset, I ran into a couple who had a camp set up by the side of the road. As I approached, they looked at each other then said, “where ya going?” “North,” I answered. “That’s the wrong…” “I know,” I interrupted. “Have some supper and maybe we can talk some sense into you. This parts fuzzy but, exasperated, I finally told them that God had sent me on a mission. They decided they would drive me. I don’t know how much time went by but we kept picking up others (but I didn’t tell them – it occurs to me awake that the couple might have told them.) Finally we reached this city. I noticed that they had electricity and a committee of townspeople greeted us to ascertain what our intentions were. I asked what day it was since I had lost track. They said it was July 2nd, which made me very anxious. I couldn’t believe that I only had a day to convince these people. There is more to the dream but again I have gone overlong. They agreed to come as a community but I woke up wondering if they would organize themselves and get going fast enough. I pray it is just a dream.
Hi Guys, I have not been a part of this discussion so I will only address some issues that you raised in your second last post Silk.
Near death experiences? yes well I guess I had one of them once, some 20 odd years ago.
Dreams? well yes we all mostly have those too.
Firstly I'll tell you about a dream I had when I was about four or five. There is nothing Earth shattering about it, nothing apocalyptic about it, but it was very interesting nevertheless.
In the dream I had, I was sitting on the back of an Eagle and we were flying around over the house I lived in.
A few things to note here was firstly, the dream was vivid enough that even now, 60 odd years later I can still recall it. The Eagle was a dark reddish brown.....I guess that shows we do dream in colour. The look of our house and the surrounding areas were exactly as they would have looked had the dream been an actual experience.( I can say this because of later Sail plane experience showing what low altitude flight over the landscape looks like.) How the human brain can pull such detail out of 'thin air' is beyond my ability to know, but it can....mine did.
Was this dream connected with the scripture about being carried on the wings of Eagles? Exo 19:4. ? I believe it was not.
It is just illustrative of the 'as yet unknown' mysteries of the human brain; nothing more.
Now about my 'alleged' near death experience....
I had a major heart attack on the Saturday Night. Come some time the following Tuesday night, I awoke to find the medical team studying a portable console of whatnots that I was wired up to, and I recall the doctor commenting that something or other should have stabilized by that time.
But just prior(?) to this, I (dreamed?) that I was in a rectangular box with a lid on it. As it was 100% dark in there I have no idea how I figured that the box was rectangular, but to continue.......there were two entities who came and lifted the lid of this box up and blinding light flooded in, and these two beings were very bright too. Though I never saw the third person, I understood that he was sitting on something, which was sort of behind and to the left of where I was lying (sort of over my left shoulder). He said to the two who lifted the lid "Not now, (this next is somewhat vague, but he continued to say something about more time)" They then replaced the lid. It was after this that I awoke to find that I was the star attraction in the ICU unit. Was this a preview as it were of Rev 6:9. ? I believe not. No white robe...sob.
Was this a genuine near death experience or just a dream generated by a body under extreme stress? Who can say with absolute objectivity?...I can't.
We need to be extremely careful about how we interpret dreams and visions, Scripture as well. Jesus told us that we do not know the time of the end, and we need to be very careful about thinking of an exact time when this will happen. We are living in the End times, but the end times began with the resurrection of Jesus around two thousand years ago. We need to be ready now.
We don't need a memo or a notation on our calendars, We just need to busy ourselves to be ready if He comes now.
Now about some not tasting death till Jesus comes in His Glory: Consider the chronology here :
As Major pointed out....Heb 9:27. Not only is there no second chance, there is no perceptible waiting period...no purgatory.
Blessings,
calvin
Near death experiences? yes well I guess I had one of them once, some 20 odd years ago.
Dreams? well yes we all mostly have those too.
Firstly I'll tell you about a dream I had when I was about four or five. There is nothing Earth shattering about it, nothing apocalyptic about it, but it was very interesting nevertheless.
In the dream I had, I was sitting on the back of an Eagle and we were flying around over the house I lived in.
A few things to note here was firstly, the dream was vivid enough that even now, 60 odd years later I can still recall it. The Eagle was a dark reddish brown.....I guess that shows we do dream in colour. The look of our house and the surrounding areas were exactly as they would have looked had the dream been an actual experience.( I can say this because of later Sail plane experience showing what low altitude flight over the landscape looks like.) How the human brain can pull such detail out of 'thin air' is beyond my ability to know, but it can....mine did.
Was this dream connected with the scripture about being carried on the wings of Eagles? Exo 19:4. ? I believe it was not.
It is just illustrative of the 'as yet unknown' mysteries of the human brain; nothing more.
Now about my 'alleged' near death experience....
I had a major heart attack on the Saturday Night. Come some time the following Tuesday night, I awoke to find the medical team studying a portable console of whatnots that I was wired up to, and I recall the doctor commenting that something or other should have stabilized by that time.
But just prior(?) to this, I (dreamed?) that I was in a rectangular box with a lid on it. As it was 100% dark in there I have no idea how I figured that the box was rectangular, but to continue.......there were two entities who came and lifted the lid of this box up and blinding light flooded in, and these two beings were very bright too. Though I never saw the third person, I understood that he was sitting on something, which was sort of behind and to the left of where I was lying (sort of over my left shoulder). He said to the two who lifted the lid "Not now, (this next is somewhat vague, but he continued to say something about more time)" They then replaced the lid. It was after this that I awoke to find that I was the star attraction in the ICU unit. Was this a preview as it were of Rev 6:9. ? I believe not. No white robe...sob.
Was this a genuine near death experience or just a dream generated by a body under extreme stress? Who can say with absolute objectivity?...I can't.
We need to be extremely careful about how we interpret dreams and visions, Scripture as well. Jesus told us that we do not know the time of the end, and we need to be very careful about thinking of an exact time when this will happen. We are living in the End times, but the end times began with the resurrection of Jesus around two thousand years ago. We need to be ready now.
We don't need a memo or a notation on our calendars, We just need to busy ourselves to be ready if He comes now.
Now about some not tasting death till Jesus comes in His Glory: Consider the chronology here :
followed by,
There is no text between Ch16 V28 and Ch17 V1 so, six days after Jesus foretold that some standing there would not taste death til..., we read that some did indeed see Jesus in the full Glory of His Kingdom. That then does not support the Hollywood version of reality as told by J L H as the Ghost whisperer.
As Major pointed out....Heb 9:27. Not only is there no second chance, there is no perceptible waiting period...no purgatory.
Blessings,
calvin
Thank you for your blessings and your "alledged" near death experience. I hope I did not convey to you that I had a near death experience. My understanding of them is that they change you fundamentally: no longer afraid of death and a more loving spirit. Plenty of people have bodiess under stress that have nothing that they recall. My point in bringing up the near death experience is that it is indeed, a second chance for some. My father died in 2007, not believing. He was a very good man. He went to church every Sunday with my mother and did the church balance sheet, acounts. He called me one night, unexpectedly after my mother passed. His voice was shaking and said he'd just gotten a call from mom. He asked me what I thought and I said that Mom wanted him to know she was still there. When I was a child, my mother nicknamed me "tape recorder" (nice, huh? I couldn't remember it for years.). One day, I was playing near where he and "Earl the pearl" (my mother called him.) He was much older than my father and he asked him, "You go to church every Sunday. Do you really believe there's a God?" My father said no. I was too shocked at the time to say anything but it ran through my mind, over and over until I was hysterical (I guess) because I feared my father wouldn't go to heaven with the rest of us. He told my mother I'd heard him wrong. I was so upset I decided to run away (I think I wwas 5) and packed all my Sunday through Monday underpants and headed off down the street. I was crying and he came running after me and scooped me up. He told me, of course he believed in God. I wanted to believe him. But he lied. When he was dying of a rare form of cancer, he told us he didn't believe. I wasn't surprised but my two brothers were shocked. Another long story ensues about how God tried to show him but, alas, he died frightened. I told him before he died that he would see me at his funeral telling him, "I told you so!!!!" As I said this a whole flock of butterflies flew about all the mourners. I have personal proof, that I believe, and I don't expect you to, that God did indeed save him. You remind me of him, Calvin.
My dear friend.......Please reject dreams. Dreams are the result of eating the wong food.......stress.......sickness.......
medication or the lack thereof. Dreams are "highly" subjective and can never be trusted as a souse of knowledge or guidence in any way whatsoever.
Rofl, Major :^) Other than not wearing pink (the clothes I was wearing in the dream) until after July 4th (feeling only slightly foolish & superstitious) I tend to agree with you. I talked about the dream because it felt representative to what I'm trying to do here - Find God's people.
As long as I'm here, though - gotta ask - as a parent, how do you view a child's disobedience when he/she lies, blames others, avoids taking responsibility for his actions. If you re-read my post you will see that I did say that Adam & Eve were disobedient. Cain tried to do the same when God asked him where Abel was. Commonly, original sin - the concept- was established in people's eyes as sex whereas it was really not that.
Hi Silk.
I can agree with the reason you are saying this, namely that God is fair on everyone. If someone was brought up in say, satanism, never having an encounter with Jesus. But the truth is that The Holy Spirit is here on earth and He does His 'job' of revealing / presenting Jesus to us properly. Before we die. I believe in near death experiences, 'near death' not after death. If you are also assuming that God will one-day intervene when people are in hell by taking them to heaven, then God would be guilty of removing their free will to reject Him.
Adam, Eve and Cain were not children of God. The human race is a creation. Only when we accept Jesus are we by the blood He shed for us grafted in to the family of God as joint heirs / adopted sons and daughters. Hence Adam and Eve were not dis-obedient. They were merely exercising their free will to reject God.
How do I view a childs disobedience when he/she lies, blames others. etc........???
My dear friend, I am very much an old man with roots that go back into the hills of north Alabama with good old farmers and men who said what that wanted and meant what they said. Those men expected their children to keep their mouth shut and not to speak untill they were asked something. Those men took their children to the fields and taught them how to work by hoeing beans, and cotton and doing farm type work.
I learned at a very early age that I had to do what my parents/grandpatents said or pay the price of rebellion with a stick to my butt. When my father said..............Major, come and get cleaned up and lets eat supper:
I did just that the first time he told me. My dad taught me to do as I was told and to take responsibility for everything that I did. That is called respect and it is sorely lacking in todays youth.
By the grace of God, I married a wonderful woman who was rasied by Christian parents and felt the same way as I felt. We did not ever beat our children but we certainly did use the rod of correction on them just as was done to us, and if given the chance I would do the same thing again.
WHY???? Because our children grew up to be outstanding citizens and Christian believers. Our son is a police chief in a Florida city and our daughter and her husband own two business now. They are raising their children as they were raised and now our grandchildren use words like "yes sir and no mame" to their granparents.
Agreed on the NEAR DEATH thing.
After death is totally differant thing.
As for the other comment about Adam and Eve NOT being dis-obedient and not being the children of God.
If they were NOT disobenient, how do we explain Romans 5:19...........
“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners.”
That is called "Federal Headship".
Then as for Adam and Eve being saved, we need to remember that ALL of the Old Testament saints were saved by faith in a "COMING Messiah". The Blood of the animal sacrifices pointed toward the blood of the cominmg Savior and the Old Test. believers, including Adam and Eve were saved on credit looking forward. Remember that Cains anger toward Abel was because he did not bring a BLOOD sacrifice which his parents would have told him to do.
We today are looking backeards at that event on the cross where the actual blood of Jesus the messiah was spilt which was for the forgiveness of sins for ALL people from Adam to now. The O.T. saints were saved by the blod looking forwad and we are saved by the blood looking backwards.
I agree with you completely on dis-obedience. I noticed my error only after 25mins
. My reasoning was more that the 'dis-obedience' was a sin, not ''naughty''. A sin gets you kicked out of God's presence. A child being naughty does not get kicked out of his fathers presence.As for OT saints being ''children'' of God by faith in the coming Messiah. I disagree. What if Jesus did no go to the cross? I agree that they were justified by their faith. Animal sacrifice was good and proof of their faith, but animal blood could never make them part of God's ''family'', merely a justified creation. Hence they went to Abrahams bosom, not immediately paradise or heaven. If Jesus never died, then we would all just be saints in heaven, not children of God.
Whenever I have a vision or a dream that feels real, I feel like you did. There is a recent thread on this forum talking on astral travel and how its unscriptural. I see earlier in this thread that you mention re-incarnation. Just something to consider there is that fallen angels have been with us from day 1. When we are possessed I believe they are able to give us their memories of the past, making us feel as though we were actually there. Re-incarnation is completely unscriptural.
I agree with you completely on dis-obedience. I noticed my error only after 25mins
As for OT saints being ''children'' of God by faith in the coming Messiah. I disagree. What if Jesus did no go to the cross? I agree that they were justified by their faith. Animal sacrifice was good and proof of their faith, but animal blood could never make them part of God's ''family'', merely a justified creation. Hence they went to Abrahams bosom, not immediately paradise or heaven. If Jesus never died, then we would all just be saints in heaven, not children of God.
BUT HE DID DIE. We can not live our lives based on what might have been, only what actually was.
My dear friend.......Animal sacrifice could never make them a part of God family is correct but it was NEVER supposed to. IT POINTED forward toward the sacrifice of the Messiah, IT WAS FAITH that. Follow me now please.......................
Hebrews 11:4
"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."
Genesis 4:4-5
"And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell".
Now what was the differance between the boys two offerings?
God revealed to them that they were to bring a "sacrifice" a LAMB and that lamb pointed to the comeing Lamb od God, Messiah Jesus. Both boys were clear on what to bring. Abel brought a BLOOD sacrifice and Cain brought what he had grown. Abels sacrifice points to the BLOOD and Cains points to HIS OWN WORKS. There is the key to the Jedo-Christian belief.
If you were to ask Abel ..............."My brother, why did you bring a lamb?"
He would have said to you................God commanded it!!!!!
Do you think the lamb takes away you sin???
OF COURSE NOT would be his answer.
He would say to you.........."I just told you that God commanded us to bring it. He said to my mother that there is ONE coming in her line who is going to be the Savior of men and that person is the ONE to whom this little lamb points to. I am coming in faith looking to the time when that Savior will come.
Abels sacrifice pointed to Christ and he came by faith----------and that is the way of salvation my friend into the family of God.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Now consider Hebrews 9:11-22
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator . For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
The blood of animals in the Old Test. did not and could not "remove" sin.
The blood of animals "covered sin" not remove sin which is why the blood atonement had to be repeated every year for the sins of the people.
But now consider Hebrews 10:11-17
"And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God, From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
No......I do not bash and do not want to be bashed. Life is to hard and too short to live like that. All I try to do here is allow my experience and knowledge to help people as yourself to understand the Scriptures and then allow YOU to may the correct Biblical choices in your life and in your understanding.
Lets see if we can help you through this. If you will allow me............
Matthew 16:28 belongs to chapter 17 and actually should be the first verse of chapter #17, because it is the account of the Transfiguration of Jesus. The Transfiguration explains clearly what He meant when He made the statement in verse #28. Remember that the key to proper understanding the Bible is always.......CONTEXT.......anyay----
Matthew 16:28
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
This was fulfilled for the apostles in the Transfiguration of Jesus. The Transfiguration is that picture of the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. The statement here referrred to the 3 disciples who were present, Peter, James and John and their experience on the mount of Transfuguration when those 3 men witnessed the glory of Jesus as Moses and Elijah came down to talk with Him. Those 3 disciples at thet time 'SAW THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM".
Your comment then was.............
Revelation tells us that until you accept the mark of the beast, you still have a chance and and can return to God.
The last book in the Bible that you would want to look at for salvation doctrine is probably the Revelation.
Time and space will not allow me to dig into that. Simply know that the peopl of whom are alive at the time you are referring to will mostly be Jews whom God is dealing with then. But what it is not is a SECOND chance. THese people have never heard the gospel and are NOT saved so the thought of a SECOND chance is not in view at all. Then can come to Christ and be saved by faith in the Lord Jesus and they are then saved for the FIRST time so long as they do not accept the Mark of the Beast.
Your comment was.....
I think with the new covenant made when Christ died for our sins, that mankind as a whole was given a reprieve.
No so my friend. A "reprieve from what"??? The only teo things we can consider Biblically would be the Law and Grace....correct?
Grace is not a reprieve from the Law. The New Covenant is better than the Old one.
Hebrews 8:6...........
"But now hath he (Christ) obtained a more excellent ministry by how much he also is the mediator of a BETTER Covenant which was established upon better promises".
God gave the Law to Moses and then He gave him instructions for the tabernacle and its functions and service. It was there at the tabernacle that sin was dealt with. Remember..........NO ONE WAS EVER SAVED BY KEEPING THE LAW!!!! No one ever came to God and said............"I have kept all of Your commandments therefore receive me".
NOT SO. They were continually bringing sacrifices to the tabernacle because they had continually sinned.
The Law did not save them from sin but revealed to them that they had in fact sinned. Christ is now the great High Priest and the sacrifice of His life and shedding of His blood save us the first time we believe and accept Him.
Then your comment was..................
I don’t know for a fact, but I lean to reincarnation because I was given a dream that eerily showed that I had been reincarnated.
As I have already stated........REJECT DREAMS and here is the reason why clear as day. What your mind said to you while sleeping is absolutely in disagreement with the Word of God. The Bible in no way what so ever teaches reincarnation. The Word of God teaches RESURRECTION not reincarnation.
Hebrews 9:27
King James Version (KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"..
Then you stated..........
But the 2 apostles that knew him say there are second chances. Revelation tells us in the end days, the dead
will rise.
Which two apostles would that be and what was it they said about a second chance?
Please list the Bible book, chapter and verse and I will respond to it.
As for the Revelation telling us that the dead will rise, that is true but you did not complete the "CONTEXT" Truth is always in the CONTEXT. The Revelation tells us clearly that the lost dead souls will be resurrected for judgment, NOT a SECOND CHANCE.
Revelation 20:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Notice that there is NO ONE found who is given a second chance. This is the judgment of the lost after their bodies are resurrected from the grave.
Then you comment was........................
The souls freed from their temporal body are going somewhere. There are about a million (slight exaggeration) Ghost Hunter type programs on a wide range of channels. They have proved, in my estimation that there is life beyond death. Most of these ghosts are afraid to go into the light (cross over) because of something they did in life.
Who says that???? "The souls are freed from there temporal bodies are going some where???
Please read and study Luke 16 my dear friend. The souls of the lost go to the "TORMENTS" compartment of Hades. They are not freed to go anywhere. They are resurrected to their bodies as we jusr saw in Revelation 20 after the 1000 year rule of Christ and that is for judgment to the lake of fire, NOT A SECOND CHANCE.
TV show that pander to a certain pre-conceived opinion does not in any way constitute truth. Yes, there is life after death..................in heaven with the Lord or in hell with the devil. That is the only two places the Bible teaches. Everything else is what someone thinks or dreams and there is a real problem when we start to believe what a man says.
Now I pray that the Lord will bless you and I do hope this has helped you. The point is this........read, study the Bible and use it as your source of knowledge. NOT what TV says or other people tell you.
My dear friend, please hear me when I say that there is no SECOND chance after death. Death removes all choices that we could have had when alive.