The Prayer Of Faith Vs. If It Be Your Will: Which Gets Answered?

[lesjude]

Most .....MOST people would pray and then take their child to the hospital for treatment................
at least I would.

This is true but not NORMAL Christianity. If Jesus does these things for us why wouldn't He do them for anyone that met the conditions. He has NEVER failed us.

That is not FEAR nor a lack of faith but instead good common sense!!!

Please give scripture for your position. There is nothing reasonable or common sense about faith. You either choose to believe God no matter what or you do not. Here are two examples:
21 So they went up and spied out the land from the Wilderness of Zin as far as Rehob, near the entrance of Hamath. 22 And they went up through the South and came to Hebron; Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, were there. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.) 23 Then they came to the Valley of Eshcol, and there cut down a branch with one cluster of grapes; they carried it between two of them on a pole. They also brought some of the pomegranates and figs. 24 The place was called the Valley of Eshcol,[a] because of the cluster which the men of Israel cut down there. 25 And they returned from spying out the land after forty days.
26 Now they departed and came back to Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the children of Israel in the Wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 Then they told him, and said: “We went to the land where you sent us. It truly flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit. 28 Nevertheless the people who dwell in the land are strong; the cities are fortified and very large; moreover we saw the descendants of Anak there. 29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the South; the Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the mountains; and the Canaanites dwell by the sea and along the banks of the Jordan.”
30 Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said, “Let us go up at once and take possession, for we are well able to overcome it.”
31 But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we.” 32 And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. 33 There we saw the giants[b] (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”
And:
2 Kings 4:18-23

New King James Version (NKJV)
18 And the child grew. Now it happened one day that he went out to his father, to the reapers. 19 And he said to his father, “My head, my head!”
So he said to a servant, “Carry him to his mother.” 20 When he had taken him and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died. 21 And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, shut the door upon him, and went out. 22 Then she called to her husband, and said, “Please send me one of the young men and one of the donkeys, that I may run to the man of God and come back.”
23 So he said, “Why are you going to him today? It is neither the New Moon nor the Sabbath.”
And she said, “It is well.”
26 Please run now to meet her, and say to her, ‘Is it well with you? Is it well with your husband? Is it well with the child?’”
And she answered, “It is well.”

 

[lesjude]

Please give scripture for your position. There is nothing reasonable or common sense about faith. You either choose to believe God no matter what or you do not. Here are two examples:
21 So they went up and spied out the land from the Wilderness of Zin as far as Rehob, near the entrance of Hamath. 22 And they went up through the South and came to Hebron; Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, were there. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.) 23 Then they came to the Valley of Eshcol, and there cut down a branch with one cluster of grapes; they carried it between two of them on a pole. They also brought some of the pomegranates and figs. 24 The place was called the Valley of Eshcol,[a] because of the cluster which the men of Israel cut down there. 25 And they returned from spying out the land after forty days.
26 Now they departed and came back to Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the children of Israel in the Wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 Then they told him, and said: “We went to the land where you sent us. It truly flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit. 28 Nevertheless the people who dwell in the land are strong; the cities are fortified and very large; moreover we saw the descendants of Anak there. 29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the South; the Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the mountains; and the Canaanites dwell by the sea and along the banks of the Jordan.”
30 Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said, “Let us go up at once and take possession, for we are well able to overcome it.”
31 But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we.” 32 And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. 33 There we saw the giants[b] (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”
And:
2 Kings 4:18-23

New King James Version (NKJV)
18 And the child grew. Now it happened one day that he went out to his father, to the reapers. 19 And he said to his father, “My head, my head!”
So he said to a servant, “Carry him to his mother.” 20 When he had taken him and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died. 21 And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, shut the door upon him, and went out. 22 Then she called to her husband, and said, “Please send me one of the young men and one of the donkeys, that I may run to the man of God and come back.”
23 So he said, “Why are you going to him today? It is neither the New Moon nor the Sabbath.”
And she said, “It is well.”
26 Please run now to meet her, and say to her, ‘Is it well with you? Is it well with your husband? Is it well with the child?’”
And she answered, “It is well.”

It seems I have been banned. For which truth have you done this?

 

[HisManySongs]

It seems I have been banned. For which truth have you done this?

No, I just deleted two of your threads attacking the medical/pharmaceutical industry.

 

[lesjude]

No, I just deleted two of your threads attacking the medical/pharmaceutical industry.

If there is anything in either thread that is not true I want to know please. An informed decision seems desirable unless the mind is already made up. Don't ask don't tell seems to apply to the medical system. Medical mind control is a very powerful spirit.
Thank you.

 

[Major]

Please give scripture for your position. There is nothing reasonable or common sense about faith. You either choose to believe God no matter what or you do not. Here are two examples:
21 So they went up and spied out the land from the Wilderness of Zin as far as Rehob, near the entrance of Hamath. 22 And they went up through the South and came to Hebron; Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, were there. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.) 23 Then they came to the Valley of Eshcol, and there cut down a branch with one cluster of grapes; they carried it between two of them on a pole. They also brought some of the pomegranates and figs. 24 The place was called the Valley of Eshcol,[a] because of the cluster which the men of Israel cut down there. 25 And they returned from spying out the land after forty days.
26 Now they departed and came back to Moses and Aaron and all the congregation of the children of Israel in the Wilderness of Paran, at Kadesh; they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land. 27 Then they told him, and said: “We went to the land where you sent us. It truly flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit. 28 Nevertheless the people who dwell in the land are strong; the cities are fortified and very large; moreover we saw the descendants of Anak there. 29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the South; the Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the mountains; and the Canaanites dwell by the sea and along the banks of the Jordan.”
30 Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said, “Let us go up at once and take possession, for we are well able to overcome it.”
31 But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we.” 32 And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. 33 There we saw the giants[b] (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”
And:
2 Kings 4:18-23

New King James Version (NKJV)
18 And the child grew. Now it happened one day that he went out to his father, to the reapers. 19 And he said to his father, “My head, my head!”
So he said to a servant, “Carry him to his mother.” 20 When he had taken him and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died. 21 And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, shut the door upon him, and went out. 22 Then she called to her husband, and said, “Please send me one of the young men and one of the donkeys, that I may run to the man of God and come back.”
23 So he said, “Why are you going to him today? It is neither the New Moon nor the Sabbath.”
And she said, “It is well.”
26 Please run now to meet her, and say to her, ‘Is it well with you? Is it well with your husband? Is it well with the child?’”
And she answered, “It is well.”

Major 1:1
"God helps those who also help themselves"

 

[Major]

If there is anything in either thread that is not true I want to know please. An informed decision seems desirable unless the mind is already made up. Don't ask don't tell seems to apply to the medical system. Medical mind control is a very powerful spirit.
Thank you.

Religious brainwashing s pretty powerful as well.

 

[Glomung]

You use the term "normal Christianity" as if it meant something, do you care to enlighten us
on what you mean by it?

The bit of scripture you quote (Revelation 2:20) has nothing whatsoever to do with women serving in the church.
You have a very nasty habit of misrepresenting the facts and hoping nobody notices. I find the heathen do the same thing.

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. Why do you have a problem with celebrating His birth?
Has it become commercialized? Yes. Are we free to ignore this commercialization and celebrate the holy day properly?
Yes.

Easter is the celebration of His resurrection. Why do you have a problem with this? If bunnies and eggs bother you, don't have them in your celebration. I don't.

 

[Kevin]

My experience with people like Lesjude is just to ignore them. They come in here wanting to create debate and push their weak theologies (usually with weak hermenuetics and exogesis) All they do is create guilt amongst new believers who doubt their faith because God does not heal them.

God does heal - I have seen it a number of times but it is always within His will.

 

[KingJ]

Lesjude, not going to hospital is tempting God. If a woman is raped, she immediately goes to the hospital for injections. Would you advise them to avoid hospital? It is like me offering you a parachute when I see you falling off a cliff. For you to ignore my offer and trust the 'promise' that God will send His angels to catch you, would be to tempt God, exactly what the devil wanted. The devil quoted scripture. There is NO scripture saying that God will NOT send His angels to catch you if you fall. But yet Jesus DID NOT jump. God's provision may not always be miraculous healing. Normal Christianity is not to tempt God. Normal Christianity is to live daily with a LOT of faith in an unseen God, trusting that He is now our Father who will never leave nor forsake us, where faith for healing is considered trivial and not even worth harping on.

I don't agree with your take on the differences between the new and old covenant either. I agree with the scripture you wanted me to read, but I form a different conclusion. It seems healing discussion is pointless when we disagree with Christianity from the onset. Simple example, you mention there are 200 plus promises to us. Why would anyone actually count them? My worker who cleans my house gets paid for 3 plus promises by her. Wash dishes, clean floor and iron clothing. My wife on the other hand is capable of 1 000 000 plus promises to me. If I had to hold her to anyone of them though, she would smack me in the face. The only promise I need to expect and hold onto is that she will be faithful to the vow to stay with me through sickness and health until death. Likewise with God the Father, we can only hold Him to the promise that He will never leave nor forsake us. You are encouraging Christians to deal with God like I would my worker as opposed to Jesus our bridegroom, best friend and God the Father.

My friends who believe as you do, I have no doubt they love the Lord and as you do, mean well. I have advised them to take a break from the teachers teaching this and meditate on scripture alone with the Holy Spirit. Christian common sense is needed imho.

 

[KingJ]

My experience with people like Lesjude is just to ignore them. They come in here wanting to create debate and push their weak theologies (usually with weak hermenuetics and exogesis) All they do is create guilt amongst new believers who doubt their faith because God does not heal them.

God does heal - I have seen it a number of times but it is always within His will.

This belief is taking off. So many of my Christian friends now believe this. It definitely causes guilt at first and later, hatred for God. I suppose we are to expect teaching like this in these days.

 

[HisManySongs]

Lesjude, not going to hospital is tempting God. If a woman is raped, she immediately goes to the hospital for injections. Would you advise them to avoid hospital? It is like me offering you a parachute when I see you falling off a cliff.

Reminds me of the two rowboats and a helicopter story.

 

[KingJ]

Just thinking about it more. Scripture says that if we cast demons out of someone who does not want them out, more will return. So, if demons are causing a person to have the flu virus, casting them out may cure him today, but tommorrow he will have the ebola virus?

 

[Major]

My experience with people like Lesjude is just to ignore them. They come in here wanting to create debate and push their weak theologies (usually with weak hermenuetics and exogesis) All they do is create guilt amongst new believers who doubt their faith because God does not heal them.

God does heal - I have seen it a number of times but it is always within His will.

Excellant responce.

 

[Major]

Lesjude, not going to hospital is tempting God. If a woman is raped, she immediately goes to the hospital for injections. Would you advise them to avoid hospital? It is like me offering you a parachute when I see you falling off a cliff. For you to ignore my offer and trust the 'promise' that God will send His angels to catch you, would be to tempt God, exactly what the devil wanted. The devil quoted scripture. There is NO scripture saying that God will NOT send His angels to catch you if you fall. But yet Jesus DID NOT jump. God's provision may not always be miraculous healing. Normal Christianity is not to tempt God. Normal Christianity is to live daily with a LOT of faith in an unseen God, trusting that He is now our Father who will never leave nor forsake us, where faith for healing is considered trivial and not even worth harping on.

I don't agree with your take on the differences between the new and old covenant either. I agree with the scripture you wanted me to read, but I form a different conclusion. It seems healing discussion is pointless when we disagree with Christianity from the onset. Simple example, you mention there are 200 plus promises to us. Why would anyone actually count them? My worker who cleans my house gets paid for 3 plus promises by her. Wash dishes, clean floor and iron clothing. My wife on the other hand is capable of 1 000 000 plus promises to me. If I had to hold her to anyone of them though, she would smack me in the face. The only promise I need to expect and hold onto is that she will be faithful to the vow to stay with me through sickness and health until death. Likewise with God the Father, we can only hold Him to the promise that He will never leave nor forsake us. You are encouraging Christians to deal with God like I would my worker as opposed to Jesus our bridegroom, best friend and God the Father.

My friends who believe as you do, I have no doubt they love the Lord and as you do, mean well. I have advised them to take a break from the teachers teaching this and meditate on scripture alone with the Holy Spirit. Christian common sense is needed imho.

Excellant responce my friend and I agree completly.

 

[lesjude]

Just thinking about it more. Scripture says that if we cast demons out of someone who does not want them out, more will return. So, if demons are causing a person to have the flu virus, casting them out may cure him today, but tommorrow he will have the ebola virus?

Here is what Jesus did for large crowds of people. It does not say anything about sin. At that point it was left to the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and a need to change their thinking. They understood the source of their oppression/possession and were free to choose how to behave in the future.
Matthew 8:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, Matthew 4:24
New King James Version (NKJV)
24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

 

[lesjude]

My experience with people like Lesjude is just to ignore them. They come in here wanting to create debate and push their weak theologies (usually with weak hermenuetics and exogesis) All they do is create guilt amongst new believers who doubt their faith because God does not heal them.

God does heal - I have seen it a number of times but it is always within His will.

You have given no scripture for your position on healing. I have given many plus 34 years of testimony to God's faithfulness. You have given none.
The correct response of a disciple not having faith is to not get offended or guilty but seek Jesus to find out how that can be changed. He ALWAYS shows the issue and how to correct it.
Here is what Jesus said to His disciples on the issue of lack of faith:Mark 9:18-19
New King James Version (NKJV)
18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.”
19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.”
Here is how His disciples react: Mark 9:28-29
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?”
29 So He said to them, “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.


They did not get offended and leave. If they had here is what Jesus said to those who those who left because of offense: John 6:65-66
New King James Version (NKJV)
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

 

[HisManySongs]

Praying "if it be thy will" about a clear promise of God is not faith. It usually is an excuse for putting the blame on God if nothing happens, or ignorance of God's will.

As believers we have everything this woman did not with the possible exception of opposition from "others". We have the clear word of God, the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, Jesus our High Priest making intercession for us, the Blood Of Jesus, the promise He always hears us, and always an answer of YES!

Why were the disciples taught to pray 'Thy will be done'?

Has God ever answered you with no?

 

[covered_by_grace]

.... Simple example, you mention there are 200 plus promises to us. Why would anyone actually count them? My worker who cleans my house gets paid for 3 plus promises by her. Wash dishes, clean floor and iron clothing. My wife on the other hand is capable of 1 000 000 plus promises to me. If I had to hold her to anyone of them though, she would smack me in the face. The only promise I need to expect and hold onto is that she will be faithful to the vow to stay with me through sickness and health until death. Likewise with God the Father, we can only hold Him to the promise that He will never leave nor forsake us. You are encouraging Christians to deal with God like I would my worker as opposed to Jesus our bridegroom, best friend and God the Father. ...

Amen!

@lesjude: IMHO you are still very, very focused on THIS life's issues. As followers of the Living Christ who was raised from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father, aren't we supposed to be preparing for eternal life - not focusing on how to be more successful and more comfortable in this life by focusing on being healed of an infirmity, or make a bill, or find a winning lottery ticket.....whatever it may be? He is clear: "Seek FIRST the Kingdom of God...."

(BTW - I am not saying here that He is not absolutely interested in every detail in our lives! I only mean to say - His focus is not like ours; ours focus should be like His.)

In the verses you quoted in your post (#35) you absolutely miss His main concern. YES, he came to heal the sick and infirmed, and the broken-hearted. He could have done that from HEAVEN, my friend! But, what was JESUS' main concern for these people, and by extension all of humanity? THEIR (OUR) ETERNAL LIFE WITH THE FATHER. That is the ONLY reason He came...to reconcile us to the Father! Right? He had to die a physical, blood-soaked, tortured, horrible, inconceivable death.

As the incarnate God and being fully the Son of Man, simultaneously, He (the Son of God and the fullness of the Godhead incarnate) was broken-hearted to see His (the Son of Man's) people's pain and suffering so, of course, He healed them of their physical infirmities - first. But, He didn't always heal. The answer wasn't always no. The answer wasn't always yes. His Infinite Wisdom sees the heart's deepest needs - whether they be physical healing, mental healing, spiritual healing or otherwise. HE alone decides WHAT we need and thus He delivers upon His promise to love us more completely than we could even imagine. He only asks that we trust He will meet our needs. I will say it again...NEEDS. Our perception of a situation is not always His perception of the situation.

Please, please allow the Holy Spirit to show you what He desires you to see, not what I, we (on this forum), or anyone else in your day-to-day path desires for you to see and understand regarding this matter. As much as you may wish we (on this forum) would open our spiritual minds to this "truth" you so adamantly proclaim, my sincere wish and prayer is that you would be willing to genuinely step outside of your traditional teachings, and even what you've personally experienced, to be open to see just what He is trying to teach you at this moment in time - I don't proclaim to know this - only that the current dissension on the subject WILL be used for His glory, somehow. (And for that matter, we would all do well to do the same!) I mean, we came here - to this forum - to sharpen our irons, right? We can do that without piercing each other, I believe.

REMEMBER: He doesn't have to follow any rules. He is the Rule.

Please forgive me if I've been anything to you except a differing opinion, as I don't intend to be anything else, especially "right." Instead, may His name be praised forevermore!

 

[lesjude]

Lesjude, not going to hospital is tempting God. If a woman is raped, she immediately goes to the hospital for injections. Would you advise them to avoid hospital? It is like me offering you a parachute when I see you falling off a cliff. For you to ignore my offer and trust the 'promise' that God will send His angels to catch you, would be to tempt God, exactly what the devil wanted. The devil quoted scripture. There is NO scripture saying that God will NOT send His angels to catch you if you fall. But yet Jesus DID NOT jump. God's provision may not always be miraculous healing. Normal Christianity is not to tempt God. Normal Christianity is to live daily with a LOT of faith in an unseen God, trusting that He is now our Father who will never leave nor forsake us, where faith for healing is considered trivial and not even worth harping on.

Again you need to give scripture for your opinions as I have.
Trusting Jesus for what He has promised when one is needful and obedient is not tempting God. Doing something deliberately to "prove" God as the devil tried to get Jesus to do is. 1 Corinthians 10:9 refers to an incident in the wilderness as an example.
I do not tell anyone to go or not go to a hospital. They will go to the Physician they live closest to regardless.
Healing trivial? Jesus healed thousands and told us to do the same. Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8. He provided healing in His horrible death on the cross. Isaiah 53:4-5.

I don't agree with your take on the differences between the new and old covenant either. I agree with the scripture you wanted me to read, but I form a different conclusion. It seems healing discussion is pointless when we disagree with Christianity from the onset. Simple example, you mention there are 200 plus promises to us. Why would anyone actually count them? My worker who cleans my house gets paid for 3 plus promises by her. Wash dishes, clean floor and iron clothing. My wife on the other hand is capable of 1 000 000 plus promises to me. If I had to hold her to anyone of them though, she would smack me in the face. The only promise I need to expect and hold onto is that she will be faithful to the vow to stay with me through sickness and health until death. Likewise with God the Father, we can only hold Him to the promise that He will never leave nor forsake us. You are encouraging Christians to deal with God like I would my worker as opposed to Jesus our bridegroom, best friend and God the Father.

I do not remember the scripture I gave.
I have not counted but it would make an interesting study.
Is it not nice that your wife or mine for that matter is not God?
Jesus is all you say and makes promises to His bride of healing, protection, material provision, deliverance, forgiveness and more in this life and eternity with Him. He has not changed any of the blessings He promises. You need to give scripture that He has. Numbers 23:19-20
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
20 Behold, I have received a command to bless;
He has blessed, and I cannot reverse it.

(And neither can all the religious arguments/doctrines of men in the world.)
My friends who believe as you do, I have no doubt they love the Lord and as you do, mean well. I have advised them to take a break from the teachers teaching this and meditate on scripture alone with the Holy Spirit. Christian common sense is needed imho.

Do they live it?
There is nothing "common sense" about Bible faith. Please see Romans 12:1, 2 Kings 4:8-37, Numbers 13 and 14, Hebrews 11:17-19 and Job 13:15.

The test of loving the Lord is to obey. He says without faith it is impossible to please Him and give examples of the type of faith He expects in Hebrews 11. You will note healing is not mentioned because it is a given that the least amount of faith and obedience will accomplish that.

 

[lesjude]

Why were the disciples taught to pray 'Thy will be done'?

Here is the scripture:Matthew 6:10
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.We are to pray that the Kingdom gospel be preached and demonstrated just
as Jesus did it bringing God's will of forgiveness, eternal life, health, healing, deliverance and all the other Kingdom blessings to earth. Disciples should know God's will in these areas because Jesus demonstrated it. We are praying that God opens the way to do it. If disciples do not do these things no one else will. Acts 4:29-30
New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Has God ever answered you with no?

No, not on a promise from scripture. In fact He even gives me the desires of my heart.