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The Prayer Of Faith Vs. If It Be Your Will: Which Gets Answered?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by lesjude, Jun 16, 2012.

  1. The Prayer Of Faith Vs. If It Be Your Will: Which Gets Answered?
    Can Christians receive a yes by faith to prayer if the request is contrary to the latest teaching from the Father's heart, opposed by all the elders; they are called names, told no, and told to go away?

    Matthew 15:21-28

    King James Version (KJV)

    21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

    22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

    23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
    She gets no answer and the whole "church" is against her

    24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Jesus clearly says it is not His will at this time and not for her.

    25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

    26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
    Jesus just taught about giving to the dogs in Matthew 7:6
    Jesus calls her a little dog. Still another reason it is not His will.

    27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

    28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
    She NEVER prayed "if it be thy will". She pressed in for her request by FAITH and received it. Jesus expects His people to ask in faith knowing His will to heal, deliver and save. 2 Corinthians 1:20 I am sure no one ever asks for forgiveness of sins prefaced with "if it be thy will". Jesus made it clear it was willing and able to do BOTH.

    Matthew 9:4-6

    King James Version (KJV)

    4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

    5For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

    6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

    Here is the point. She had no promise(s) for anything. We do.

    Psalm 103:1-5

    King James Version (KJV)
    Psalm 103

    1Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.

    2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

    3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

    4Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

    5Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's

    Jesus ignored her. Here is our promise:

    1 John 5:14-15

    King James Version (KJV)

    14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

    15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

    Jesus called her a dog. We are not "dogs" but sons/daughters by adoption, seated in heavenly places with Jesus, and joint heirs with Him and entitled to all the promises included in salvation.

    The apostles opposed her. Opposition by well meaning ignorant Christians and anti Christ forces to what Jesus promises cannot make of none effect God's clear word.

    The prayer of faith is always answered by a yes and amen according to the Bible.
    2 Corinthians 1:20

    King James Version (KJV)

    20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Below is an example:
    James 5:14-15

    King James Version (KJV)

    14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him

    Praying "if it be thy will" about a clear promise of God is not faith. It usually is an excuse for putting the blame on God if nothing happens, or ignorance of God's will.

    As believers we have everything this woman did not with the possible exception of opposition from "others". We have the clear word of God, the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, Jesus our High Priest making intercession for us, the Blood Of Jesus, the promise He always hears us, and always an answer of YES! If an unsaved little dog going against a recent teaching by Jesus Himself, which she may have even heard, can get a healing what is our excuse./?
    GodSpeaks likes this.
  2. The answer to prayer is always one of three answers......
    1. Yes
    2. No
    3. Later.

    The "dogs " reffereanced were NOT animals but "lost" people.
  3. Actually the reference in the Greek is to literal household dogs, in this case young ones or puppies. The the Greek word is kunarion in this passage. No matter however because the point is Jesus was saying it was not for her.

    Please give scripture for a "no" or "later" for the prayer of faith based on a promise of God in the Bible. Below are just a few of over 200 positive promises which are answered with a YES to those in Christ.

    2 Corinthians 1:20
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
    Psalm 103:1-5
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    103 Bless the Lord, O my soul;
    And all that is within me, bless His holy name!
    2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
    And forget not all His benefits:
    3 Who forgives all your iniquities,
    Who heals all your diseases,
    4 Who redeems your life from destruction,
    Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
    5 Who satisfies your mouth with good things,
    So that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
    James 5:14-15
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

    Matthew 6:31-34

    New King James Version (NKJV)
    31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

    Psalm 91 has numerous assurances and sets a believer free from the legal protection racket of insurance.
    GodSpeaks likes this.
  4. Oooo.......My very first mistake!! (lol)

    Dogs does indeed refer to animls here.

    If the answer of prayer to God is not NO at times, then why does a baby die of cancer?
    Why does a warrior die in battle?
  5. Hi Lesjude.

    We don't do X and demand / claim / have faith for Y and get it. God did that with the Jews, for example the law of tithing. We have moved on from that covenant (not that we were even Jews) to a better covenant where we walk in full provision according to His will, which may or may not be according to our most powerful prayer of faith.

    You are insinuating that as children of God, if we are 1) dumb (not knowing His promises or scripture) or 2) nervous (not having sufficient faith that He is good, if you are implying in His existence or power then you are implying we are not saved) that He will not attend to our prayer? That is pure heresy. If anything a loving father will help the dumb nervous kid first. The only qualification to getting His full ability to help is being a child.

    I know you mean well! But please try see how this is construing scripture to support us treating God as though we are still in the old covenant. It is dis-respect to demand and twist God's arm on any matter. We ask for the smallest grain of food with humility. Would you want your kid or wife to speak to you like you are proposing we speak to God the Father?

    It took a large amount of faith to get saved. More faith then Peter needed to walk on water. More faith then a mustard seed needed to move a mountain, let alone bodily healing. As saved Christians we walk at an extremely high level of faith. An unsaved person, different story entirely. To them if only they would muster up the faith of a mustard seed God would be able to move a mountain for them. Do you believe it takes more faith to believe that God will heal our bodies then to believe that we are adopted sons of God whom He will look after and provide for, for all eternity?

    If one of your children asks you to change his car's tyre and you say no. Will you do it at the request of another child? Our earthly bodies are to be seen as a temporary vessels to get us from a to b.
    Major likes this.
  6. Beware of viewing The Almighty as a "vending machine god." To say His answer is always a yes, is incorrect and taken out of context. Clearly, He says "no" or "wait" to His people; we have many examples of this in the Bible, both in the OT and NT.

    We have been given permission from the King of Kings to approach His throne boldly but be careful of demanding anything of Him or His authority to act a certain way in any situation. He does as He pleases for His purpose and His people and His Glory.

    Does the pot demand of the Potter?
    Major likes this.
  7. Healing in 1 John 5:14-15 for instance requires the prayer of faith by the elders. If there is a alternate source of healing in their minds besides God alone then the prayer of faith is not possible. For most the medical system and the prayer of "faith" are both used. God requires his ministry to believe in His integrity and character to do what He promises. If someone dies God did not miss it because He does not lie. It is up to Christians to seek God as to where they missed it, not change His word to fit their experience.
    I have prayed for 2 with terminal cancer and Jesus healed both. and we have lived without any use of the medical system for 34 years. Please see "Our Testimony/Normal Christianity.
    A warrior dies in battle fighting for a carnal nation because he may not be a Christian and if he is he is disobedient to God's clear word. NT Christianity in nonresistant. Does God preserve the elect through wars? Yes, I know of many cases. However that does not mean approval of what they are doing as soldiers. It proved God is good and merciful and wants all to come to repentance.
  9. I need you to give me one scripture that says God will not do as He promises in His word for His children when they meet the simple conditions that He gives the grace to meet and are clear in the Bible.
    We are told we are heirs and joint heirs with Christ. A mature son has sonship rights and it is the Father's good pleasure to give us the Kingdom.
  10. Hi Lesjude

    I don’t want your thread closed, lets try avoid a debate. I feel this is an important subject for Christians to hear both sides on and form their own opinion when meditating on the scriptures with The Holy Spirit. I know many good Christians who believe as you do.
    I recently discussed this with some of them. We used the same scriptures to form our differing conclusions. The core disagreement became very clear. Namely a difference in understanding of the old and new covenants. How would you define the change from the old to the new covenant in our dealings with God?

    I am also curious. If you pray for healing and the person is not healed. What is lacking your side and how do you improve your odds? If its faith, what faith exactly?
  11. You may as well ask me to find a scripture that says God will not catch us if we fall. It is clearly written that God will send His angels to catch us if we fall. Jesus gave a good answer.
    What's the difference?
  12. You did not anser the question.

    You gave the standard responce which was expected but it does not answer the question.

    Listen to your words................
    "If there is a alternate source of healing in their minds besides God alone then the prayer of faith is not possible".

    What in the world does that mean my friend??????????

    Have you stood with the parents of a 3 year old little girl when their baby deies from cancer and then told them what you just said????

    "OH....your child just passed away because you had an alternate source of healing in your mind".

    That is insidiouse!! If I was the father, and you told me that I probably would put YOU in the hospital.
    You are saying that a parent standing by his dieing childs bed has something on his mind other than that child getting better???

    My friend, I have been in that room and on more than one occassion. The only answer is that God said NO to the prayer of the saints. The only answer that can be given which is acceptable is that God need that child in heaven more than the parents need it here on the earth.

    Then ..........
    "A warrior dies in battle fighting for a carnal nation because he may not be a Christian and if he is he is disobedient to God's clear word."

    Again, that is not an answer. It is obviousely a programed responce, but not one that I would tell a wounded warriors family. Again........have you personally went to a family whose loved one has died in combat for his country and told them those words????

    I didn't think so!!!!

    Again we see that the answer to the prayers of the saints of the fallen hero from God was NO. It just is not that hard to grasp my friend.

    I am trying very hard here to be sweet and caring and I do not want to NOT be encouraging to you, but I must at this point tell you that your lack of compassion and understanding bothers me considerabily.
    KingJ likes this.

  13. John 9:1–3.
    In this passage, Jesus and the disciples observed a man who was blind from birth. His disciples, apparently believing that his blindness
    had to be the result of his individual sin and the punishment for it.
    They asked a pointed question:......."Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents
    that he was born blind".

    He then proceeded to heal the blind man. Christ made it clear that the blindness of the person was NOT the result of individual sin of either the blind person or his parents. This passage proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that teaching that every sickness is NOT the result of individual sins or anyone associated with the person of the sick and is patently wrong and unbiblical.

  14. AMEN to that - the heirs with Christ statement! And...what is the Kingdom of God? I believe it is the heart and core of Jesus' redeeming Love, the Gospel.

    While I would love to agree with you and take the 2. Cor. 1 16-20 out of context and use it for my purpose of "holding God to His word" (...shudder...) I simply won't reduce Him to serve my finite level, finite concerns, and finite attempts at righteousness which are filthy rags compared to His. Oh, He will take care of His people, that much is evident. No doubt it is His desire to give His children, as heirs with Christ, the good gifts; but demanding them...that can't be good IMO.

    Prov. 10:28 (NKJV) "The hope of the righteous brings joy, but the expectation of the wicked will perish." Remember, He is the only righteous Judge of the motives of the heart - we cannot do this.

    My hope is in Him. He will meet my real needs, unequivocally - I am His precious daughter and Bride-To-Be! He knows what I need BETTER than I because He knows my heart better than I.

    In 2. Cor. 1: 16-20 should not be twisted out of context. V. 16 "For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God." WHAT is the nature of God's ETERNAL promises? Salvation and redeeming love (a relationship!) unto Him.

    You are assuming that all answers from God are to be YES. On what basis do you adopt that assumption? The Word as a whole does not support that line of thinking. And, since He's the same now as He was then, I don't believe you can use the ideology of the New Covenant to support this.

    Read Deut. 3:23-28. Moses was told "no" by God. And if I'm not mistaken, Moses met a lot of His conditions, but God rightly judged his heart and thus his motives and forbade it.

    1 John 5:14-15 (KJV) "And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him."

    And, HOW do we know His will? By receiving His Spirit.

    1 Cor. 2:11 tells us that only the Spirit of God knows the will of God.

    1 Co. 2:12 "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us."

    And, WHAT has He given us? Besides the obvious temporal things and blessings, He has given us eternal life! Praise God!

    Focusing on this life (and its haves and have nots, and blessings and curses) will cause one to focus on the world and SELF, a clear distraction from focus on Jesus and the Love He so freely gives.

    Re-read Luke 4:1-12. Consider the temptations Jesus suffered...He had every RIGHT to ask the Lord God for bread (HE was hungry after 40 days without food - I'd say that was a definite need.) but His focus was on God's Kingdom. He had every right to accept the devil's authority given him by God over this world, (perhaps the Son of Man had given this some thought: who would want the immediate gratification without the suffering on the Cross?) but Jesus refused to be caught in the trap, re-focusing again on the Lord God and Jesus' desire to serve Him only and His plan of redemption (not his desires or needs). He had every right to remove Himself from the situation (Bring an end to this temptation already! Perhaps He could be brought off of the mountain and out of the temptations of the devil...) and call upon the mighty angels in heaven - BUT INSTEAD in Luke 4:12 Jesus answered [the devil], "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

    Putting Him in a box of "I will do this, so You must do that" is dangerous ground to stand on and I won't be apart of it.

    The Spirit of the Living God will reveal to your heart the truths about these matters (and many others) as He desires. I just wanted you to know that I do not subscribe to the "vending machine god" mentality no matter what verses you pull out of the Bible, because the Bible as a whole does not support this line of thinking.

    Much love in Christ Jesus. May God bless you on your endeavors for His Truth!
    KingJ likes this.
  15. I take the responsibility to seek Jesus as to where I missed/am missing it. Our daughter had a blinded eye for the old sharp stick in the eye trick. Her eye hurt so much she could not open either one. We prayed and not much changed so we fasted and sought Jesus as a family. He showed us exactly what to do, we did it and shortly everything was fine. Most do not do these things because the devil's strongest weapon, FEAR, will not let them. They run to the arm of the flesh. Another important way to stay strong in trails is to have a faith "resume" of all the times Jesus has healed, provided and delivered trusting Him alone.
    One can build the quality of their faith by using their personal prayer tongue and by staying in the word .
  16. The only way I can answer this is: We have payed quite a high price for living a life of faith, Holiness and the crucified life before God and man, much of it being persecution from other Christians. You see if the way we live is normal Christianity then what they believe and live is not. Our testimony does not include 1/10 of what Jesus has done for us and through us. And it does not go into the persecution as a result. Living for Jesus will cost you EVERYTHING. Learning Bible faith is a lot like navy seal training. Some do pretty well until they are thrown into the deep end with hands and feet tied. We have been to Hebrews 11:19 with each of our 7 children and each other. You have no idea what that is like, but Jesus was ALWAYS faithful. Most it seems quit at that point if not before. Like seal training there is no stigma or penalty that I am aware of. If you quit however you will miss out on a lot. You probably have no idea about being lied about in the local paper in letters to the editor and then when the editor would not print anymore in paid adds, nails in the driveway, harassing phone calls, mocked and lied about by teens at my teaching job (they are experts), several attempts to fire me and more. I will say that this was LIGHT persecution but I still lost 10 pounds. I would not change a thing and I would do it all again if necessary. Luke 14:25-33 is a good place to start to understand the crucified life.
    We DO Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8. When I got born from above I changed. When I was told we could live this way and do these things I sought Jesus to do and live it, not argue and fuss about it.
  17. Hi Lesjude,

    I am trying to make sense of this thread so please bear with me. I agree with you that it does require faith to get prayers answered but I disagree with you that all prayers will be answered. We cannot by any means twist the arm of God and change His will. Jesus when He was in the garden prayed for God to let the cup of sufferring pass from Him but Jesus said let Your will be done. To have strong faith one needs to submit completely to the will of God. "Seek first the kingdom of God". David said that God will grant us the desires of our hearts if we diligently seek Him. If we diligently seek Him our desires will change from wordly desires to kingdom oriented desires and so our prayers will always be in line with God's will.

    I have too prayed for people (children) to be healed and some have been healed while others have died. We cannot then say we did not have enough faith or that the parents have done something wrong. If it is God's will that a child dies then it is His will. Our days are ordained by God. Often through the grief of losing a child or a loved one people eventually come closer to God - not always but it does happen. I have stopped questioning why some are healed and others not but have got peace that God is completely in control.

    There are a few cults out there that refuse their followers to go to doctors or to seek medical help when they are sick. They put a burden of guilt on their followers saying that they do not have faith that is why they get sick etc. This is wrong theology. The reason we get sick is as a result of the original sin - sin brought sickness and death into the world and it will stay with us until Jesus makes all things complete. Nowhere in scriptures does it state that doctors are forbidden. In fact Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts was a doctor.

    I know of many Christian doctors who testify that God uses them to heal the sick through science.

    God does answer our prayers, not always the way we like, but always according to His will and for our benefit, even if that benefit is a trial through which we grow. I have been through trials, ones I do not wish on my worst enemy. During those times I doubted that God heard my cries for help, but looking back I can see exactly where God was active during those times. He did not answer some of my prayers but He actually did stuff for me that I never even thought about or requested.
    KingJ likes this.
  18. I am not saying there will not be trials. However the Bible promises healing and deliverance except in the case of martyrdom. Please give scripture for anything else.
  19. Excellant comment my friend!
  20. Most .....MOST people would pray and then take their child to the hospital for treatment................
    at least I would.

    That is not FEAR nor a lack of faith but instead good common sense!!!

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