The lost art of biblical argument.

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by geralduk, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. AMEN!
  2. Of what good is it .If I simply state the truth ? If I do not seek to open the eyes of any to see it?
    Are we not led by Him into all truth? How then can I do less than lay out the way as I was so led?

    I wonder if you say the same about the letters of Paul? Not that equate mien with his . But he gave long arguments also and did he not say "Be followers of me as I am also of Christ?

    in Christ
  3. How do you know if I have as you put it "great things to say" if you do not read it? How then can you ascertain they in your words are 'great' ? at what point did you stop If then you saw 'great things' why not do a better job than I in the matter ? and be "more precise"

    in Christ
  4. We are not in a setting like Paul, or a church building or listening to one speak for hours, we are conversing. When you stray from one rabbit hole to another, people lose track of what it is you're actually trying to say, and the topic gets strayed from the op. I'm just trying to help.

    Ecclesiastes 5:7 (KJV)
    For in the multitude of dreams and many words [there are] also [divers] vanities: but fear thou God. ​
    Major likes this.
  5. Seems you can't take a compliment brother. My words indicate I read what you wrote. Please remember rule 3 and be civil.
    Major likes this.
  6. @geralduk:

    Sure, pray for revival, but because you love the Body of Christ and don't despise her, be a source from which revival can come.

    Basically what you are doing consistently is judging local churches who are less than perfect. Do you harangue a child for being immature? Do you express scorn to one who has contracted cancer?

    Love the Body. Hate sin. Bring revival to where you are. But please cease this constant misplaced judgment of the Body of Christ. Jesus sees her. Jesus loves her. Jesus is with her and will never forsake her. Soon He is coming for her...His spotless, unsoiled Bride, who adores Him and has been doing His will in the world and looking for Him eagerly.
    Major likes this.
  7. By your continued use of overwhelming words !?
    If I spoke them it would take perhaps 10 mins to say them all . How is that overwhelming ?
    I know a man of God who began preaching on Hebrews 1:1 and got as far as "GOD"< and spoke for nearly 2 hours.
    on "GOD"
    and a wonderful message it was too.
    That I often draw on.

    What people (you?) want is a quick and easy answer or statement that you ;it is thought, will then know 'what I am trying to say'
    The Word of God does not 'work' that way . For one thing it is a seed said Jesus .
    For another by the Words of the Lord he said "when the Spirit of truth shall come he will LEAD us into all truth ......."
    That is as the good shepherd of our souls . No man arrives at or comes to the knowledge of the truth with a flash, bang wallop !
    and all those false prophets and apsostles and hirelings who teach otherwise are liars.
    It takes an oak tree 70 years to produce its first acorn.
    God prepared John the baptist 30 years for a 6 months ministry .
    God prepared the Lord Himself 33 and 6 months for a three year ministry .
    God took 80 years to prepare Moses. For he who was once a somebody had to learn to be a no body before God could make him a somebody in the eyes of God.
    How long I wonder did it take God to "prepare the fish" that swallowed up Jonah?
    God is not in the business of instant coffee or instant saints. He is building a people who will live in rightoeusness and with Him for eternity . He is building a church that the very gates of hell will not be able to withstand .
    He is building people who may well have to face the fires of an old persecution and all these hirelings who say otherwise not only are liars but when the wolves come they will flee and the sheep will be scattered,But they should take not the scriptures say the wolves will catch THEM,
    My posts are challenging .,I have no doubt of that .
    Tedious? well let them be for others and the many who do not write bur read and let them make their own judgment as they should.
    For what man with a friend desiring to cross the busy road ,and their friend says "lest go its safe to go " will not first check to see if their friend is right and speaks the truth ?
    and which driver with wife or husband next to them desirign to join the main road from a side road and their passenger says "right were free to go" , does not first check to see if they are right and speak the truth ? But will go out on their say so without first checking.
    So then God demands we all make righteous judgement and never blindly follow any man.

    Thus we are led to arrive at or come to a knowledge of the truth .
    For if we start with the truth and with each step speak the truth then we will or can arrive at the truth .
    I fear you think that if we start at the truth then that is all there is too it .
    Even as many thing that to be BORNagain is the be all and end all to it as well.
    Paul thought otherwise . I agree with him.

    in Christ
  8. I was ;the written word might indicate other wise .
    What i said was if you saw great things in what I said and thought it could be more precise . Do then a better job than I and say it better ?
    Then all would profit me included.

    in Christ
  9. The issue is while you're writing long responses, we've moved onto other subjects and it become tiresome to read rambling paragraphs. This isn't instant messaging so people get bored waiting and move on. This isn't a blog where one subject is read with a flowing message to ponder. A forum is somewhere in between. I'm just trying to help because I see a lot of strife in conversations you're involved with and part of it is because of the length of your responses. Again, I am only trying to help.
    Major likes this.
  10. Ok, here are some examples of words NOT needed:

    This whole thing could have ended right there...



    this makes no sense in this topic...

    These types of comments are demeaning and not helpful in your quest.

    I hope these examples help.
  11. #111 Complete, Feb 6, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
    Hello @geralduk

    Your zeal is not in doubt, your sincerity, or your motivation, nor the love for God and His Church which fills your heart. Forgive me for giving you the impression that this was not the case.

    You are dearly loved of God, and precious in His sight. May His perfect will be done both in and through not only yourself, but also in and through we who share this forum space with you.

    We each one have His written Word to hand, to read and study for ourselves: that we may grow in grace and truth and in the knowledge of Him. That is an individual responsibility, not a corporate one: for we have each, in Christ, received a new nature, through which the Holy Spirit works to conform us to the image of His Son.

    We can only pray that as each one fellowships with the Father, and the Son, through the Spirit, that the fellowship with each other will be both in Spirit and in Truth, and that God's light may shine outward to the world: that His will be fully done; to the praise and glory of His Name.

    In Christ Jesus
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  12. I refer you to comment #100.
  13. The Church of Jesus Christ is not friends with the world. Some churches are, but not the Church.
    Major and Complete say Amen and like this.
  14. The world : Definition.

    Society organised outside the will of God.

    If the world is in the church it is because it is organised outside the will of God .
    "Ye have by your traditions have made the Word of God of none effect "
    That we have such a blind adherence to the idea that if you know Greek and Hebrew you understand the Word of God which is a growing and prevailing and thus ruling idea in the minds of many of Gods people is the world .
    For Saul of Tarsus knew them both and had the original texts more than any .But still did not understand the scriptures. So why anybody should boast in their perceived "better understanding" I have no idea for he had by that more than anybody.
    Great if you do or can .But lean not upon your understanding of Greek and Hebrew but trust in the Lord who leads us into all truth .

    In Christ
  15. The understanding we have is from the work of the precious Holy Spirit. Heed His voice and you will know and understand the word.
    Major and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  16. Many words are lost in translation. Especially words buried in theology. I tell people, get a dictionary and learn what those words really mean, not what the church says they mean. Faith is a great example. When someone says "Have faith" the implication is blind trust. But that's not what faith means in the Greek nor in the Hebrew.
    Euphemia, Major and Complete says Amen and like this.
  17. What I love about God is that he is neither Greek or Jew ,Chinese or Thai .
    That not only did he inspire men what to write in Greek He also inspired men what to write in Hebrew.
    he then can very easily give men the understanding of His Word enough to translate accurately into any language He sees fit.
    He has however chosen English as the primary language of His Holy Word.
    This translation is about 400 years old and has been tried tested and proved in the fires of great adversity and persecution. God has manifestly blessed it in indisuptable revivals of God .

    Some claim that they have a 'better understanding' yet consistantly mistranslate of even the simplest words. and passages.
    Three times in these forums words of simple English and meaning have been denied on the 'evidence' of the Greek or Hebrew.
    But in each case were and still are unwilling to face the fact that their and others 'interpretations are wrong simply because while the original langauge has more than one way to translate it. They and others insist there was only one .
    Then having proved they are mistaken and those who have translated various versions of the Bible also mistaken.
    despite the testimony of two witnesses and really there is another who is not visible . They hold to their learning which in fact is a grave lack. and add confusion to their confusion and in others if believed in doing so .

    I hold and will not relent of the matter that God is bigger than us all and HIS understanding of ANY langauge is perfect .
    I also hold and will not relent of it that the Spirit of truth will not only lead us into all truth but will also by Him "show us the spirit of error" Whether it be in English, Greek , Hebrew or Chinese.
    and every child of God who is in submission to the Holy Spirit and is led by Him will know when the truth is spoken or not because the Holy Spirit will bare witness with their spirit the truth of it or NAY .
    I have no problem with any sincere child of God not grasping some truth first time around .Or not understanding it at all either due to maturity or some other lack , But whether a person is young in the faith or older in the faith the same Spirit will bear witness to the truth as it is in Christ .
    and they will not or should not oppose it . For they know it si the truth but needs must then get the understanding of it .
    If it si otherwise . Then the person is "yet carnal " a "babe in Christ" who needs once again to given the milk of the Word.
    For the carnal cannot receive the things of God . Nor take strong meat .
    Indeed to be carnally minded is to be at emnity with God" .
    So I utterly reject the idea that we have not nor can have an accurate translation of the Holy Bible .

    I have to face the fact that carnal men at best and worldly men at best have presumed to translate the Bible and have done so accordign to their will and their understanding and have produced as corrupt versions as they are themselves.
    and then have justified themselves of their versions as making it impossible to accurately translate the scriptures.
    Well they are their own witnessess .Yet they still boast in their 'better understanding'

    It is the Spirit of God that knows the mind of God and if any man wants to learn what any word in the Bible means then use the Bible and see what it means by it .Not go to the world .
    Words are expressions of thought .
    and it is the Spirit of God that knoweth the things of God not man .
    and if man would know them he must needs be in submission to the Spirit of God .
    and if he is then as Jesus promised "HE will lead us into all truth ..............."

    in Christ
  18. We need to live up to 2 Timothy 2:15
    Study and do your best to present yourself to God approved, a workman [tested by trial] who has no reason to be ashamed, accurately handling and skillfully teaching the word of truth.
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  19. Amen! God gave us His word in Greek and Hebrew, not English or Spanish or French or Chinese. God's word is so powerful that it can withstand any translations by sinful men. Even if we had them originally in our own native tongue, it still takes God to interpret what He wrote so man cannot be haughty about it. I praise God that He's given me the tools to do my own homework and read what He originally wrote. I don't even limit myself to the 66 "chosen" books men have selected. God bless you Gerald. I'm glad you're content in your beliefs.
    Euphemia and Major say Amen and like this.
  20. You misunderstand me I think.
    God can give both the wisdom and the understanding to a man to accurately translate the Word of God into any langauge he deems fit.
    I can by the Spirit of God understand the scriptures in English as a Greek or a Jew can understand them by the same Spirit .
    That Saul of Tarsus had Hebrew as his mother tounge and knew Greek as well did not save him from his grave error and lack of understanding of the scriptures . He so did not understand the scriptures he persecuted the church and agreed with Stpephens stoning as Gods will.
    The Pharasees Saducees and the Drs of the law were as faultless (?) in Hebrew as he was yet as Jesus said of many of them. "Ye do boast in the scriptures but know not Him of whom they speak of"
    That people claiming to understand Greek both misunderstood the scriptures and asserted I did not understand them because I knew not the scriptures were then by another proved to have not understood the Greek. Still hold to their error shows how foolish we can be when we lean upon our own understanding (f Greek and Hebrew say) than trust in Him who leads us into all truth .
    I am therefore content in HIM rather than my beliefs .For a man can believe an error and be content in it .
    My trust is in the Lord to lead me into all truth as also that "I may know the spirit of error" Whether speaking Greek ,Hebrew ,English or Chinese . as much as recognise by Him the truth when I hear it or see it.
    For it is by His grace and without Him we can do nothing.
    Do I understand all the scriptures? No.

    Some took 20 years some 10 years and some 6 months some I 'see' straight away . But I have not found my Bible wanting . It is an accurate translation into English. Though many now despise and reject it to their error .
    It is a weapon , a sword that has never failed me. It is always right and when I have not believed it .It is I who is always wrong . So people will need to get used to the idea if I reject their 'translation ' when it contradicts my English one . For I have that it is always their translation that is wrong rather than my English.
    So I give thanks to 'Moose ' Not because he so much proved me right , but because he was willing to be both impartial and "honourable" to have looked up the scriptures in Greek to see"if these things be true or not "and then to publish them here his findings .
    I do thank God also that the conviction in my own spirit that while not knowing Greek knew that my English translation was right and others mistaken in this matter confirms what the scriptures say to the glory of God . That we are NOT to lean upon our own understanding (whether in Greek ,Hebrew English or Chinese) but to trust in the Lord to lead us into all truth .
    "My ways are not your ways says the Lord and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts "
    Words are but expressions of thought . In that regard then the Holy Word of God must and does have a higher level of expression of thought than our own .Its logic and reasoning then is also not of man but of God .
    Yet its logic is such that it is not illogical but can be followed and its reasoning is not as such that it is unreasonable and cannot be accepted. But it does mean as the Word of God says .That "the Spirit of God knoweth the things of God" and in another place "knoweth the mind of God" Then the thoughts that were behind the words .
    if then we are to truly understand the scriptures it is and must only be by HIM who inspired men to write it and gave both the wisdom and the ability of some to accurately translate it .
    For in as much it was vital to have the Holy Spirit to inspire men so to write the scriptures." For ALL scripture was inspired by God ......." Which is different from 'God breathed' which is the new buzz word . so by the same measure He is needed to understand what is written.
    I am therefore content for" I know in whom I have believed " and He has been faithful to His Word to me long before I knew Him. and more so since I have . But not really ; its simply because I am more aware of it now that I know Him and can recognise His Word in action both in my life and in the life of others .Be they saved ; children of God or not.
    A chair has four legs and it is stable because it si four square .
    and our faith is built on the foundation of the what is called the four Gospels but in truth there is only one Gospel . Of Mathew Luke and John.
    The foundations then of the Apostles but also of the Prophets which is the Old testament . Jesus being the corner stone .
    If a building is built on a foursquare foundation it is as solid as a rock immovable .
    Or you can or as the scriptures have it as another thing "as a tree planted by the rivers of living water "
    I by the grace of God have been grafted into a 'family' tree whos roots are in God the Creator of all things even Him who si from the beginning . I do not deserve it I have never warranted such favour , But nevertheless I am what I am by the grace of God .
    A tree may indeed sway somewhat in the wind .But it is not going anywhere .
    So too is any child of God ;true BORN of the water which si the Word of God and the Spirit . I was not 'saved' by the Greek or indeed by the Hebrew . But I was saved by God who in great mercy and love led me to understand His love for me even me.
    I have since learned in a greater measure the greatness of that love even to or in the same measure how great is the Salvation God has so wrought as also in me .
    But I was saved or came to understand both of that love and that salvation in English .
    As any Greek Jew or Chinese can also in their own tounge.
    I do not say nor ever have ;dont learn Hebrew or Greek or English or Chinese . But dont lean so much upon your understanding of them that you do not trust the Lord who leads us into all truth .
    Some have declared that you cannot accurately translate the scriptures . well the same have been proved that they cant /dont understand the original language either . So not only do they not know the Lord as much as they think they do they are mistaken also about how you can translate and understand the scriptures .
    I hold to the 66 books also . and for another reason that there is enough there to satisfy any man and who have not yet understood it all yet ;to think of adding more to them of the most dubious roots.

    In Christ

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