Hard to say we're "wrong" when it's happening right in front of our eyes.
The Mark of The Beast pt1
- Thread starter Man-ofGod
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Thank you brother! Although, my goal is not to prove futurism wrong as much as it is to rightly interpret prophecy, past, present, and future events. If we have the wrong lenses, we open ourselves to be deceived.
--MoG
I here you, and I agree it's hard when it seems it is all taking place before our eyes. But if one cares to dig even deeper into Israel, the middle east, the one world government, you will see more sinister movements happening behind the scenes. If it wasn't for prophecy, I would never even know about them because I would not understand the context.
For we walk by faith, not by sight - 2 cor 5:7
"Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe.." John 13:19
--MoG
Amen!
Agreed!
God bless you my brother but you did a lot of work to MAKE the "Preterist" view of Scriptures fit. You did a lot of posting and I am not going to respond to all of your points. I will be glad to talk with you if you would like to narrow it down to one at a time.Hi Abidcate
You said a lot there and it is an interesting read for sure! I know you did your homework, but in my most humble opinion your presumptions have lead you to the wrong conclusions unfortunately. There is also a lot I wanted to say but I decided to hone in on one inference. It reads:
The inference is, "in order for sacrifices to cease, there must be a temple and this is yet to happen."This is where the idea of the 7 years of tribulation and the rebuilding of the temple by man fall apart." Let's consider the verses that discusses these things.
Dan 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
How many weeks are set apart?
"Seventy weeks are determined (actual translation is cut off)"
Upon who?
"upon thy people and upon thy holy city"
What was to be done by the end of the 70 weeks?
"finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
As you know, there are 7 days in a week, so 70 weeks equals 490 days, a day for a year equals 490 years.
The following verses divide the 70 weeks, and tells us what happens with in the divisions. (note: Note that it does not divide the time continuum, it just simply provides more details concerning what happens within the 70 week continuum. "
"25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."
What are we bidden to do?
"Know therefore and understand"
What are we to know and understand?
"that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"
7 weeks plus threescore (60 weeks) plus two weeks = 69 weeks. Using the day for a year principle, we get 69 x 7 (7 days in a week) which equals 483 days or years. This prophecy not only gives us the length of time, but tells us when it begins. We will touch on that later.
This leaves us with 1 prophetic week. Let's continue in our dissection.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolation are determined.
When is the Messiah (Jesus) cut off?
"after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off" (62 weeks). 69 weeks is the beginning of Jesus ministry; therefore, we know that 62 weeks must end at the 69 weeks. From there, we must deduct 62 from 69 and we are left with 7 weeks. 7 weeks x 7 = 49 days/years, which leaves us with the time it took from the decree to the final consummation and restoration of the temple and its walls. To recap, we have 7 weeks (Jerusalem rebuilt). After this we count 62 weeks which leads us to Jesus's ministry. After this he is cut off. However, note, that it does not say he is cut off immediately, but after the 62 weeks (this is important).
For who is he cut off for?
"but not for himself"
(Jesus died for us (John 3:16))
What happens after the Messiah is cut off?
"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
( The prince is ultimately Satan and his followers (John 16:11) Note, no time is given for when this destruction will happen. We know it is after the Messiah was cut off. History tells us that the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. as predicted by the Jesus in Matt 24.
Before we go further, let's establish some dates. The 70 week prophecy begins when the decree goes fourth When did this take place? I will go straight to your book
457 BC is where this whole prophecy finds is origins. When we add 69 weeks, we get 27 A.D., the beginning of Jesus ministry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Jesus).
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This is where futurist get in trouble. They take this last week, thereby dividing the time continuum when there is no scriptural authority to do so, and apply it to some random date at the end of time. This is based on the faulty idea that the Messiah is IMMEDIATELY cut off after 69 week comes to pass (sometime in 27 A.D.). What do you do with the last week if the Messiah is already cutoff? But when we leave the week where it belongs, in the continuum of 70 weeks, then we learn a beautiful truth. Let's look at it.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Here we come to the ONLY verse that discusses the EXACT time of Christ crucifixion. Let's question the text.
What does He (Messiah/Jesus) confirm with many?
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many"
How long is this process?
"for one week:"
What happens in the midst of the week?
"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"
What does he make desolate?
and for the overspreading of abominations
How long does it remain desolate?
even until the consummation
In the time of the consummation, what will be "poured" on the desolate?
And that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Here we have 1 week, or 7 prophetic days, or 7 years. It say's in the midst of the week, He will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. If we divide 7 years in half, we have 3 1/2 years, the length of Jesus ministry (http://www.gotquestions.org/length-Jesus-ministry.html). We therefore, arrive at the exact time when Jesus died on the cross (31 AD). As a result, "He confirms the covenant with many" There is only one covenant, one gospel, whereby ANYONE can be saved, and that is found at the cross.
At the end of the 7 years we arrive at another milestone, the stoning of Stephen. Here, he sees Jesus in vision in his rightful position in the heavenly sanctuary, the rejection of the Gospel by Jewish leaders, and also the transition to spread the Gospel to the gentiles commences. This is shortly followed by the conversion of Saul/Paul. The stoning of Stephen concludes the 70 week prophecy.
Blessings,
--MoG
The preterists are wrong for sure.
Both preterists and futurists are wrong
Absolutely! If I had to comment on it, I would say that of all the views out there, the Preterist's view is the worst of all of them. But that is just my opinion.
Please read comment #33.
That's what happens when people slap labels on the word of God instead of reading the word of God.
I hold to the biblical historical view. The 70 weeks of Daniel was fulfilled already. Only the heretical futurist view puts a gap in between the 69th and 70th week
It is OK that you disagree with me my brother. I still love you even though you are wrong (lol).
Just so that all understand......... Aacording to Preterism- No signs today point forward to Christ's return Jesus “came” in 70 AD All of Matthew 24 is fulfilled, both partial and full Preterism agree on this. May I say to you that If you think on the implications of believing the “prophecies” as past events, it will change everything you have ever learned from the Bible.
Where did such a misguided thought come from????
The view that 70 AD was the fulfillment some point to its development in the 16th century. This theory is said to be invented in the early 1500’s by a Jesuit named Alcasar to counter the Reformers' claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the “great whore... mystery Babylon” sitting on the beast in Revelation 17. Alcazar wrote a large commentary, “Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse,” which suggested the entire book of Revelation is pagan Rome and the first six centuries of the Church's existence.
He promoted that conditions will gradually improve over time, evolving into a world that has become “Christianized”, and ready for the second coming of Christ. All of the prophecies in Revelation (except for Rev 20:4-22:21) were fulfilled at A.D.70., and that Christ returned in A.D.70 in the person of the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem and dispersed Israel, just as Preterists believe today.
Do you think that it is acceptable to speak to people in the way you just did??? Threaten is the least thing Abdicate should do.
We are Christians here and YOU should speak to everyone here in a civil and Christian manner or do not speak at all.
That is my 2 cents worth on this.
Your rt about preterists and is why I think it's heretical. The 70 weeks of Daniel have come to pass is all I said. And I hold to the historical view. Both preterists and futurist are Jesuit (popery) teachings, and that I know.. So not sure why u think I'm a preterist
'The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
For the day of the LORD of hosts
shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty,
and upon every one that is lifted up;
and he shall be brought low:'
(Isaiah 2:11-12)
Hello there,
The Opening Post questions the mark of the beast, which is part of the prophecy of the book of Revelation.
The events of that book take place in, 'The Day of the Lord', which is yet future (Revelation 1:10):-
'And he (the second beast) causeth all,
both small and great,
rich and poor,
free and bond,
to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell,
save he that had the mark,
or the name of the beast,
or the number of his name.'
(Rev 13:16,17)
'And the third angel followed them,
saying with a loud voice,
If any man worship the beast and his image,
and receive his mark
in his forehead,
or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,
and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night,
who worship the beast and his image,
and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.'
(Rev 14:9-11)
'And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:
and them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
and over his image,
and over his mark,
and over the number of his name,
stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.'
(Rev 15:2)
'And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore
upon the men which had the mark of the beast,
and upon them which worshipped his image.'
(Rev 16:2)
'And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.'
(Rev 19:20)
'And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.'
(Rev 20:4)
In Christ Jesus
Chris
and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
For the day of the LORD of hosts
shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty,
and upon every one that is lifted up;
and he shall be brought low:'
(Isaiah 2:11-12)
Hello there,
The Opening Post questions the mark of the beast, which is part of the prophecy of the book of Revelation.
The events of that book take place in, 'The Day of the Lord', which is yet future (Revelation 1:10):-
'And he (the second beast) causeth all,
both small and great,
rich and poor,
free and bond,
to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell,
save he that had the mark,
or the name of the beast,
or the number of his name.'
(Rev 13:16,17)
'And the third angel followed them,
saying with a loud voice,
If any man worship the beast and his image,
and receive his mark
in his forehead,
or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,
and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night,
who worship the beast and his image,
and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.'
(Rev 14:9-11)
'And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:
and them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
and over his image,
and over his mark,
and over the number of his name,
stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.'
(Rev 15:2)
'And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth;
and there fell a noisome and grievous sore
upon the men which had the mark of the beast,
and upon them which worshipped his image.'
(Rev 16:2)
'And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.'
(Rev 19:20)
'And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.'
(Rev 20:4)
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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I have to fix my spelling, its driving me crazy
I meant to say, "I HEAR you." OK, I am done. LOL
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