The lost art of biblical argument.

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by geralduk, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. #81 geralduk, Jan 30, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
    I once had a number of conversations with a moslem and after one of these he out of the blue said "only the Koran in arabic is the word of god"
    Surprised I replied "does that mean you have been lying to me then?" For he had been speakign to me in English what the Koran says . Shocked he said "no"!
    Then pointing to the book in his hand on which on one side of the open book was the Koran in arabic and on the other its translation of the page in English.
    I then said" is that book lying then?" He said" no!" But I said "we have been speaking in English and that book has the arabic translated into english Yet on the one hand you say you have not been lying ,yet with the other you say only the Koran in Arabic is the true word of god"
    Is God then an arab? NO !he replied. Is he then English? He replied no also . Then I mentioned was he chinese french german etc etc He could say nothing else but no God is none of them.
    Then I pointed out that all the languages including arabic are but the language of MEN .
    God not being a man must have then as it were His own language .
    Is it not written that God humbles himself to speak to men? For it must be so.
    What language did God speak when he said "let there be light"?
    It is written down in Hebrew .
    But God is not a jew either .
    "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God "
    What was the language of Adam? and indeed Noah and up to the time of the tower of Babel was not there but one language ?
    But after many?
    What are words?
    If not expressions of thought .
    So that each language expresses the same thought but in a different way .
    Some better than others perhaps . some have 17(?) names for snow .Because they live among the snow and have much more experience of snow . I wonder how many words for snow an Arab has who lives in the desert?
    be that as it may . God says "my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts"
    His Word then must be of a different order and logic and reason above ours.
    For Words are expressions of thought .
    Now if a mans words cannot be heard or understood unless he gives his breath or life to his words. How much the less is God heard or understood unless His Spirit brings alive His Word?
    What is in Gods mind and heart remains the same it does not change nor has .The message even from the beginning then has not changed either . Though it has beyond all reasonable doubt unfolded line upon line precept upon precept .
    "What knoweth the things of man save the spirit that is in man ? Likewise then what knoweth the things of God save the Spirit of God ?"
    It matters not what the Word of God is translated into;what matters is that it is translated accurately so that the message is conveyed as it was first received.
    I can think of at least 5 reasons why we can have as many false versions of the Bible.
    1) The men translating it hate God .
    2) The men translating it hate man.
    3) Pride .
    4) While men THINK they have understood it they do not and will not seek God about the matter .
    5) There is money to be had if people will believe of some better understanding to entice them.
    6) Religion is the most powerful thing in the world .For men will die for their religion. Control the source and you can control men . Change the message so that men are not made free and reconciled to God , but are bound to the Nicolaitens .
    7) Men are as much deceived as they are deceiving.
    8) Men subject the scriptures to their own reasoning and empty and vain philosophy and 'wisdom' of the world and translate accordingly .

    But God has not changed and in the last days things will be of such a deceitful nature that "if it was possible even the very elect would be deceived" THAT sort and nature of deception is beyond the wit and mind of men to discern . But men will need the Holy Spirit not only abiding in them but in the manner of the first and Apostolic church age at the very least .
    and be leading every child of God so willing to be led and in such a manner .
    Where like the Lord they are "led" and "driven" all at the same time and "needs must go " where ever he so leads them.
    and y HIM alone we will know "the spirit of error"
    Many boast today in their" better understanding " Yet faith comes by understanding the Word of God . We have versions of the Bible that also "boast of their better understanding" in the preface. But all but two go wrong in translation from the very first verse. Nor is there any great faith among those who claim to understand these versions . Nor is the church more Holy despite so many versions and helps and concordants and books and commentaries and greater ability to learn Greek and Hebrew ,more seminars and theological colleges and all the rest which makes a great mountain of such things .
    Yet there is no revival nor is there any Holiness nor any great move of God and we are in the UK as if in Gidions time with almost the same circumstances .
    We have the Assyrians who in times past were the scourge of Israel for their hypocracy and worship ofr idols who have now become also as it is written the scourge of the gentiles and more.
    and we sow and another reaps we labour for nought and our sons are slaughtered in the streets and our daughters prostitute themselves . Corruption in government of the most dispicable kind and a parliament that has made equal in law what is not equal in fact and therefore to all intents and purposes made a lie equal to the truth in law .
    Yet the church boasts in a better understanding .............................................
    and celebrates its good fortune and 'prosperity'(?) and we thank God that we are not like them (?)
    Something is wrong ;very wrong.
    There is a great famine in the land for the living Word of God .
    The truth is trampled under foot on the one hand and on the other "is out of joint"
    The whole body is sick .
    Yet the church has better understanding .(?)
    Understanding of what? May I ask?
    We are sifting gnats and letting the devil roam free as he wills .
    Dragging millions changed to his chariots to hell. Oh by our better understanding that no longer exists .(?)

    I would put it my brethren we understand very little .

    and it is no use saying well God does and we can all go back to sleep.

    In Christ
  2. I hope someone out there understands Gerald and what he is trying to say. I for one do not but I hate to see all the energy used to go to waste.

    The bottom line is a lot simplier and shorter. Because it is produced by well-meaning but fallible men, no Bible translation is perfect. Only the original manuscripts by the prophets, apostles, and writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Languages are not precisely parallel in meaning and that is way a knowledge of Hebrew and Greek are helpful.

    It is a well know fact that often a translator has to make a judgment call as to which would be a better word to use based on his own competence with the languages and his own background in understanding the Scriptures.

    Because the originals are unavailable, many modern translations are based on less than perfect source texts that are themselves born of translator biases. So the question is often asked, "do we have to give up all hope of understanding the true, intended meaning of Scripture? " Not at all. The key is knowing where the weaknesses and strengths lie in each version, as well as consulting as many good versions as possible when questions arise. When there is a problem, the Bible student can consult the ancient Hebrew and Greek languages through interlinears and lexicons. The diligent Bible student must sometimes rely on a variety of renditions, comparing one with another and especially with the Hebrew or Greek source word. Some study Bibles such as The Companion Bible do just that, as do interlinears and lexicons.
  3. #83 geralduk, Feb 4, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
    Well by your own words ,it cannot be said I have not tried.
    But I am surprised that your thinking is no different than a Moslems . Who also think that their Koran in Arabic is the true 'word of their 'god'
    But God is not a Greek or a Jew and the langauges of those people are of men.
    I am therefore appalled at your perceptions both of God and of scripture .
    For while without a doubt fallible men indeed carnal and unregenerated men have took it upon themselves to translate the scriptures and we have as a consequence versions of the Bible that are neither accurate translations or HOLY .
    The idea that God cannot either keep His word or give understanding to spiritual men of the Word of God in such a manner that they cannot accurately translate the scriptures into any language of men is absurd.
    if men were to go by your argument of 'fallible men' does not then make you as fallible as they are? and by your own reasoning as likely to err as they?
    Now no man is infallible .Though some foolishly claim they are . But God is infallible as also is His Word . and was it not promised by the Lord that when the Spirit of truth shall come he will lead us into all truth"?
    How is it then you presume to think that all men are the same ? carnal and at emnity with God? So much so they cannot recieve the things of God let alone translate the Word of God with any degree of accuracy and consistancy.
    In very truth despite great claims as to their "better understanding" have all but two translated the first verse of the Bible which is a comparitivly easy verse ;wrong .
    and given that Saul of Tarsus had Hebrew as his mother tounge sat under the best theologians of his day and was soaked in scripture form his youth . Did not understand the scriptures and probably took 3 years in the arabian desert to get his head sorted out and all scripture put in its right order and "rightly divided" those who boast in their knowledge of Greek and Hebrew should keep a more sober head on their shoulders on the matter . For learnign Greek or Hebrew in of and by itself will not and does not give anybody understanding of scripture as it should be understood.
    It is by the Spirit of truth do "we know the spirit of error" Not by Greek or Hebrew.
    and any translator worth his salt is perfectly capable of accurately translating the scriptures into any language without deviating or corrupting the Word of God ;IF he is not a "babe in christ" but "fully grown" and spiritually minded .
    But has no hope at all if he all he knows is Greek and Hebrew.
    and it is presumption to think otherwise and folly of the highest order to try or do take on themselves the translation of scripture .

    as to the source texts there are a number of good books on the subject obtainable from any good Bible book shop. That prove beyond all reasonable doubt show, how and by what texts the various versions of the bible have been translated from and why so many have errors and contradictions and others do not .
    For even as there are uncorrupted texts so also there are uncorrupted translations . Even as there are corrupted texts and by them corrupted translations .

    in Christ
  4. Many have a tick box theology and think because they have an intellectual 'yes' to this and that they know and understand the doctrine.
    Far from it.
    To "know" the truth is the Adam knew his wife eve" it si the experiental knowing the truth .The lively knowing of it .
    and when you know the truth the truth shall make you free.
    When men embrace the truth unreservedly the enabling to to do it comes with it .

    in Christ
  5. How would you know ...........
    "Most(?)seminaries use of mans philosophy and logic as a foundation for learning theology is a grave fault."
    "If any man goes into any theoligical seminar he needs must be fully armed with th whole armour of God as he needs it when eh goes into the world ".

    What are the names of the seminaries that you have attended so as to be able to make such a claim????????
  6. By the fruit of them.
    and by conversations with pastors and theological students.
    By the grave lack of understanding of scripture and teaching from the pulpits.
    By observation .
    The whole armour of God is not the vain philosphies of men and their warped logic.
    Nor is knowing and being taught every error under the sun.

    in Christ
  7. Fact is YOU do not know because YOU have never attended. People will tell you anything in order to make themselves look good.
    They will blame others for their own sins and ignorance.

    It is not seminaries that ruin men, it is SIN which besits us.
    Euphemia likes this.
  8. #88 geralduk, Feb 4, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
    I see confusion in the church , false doctrines accepted, False Apostles self proclaimed prophets lauded . the church in the world and the world in the church . What people tell me makes no one look good.
    My own pastor when I got saved told me that as to being BORNagain most if not all pastors agree .In all other matters there are as many opinions as there are pastors.
    I see the fruit of most of the seminars .In the churches .In forums like this one and others.
    I hear christians trying to stand for the faith against marauding and agressive moslems and struggling. Though still standing . But struggle because they do not know the Word of God as they should and have nigh on both hands tied behind their backs because they do not know how to answer a reasonable accusation /question which Bible? We have but one Koran. You have many.
    I have heard a well known international evangelist with a theological college associated with his ministry preach on healing and in all truth and before God there was little of the Word of God preached and what was could be measured on one finger.
    People confessed and testified to being healed ,But on what foundation? It was not on the Word of God .
    Yet i have heard another not so well known who preached in depth for a week every night on healing health and divine health and covered the whole range of teaching on the subject and yes people got healed and still are .
    I have had conversations with pastors who have confessed that they dare not preach what should be preached for they would lose half if not more of their congregation .I told them they should preach and lose them.
    Its quality God is lookign for not quantity .
    I have also had conversations with a number of theological students who confessed they were told ALL the opinions of men and all the prevailing theories of "the last days" But not it seems were they told the truth . Or taught it .
    Jesus said" as the Father taught me so I teach"
    I said it was the FRUIT of the seminars that tells me of what seed they are and are sowing .
    For the church is filled with pastors who know what? You cannot teach what you have not got or know . We have many professors who can talk about the sea . But do not have not and some refuse to take their shoes off and get into the water .
    They will preach the milk of the Word at best . But little if any of the strong meat .
    I know of one African missionary/ pastor in Nigeria who was sent unconverted men by churches and semina's as missionaries.
    I see my country the UK running to Egypt for help and strength and worse to Assyria Even as the children of Israel did of old.
    I see conditions here not much different than the time of Gidion.
    I do see a few people here and there holdign fast to the truth and contending for THE faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints . But that is in spite of the theological colleges not because of them.
    That pastor under whos ministry I was saved his theological semina sent out him and their students with £5 and a cart full of tracts and gospel material and told to come back with an empty cart and £5 a month later (?)
    The same man told me open air preaching was not longer needed as we now have mass evenagelism and 'great' evengelists to do the job.
    I thank God for that man he loved my soul as also his wife enough to weep for mine before God .
    Nevertheless how was it that he was as deceived as so many were and still are with the charismatic movement ? and long after I woke up to the fact of it he did too .thank God.
    The UK is up to its neck in corruption in all of public life and gross darkness covers the people . The whole body is sick from head to toe . Yet in the main the church is too busy celebrating its 'prosperity ' and good 'fortune'
    A man of God i know was offered a position of pastor to a church in NW London . He felt led to accept it . He is a faithful man of God who preached as he was so led by the Spirit of God. A clique in the church thought he went on too long and very deliberately kept lookign at their watches . He beign faithful to God and to the church kept on preaching as he was so led.
    In the end it got so bad the same clique got up while he was preaching and began to stack the chairs .
    The sadness was that the rest of the congregation did nothing about it or protested but al,lowed themselves tot be ruled by the clique rather than the Spirit of God .
    The man of God resigned .
    One person said at the resignation meeting"this is not the will of God " They were right . It was not but they did not want the will of God enough to get it .
    It is very doubtful if they will ever get another pastor after Gods own heart again. Unless there is a deep repentance of their folly. They will get perhaps a hireling and if not that clique will build nothing but they will have a building .
    By their fruits shall ye know them. I said .The church in the UK is full of hirelings , false pastors not ordained by God but by men and where did they get their 'qualifications'?

    They can speak or know perhaps (?) Greek and Hebrew , But they know not God . they have learnt to dispute and argue against the truth but know not how to recognise it when it is spoken or seen.
    For how else can so many of Gods people be taken in with the false prophets and apostles ? They have not been taught spiritual things but rather a carnal approach to scripture . they are as babes in Christ at BEST who like all little children are easily deceived.
    They have accepted and been taught that all opinions are of equal merit and that if you can debate a thing long enough you will be able to compromise the truth with a happy mind but a crushed conscience .
    ALL the denominations in the UK have in their leadership compromised the Word of God and accepting things that God calls an abomination and demand that the 'church' follows them. and sadly too many are .
    How is it then that those theological schools of each denomination are producing such vile men and women>?
    Yet you say which ones?
    Indeed in this forum and others I see the insidious introducing of false doctrines long ago proved to be so both by biblical argument and by the murderous reaction of those that then held them and still do and teach them as truth .
    How is that?
    When the church and its theological seminars boast in a "better understanding" but cannot recognise that fact .
    Who by degree have accepted a myriad of versions of the Bible who also boast in their better understanding " Yet the very Holy Bible tried tested and proved through the fires of great adversity and blood and blessed and confirmed by God is now rejected by most pulpits and in many despised also which then has followed by those they lead.

    By the fruits shall ye know them.
    ALL the seminars as all the church needs a heaven sent revival . For if we do not and they do not the wrath and the judgment of God that is hanging over this nation will fall.
    God will sort out the hirelings and the false pastors and the false professors(see Ezekial) and you know what they will kill Gods people and think they do Gods will.
    For a mans enemies will be found of his own household and all who will live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution and will also have" to suffer without the camp"
    If this all sounds very depressing it should not . For God is faithful who promised the first thing that Gidion did was get the communication lines opena dn established between him and God . Once assured of that the first thing he did was to destroy the idols in his fathers house . he was not yet as bold as he was goign to be for eh did it at night . But he started with his fathers house .THEN things began to change for the better,

    In Christ
  9. #89 Complete, Feb 5, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
    Hi there,

    We are all capable of being wrong about many things. Each one of us. It is not good to point the finger at others constantly. We need to consider the 'plank' which is potentially in our own eye.

    Paul's words to Timothy, lifted him above the strife of tongues all around him, by giving him the instruction to 'study to show' himself, 'approved unto God', 'rightly dividing' the word of Truth.

    We are redeemed! Praise God! Our dept has been paid!

    * Our joy in that knowledge is what the world needs to see.

    That we are indeed, 'approved unto God', 'accepted in the beloved', made 'complete' - in Christ.

    * I believe that - do you?

    In Christ Jesus
    chili likes this.
  10. #90 geralduk, Feb 5, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
    Hi Chris

    If it is believed that I "point the finger constantly " Then let it be in response that it is not pointed at all.
    But am I not justified not because I point any fingers .But I simply tell the truth.? Not that I am justified by speaking the truth and pointing to the obvious . The world is good at that and thinks it is justified or right in other things because they are right in anothers wrong .
    But I speak the truth not only as to the wrong and why the why of it . But also point and speak the truth as to what is right .
    If I simply said 'you' are wrong as many do to me .
    Then you are justified in your judgment. as I am of mine .
    But is not the scriptures given for correction and reproof?
    have you considered the fact that there is much wrong with the church and no one it seems points it out or indeed recognises the fact .
    "We are all capable of being wrong about many things " is beyond dispute . But does that mean we should be?
    John said as children of God we shall not sin .
    Another said "if we walk in the Spirit we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh"
    But John continued but "IF we do we have an advocate with the father .."
    The church has made the IF the main thing .But John made "we shall not sin " the emphasis .
    The church has made the wanderign in the wilderness for 40 YEARS as the NORM of a christian life .When it should be anything but a normal life .
    For it took them only 40 DAYS to reach the promised land . But we have justified our unbelief and disobedience by saying that to wander in the wilderness is the norm!

    When Paul says we are" NOT to be like them that entered not in because of unbelief "
    Unbelief in God is not just simply not believing God . it is believing the wrong message .

    you have said we must consider the plank in our own eye before we seek to take the mite out of anothers.
    have you considered that I may have done that?
    But what is often meant though is you cannot judge another . Yet Paul says they who are spiritual judge all things and are judged of none . and in another palce if we would judge ourselves we would not be judged"
    I dont object to you questioning my motives .Or indeed my perceptions and theology. You have every right to consider them.
    But tell me have you stopped and considered what i said and looked around and went to see if what I spoke was the truth ?Both in scripture and in practice?

    If you notice in all but a few of my posts I give not only biblical arguments supported by relevant scripture to correct the error but also by the same method show what is the truth .
    As I have said before I make no claim to infallibility . But I do lay out for all to see my reasoning and theology for all to see and to follow .They and any then are free to find any error in my thinking or theology .
    To the best of my knowledge I neither twsists the scriptures take them out of context or missapply them. if I have done so I would value being corrected . But not on the spurious assertions , often presented .Denials and by one verse or two without any argument either proving me wrong or the other right .
    But as you said a man can be wrong and not kn ow it .
    But at least all men can see if I am and why.
    Allow me then the same liberty ?
    and if they can so prove I will correct my thinking.
    It would be both just and right then that if i so prove they adjust theirs.
    in answer to your last point . What I say is not in condemnation but reproof . A true child of God BORN of the Spirit and the Word of God is no longer any condemnation.
    But it is not I who says to the church "repent" but listen to what the Spirit says to the churches" Rev 2 onwards.
    But it is the church that says " I am rich increased in good s and in need of nothing" But the Lord says "Ye are poor wretched and blind .... and in need of eye salve"
    Who then should I believe?
    For all the messages to the church in scripture .The church says NAY it is not for us but for the world and the unsaved.
    I have heard the knocking on the door and have by the grace of God opened it .
    What then shall I do or say to my brethren who think they have need of nothing when they dont even know what they have? or dont have ?
    and If I sup with My Lord and my father am i then not to pass around the table that which I have received myself?
    you judge .

    in Christ
  11. NO! YOU are not justified by telling the truth as YOU see it. Truth can be elusive especially to those who will not be taught.

    YOU are giving "opinions" which can not be verified. YOU give thoughts which apply only to YOU.

    Personally I would like to see you post Scriptures to validate your posts.
  12. Once again, a person needs to make a choice as to whether they maintain a pessimistic outlook or an optimistic one. I choose to see the whole doughnut, while others contemplate only the hole.

    Our God is AWESOME and so are His Spirit-filled people! He is crazy about them! His Body is constantly being added to, and growing in strength and influence around the world, and especially is nations where the gospel has been historically rejected. Being negative about the Body of Christ is not being constructive. In fact, it kind of reminds me of the scripture about a constant dripping in contentiousness.

    Proverbs 19:13
    And the contentions of a [quarrelsome] wife are like a constant dripping [of water].
  13. #93 geralduk, Feb 5, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
    Er I "quote" the scriptures often .They are not obscure ones but should be well enough known for people to recognise them. If some one has used a different version or misquoted or misaaplied I usually then write out the full quote .

    You tell me " I am not justified by telling the truth .................." then add the proviso as 'I see it'
    That argument can be as much applied to yourself as to any body else could it not?
    But I have never asserted anything as my opinion .But have substantiated what i have said by biblical argument and the relevant scriptures to support and prove the truth of it.
    By your own words you have been unwilling often to follow the argument seemingly more willing to have a sound bite that can be easily dismissed .
    Your perception then that what I says is only the truth in my opinion is denied and I reject your perception as unjust unreasonable and not true . For reasons I have often stated to you but you wish to ignore.
    I have also as you well know disagreed with you often as to your perception as to what is true in scripture . I have also used biblcial argument and relevent scripture to prove it is so . This too you have been unwilling even to consider or follow the argument and neither reply with an answer that undermines my objection or one that upholds your assertions.
    The truth these days is not only elusive to those unwilling to be LED by the Spirit of truth , But it is also a very rare thing in deed these days in the church .In very truth there is a great famine for the Word of God.
    Despite all the versions of the Bible and the boasts of a " greater understanding"
    I make no claim to infallibility and listen to every objection and will if proved wrong correct my thinking .
    But neither your self or others have proved it either I am wrong or in the matters where I object that you are right .,
    You will then have to get used to the idea that I will continue to object to error and the misuse of scripture its dislocation misapplication its twisting and taken out of context.
    I do know the truth is not always easy to grasp as it is also not always easy to find.
    But I do know what I know and while I do know very little I believe God who said the Spirit of truth will lead you into all truth and when you know the truth the truth shall make you free.
    How then does one know if you kn wo the truth or just THINK you know it?
    Because you are set or made free.
    You have liberty in the Spirit.
    #You are more effective in the kingdom.
    The Spirit of God bears witness with your spirit the truth of it or nay . For by HIM "we know the spirit of error"
    you have more love for Gods people and the souls of men and draw near to God more readily . Your love of the Word of God the Work of God and the Will of God grows also .

    You have on one of your posts have expressed the thought that we cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible which were translated by fallible men . and thus deny we have an infallible God who inspired men to write an infallible Bible who in turn cannot then give understanding to some men that they cannot accurately translate the Bible into any language needful.
    You say or imply I cant be taught . your right .I cant be taught error.
    For I know enough of the truth to recognise it when I see it and by that error also from whatever direction it comes from.

    here then is what lies at the root of our many disagreements .
    I have a different perception of God than you do and my aproach to the scriptures is very different also .
    I am not going to change . Though I will grow in grace and in the knowledge of God .
    The foundation of my faith is the Word of God and the Spirit of God .
    I will blindly follow no man .
    and God does not demand it nor even of himself .For faith in God comes by understanding the Word of God .
    For faith is not blind but sees Him who is invisible and acts accordingly.

    in Christ
  14. "and growing in strength and influence around the world ................."
    Which does fly in the face of what the Lord said as they have hated me they will hate you .
    and "they that live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution"
    and which of the prophets have you not killed?
    The church that is growing in strength and influence in the world is a church that is conforming to the world but at the same time is losing its salt.
    The world loves its own.
    It hates the church .
    as it has hated the Jews and for the same or similar reason.

    When you are stood up against a wall (if your lucky(?) to be shot for when the salt has lost its savour it is trampled under foot by the feet of men . You may then think too late how much influence you have with the world .

    in Christ
  15. #95 Euphemia, Feb 5, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
    Nonsense. The Church of Jesus Christ is formidable against the enemy. I am a member of that Body. I know who I am in Christ and so does the rest of His followers. We are the army of God and we walk through life in our full armour daily. We exercise the authority of Christ. The enemy cowers at His name! Enlist today.
    chili, Complete and Abdicate says Amen and like this.
  16. The church is not formidable while it is friends with the world .While it seeks to have influence in it and be loved by it.

    " I pray for them , I pray not for the world,but for them which thou hast given me , for they are thine.
    and all thine are mine and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
    And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee Holy Father, keep through thine own name ,those whom thou hast given me ,that they may be one , as we are .
    While I was in the world I kept them in thy name; those that thou gavest me I have kept ,and none of them is lost ,save the son of perdition that the scriptures might be fulfilled.
    And now I come to thee, and these things I speak in the world that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
    I have given them thy word,and the world hateth them,because they are not of this world, even as I am not of this world .

    I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world ,but that thou should keep them from the evil.


    Sanctify them through the truth ,thy word is truth.

    As thou has sent me into the world ,even so have I sent them into the world................... John 17 The real Lords prayer .

    If you recall I was answering your statement that the church in your eyes :'is growing in strength and influence in the world'

    Tell me did the Lord grow in strength and influence in the world? Or was he despised and rejected by the world?
    Is it not written "the world was made by him and the world knew him not? He came unto His own and his own received him not?
    What makes you think the churches business is to be strong in the world and be growing in influence in it?
    When the Lord said we would be hated even as he was hated by the world?

    You then replied with a great hurrah that had no bearing on what I had replied to.
    Our Job is not to gain influence with the world at all but to bear witness to the power and resurection of the Lord and to preach Christ and him crucified yea and risen from the dead.

    It is not to make the church 'people friendly' or rather sinner friendly to the extent that sin is condoned yea even accepted and agreed with .
    It is not a haven for the weak . But it is where the weak are made" strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might "
    It is not a haven for sinners . But sinners made righteous.
    It is not a haven for the idol worshippers but where God alone is God .
    It is not a haven for those who are more willing to cling to their old ways than to cling to Him who is the way.
    It is not a haven for the world but it is a place where the world has no place in it .
    It is not a haven for soothsayers but for men who speak the truth .
    It is not a haven for hirelings . false prophets, self proclaimed apostles , charlatans and the unclean spirits.
    It is not a haven for doctrines of devils.nor seducing spirits.
    It is not a haven for anything that is not of God .
    It is the temple of the living God who inhabits eternity as also the humble and contrite heart .
    It is the temple where men might find the truth .
    The salt of the earth . That makes people thirsty on the one hand and smart on the other .

    The church is a prodigal church and since the reformation has been so .
    For it has clearly not yet arrived at Our Father's house .
    For we are not or have not come "to a unity of the faith"
    But instead many are seeking a unity at the expense of truth .

    "Sanctify them through the truth .Thy Word is truth "
    The Church which is Christs is not of this world even as the Lord its head was not of this world .
    You cannot COME in the name of the Lord if you do not GO to the Lord in the first place.
    For if you are not FROM the Father how then can you come in His name?

    Many a church comes in its own name and promotes itself .

    "He that speaketh of himself , seeketh his own glory;but he that seeketh his glory that sent him,the same is true,and no unrighteousness is in him" John 17 :18.

    Isiah was indeed a prophet of God and not "out of his own imagination " Yet in Isiah 6 where in the year King Hussiah died he saw the Lord high and lifted up and His train filled the temple ...."
    He confessed "woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips ........................"
    The church does not know God .It has perhaps at best "heard of him"
    For it too would wail much the same thing as Issiah .
    If you doubt that then look at John even the beloved who when he turned at the voice behind him saw the Lord whom he loved . he fell down as a man dead. Which only the Lord could revive him.
    It took a feiry peice of coal from the alter to touch his lips to make him ready for that which was to follow .
    Can you imagine how tender the lips are to be touched by a live piece of coal?

    Then a voice said who will go for us and Isiah said send me .
    I say again .the church does not know God in the main it has but "heard of Him.
    Job had but "heard of Him" but it had so transformed his life that God could point to him and say "consider my servant Job"

    Yet when at the end God began to reveal himself to Job he too confessed the truth . I have heard of thee but now mine eyes seeth thee ,"I REPENT IN DUST AND ASHES......."

    The church cannot be an effective witness IN the world (but not of it) unless each member of it has at least become as a young man in whom the Word of God dwelleth richly and who has overcome the wicked one " and onward to knowing " Him who is from the beginning "
    The church needs a revival and it will cost but if counts the cost it will not get one .
    A revival from heaven .Not one cooked up by flashing lights rock music and performing manikins who perform and "make merchandise of Gods people "
    A revival from heaven is not of man or of the world . it comes from heaven and leads men to God not to have influence in the world .
    The world does not need to be influenced it needs to repent!

    in Christ
  17. The members of the Body of Christ are known of God and precious. We have only one instruction regarding it's members, and that is to love one another. That requires that we correct, rebuke, exhort, yes, where needed: but with meekness and lowliness; seeking to build up and not to destroy.

    There are tares growing up with the wheat, yes, but they are for God the Holy Spirit to deal with, in His time and in His way.

    We are to love and encourage one another while it is yet day.

    That His Name be glorifued.
    In Christ Jesus
    Major and chili say Amen and like this.
  18. #98 geralduk, Feb 6, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
    "Open rebuke is better than secret love" Proverbs 27:5
    "Faithful are the wounds of a friend ,but the kisses of the enemy are deceitful" Proverbs 26:7

    I suppose it is easy to jump to conclusions as to the attitude and the spirit of the person writing .In particular when reproof and correction are given. and it is unusual to so well express something that a right spirit and attitude is clearly manifest in what is written.
    I have only come across it once in this forum and it was by another and with whom I often disagree with .
    I apologise then if my posts are perceived as neither encouraging or with meekness.
    That is my lack .
    Nevertheless as I endevour to take each post replied to mine in the best possible light when possible so I hope others will do with mine.
    I dont know how to be corrected or reproved can be ever 'liked' or worded in such a way as to make it 'pleasant'
    But tell me when the Lord replied to Peter "get behind me satan for ye speak not of the things of God " Was that a word of encouragement or rebuke?
    Should any error and wrong thinking be "encouraged"?
    Should scripture twisted or missaplied or out of context be also encouraged?
    Or should they be reproved?
    God is not a tyrant and simply imposes HIS will on all who disagree with him . for the truth is not because he is so BIG and ALMIGHTY no oen can gain say him or say nay .
    Nor is He or the truth democratic and it is only when we all agree or the majority of Gods people agree as to what the truth is does that make it true .
    but does not God say "let us reason together.....?
    Does that mean we can all go in every direction and reason any thing we like or are we to make righteous judgment?
    Did he not at that time he said it or another show how the children of Israel saw or perceived and reasoned things and then show how reasoned and perceived things? and then said make righteous judgment .
    Was than not the great fault of Adam and Eve ?
    For they SAW that the tree was good to eat and she reasoned thus it would make her wise .
    and is not the long awful catologue of chapters in the book of Kings and Chronicles all begin with "and they did evil in the sight of God"? Or nearly all.

    How is it they were given for our ensample but we give little thought of their errors.
    It is the world that says you are arrogant if you say you know the truth .
    Jesus said by Him who leads us into all truth we shall "know the truth"
    and that knowing is not knowing ABOUT the truth .
    It is the 'knowing' of "Adam knowing his wife Eve" and others.
    It is experientally knowing the truth . We are to drink from the source not 2/3/4/5 hand by others.
    That is not knowing the truth .
    "Gods goodness is past" finding out it is so written.
    yet the scriptures say "Oh taste and see that the Lord is good"
    God is good to all men . Thank God.
    But men do not know it .
    God sends the rain upon the just and the unjust.
    even the tares rejoice when it rains .
    I understand about what you said about the tares and true it is .
    But I am not talking to the tares .
    Tell me when the last church said "I am rich increased in goods and in need of nothing" rev 2/3

    Did the Lord encourage them in their perception of themselves and reasoning?
    or did He say "Thou art poor wretched and blind and naked and you dont even know it......."
    did he not THEN say and encourage them or "I council thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be (truly) rich and white raiment that thou may be clothed etc ..........."

    The spirit of God says TO the church "behold I stand at the door and knock" The church says nay that is not for us but for the tares and the world .
    But it is TO THE CHURCH .
    There is then a very great LACK in the church to which it has no knowledge of and even denies .
    Purely because it has taken scripture and misapplied them.
    The knockign on the door then is a call to the WHOLE church .Not to the world or the tares .But to the church .
    "The field said Jesus is the WORLD " The seed is the Word of God."
    Then the scripture pertaining to the tares and the wheat primarily is about the world we live in where the wheat and tares grow togther .
    The tares are NOT in the church and if you say they are they should not be .
    That too then shows the state of the church .
    But primarily the tares and the wheat grow in the field which is the world .
    The church is not made up of tares and wheat .
    It is made up of wheat!
    It is a lie of the devil then that the church has accepted by taking scripture and disjointing it .
    Thus the knocking on the door is on the door of the CHURCH and thus a call to the wholoe church to repent and return to historical and biblical christianity . For we must face the fact that the Lord is not coming for a church that is anything LESS than what could be called the Apostolic church or of the book of acts .
    God is light .
    and thus the closer we get to God the more he reveals us about ourselves .
    I say again . It only took then 40 DAYS to get OUT from Egypt ;BORNagain and to the promised land .
    How is it then that the church has accepted the 40 YEARS as the NORM where they were NOT more than conquerers till they crossed Jordan .
    But rather despite God not having left them or forsaken them and gave them miracles every day and twice on Saturday for 40 YEARS . They were sill out of the will of God and in disobedience !
    and wandered 'aimlessly '(?) or round in circles till they all perished in the wilderness save the two who were faithful.

    We rob ourselves and indced in a sense God also by believing the wrong thing and not the Word of God.
    I once was given a job to do of clearing a ditch by the side of a boggy field where in was a power cable that went from a radio station to the power source.
    It had initially been put on top of the hedge but the farmer had come along and cut through it when he trimmed the hedge .
    It was my job to cut down all the thorns and thistles and brambles and overgrown weeds and things that not only filled the ditch but also the inside edge of the ditch .
    It took me three days of hard work. I had a perfect tool for the job ,nevertheless my hands were scratched and pierced with thorns as I worked down the fields ditch.
    The objective was to so fix the cable on supports in the ditch and clear of any obstruction that there was a clear link between the power source and the speaker . and by the grace of God and the strength of the Almighty .I did not stop save for three breaks all day for three days ..
    What ahs this got to do with our conversation?
    As I did the work I was led to think about the church and what I was faced with was the state of the church.
    Where there was no visible and manifest link between the source of our power and ourselves save in word only .
    You say it does not need to be so?
    "God has put this power in earthen vessels so that the excelency of the power might be seen to be of God and not of ourselves".
    The church still needs to have its eyes opened to see and understand the exceddign greatness of His power that is towards us who believes even the same mighty power that raised up Jesus from the dead"
    The church has reduced the GREAT salvation of God to beign BORNagain the getting out of Egypt.
    Great though that is and was . It is NOT the end but only the beginning .
    But many have been misled to think THAT then is the exceedign greatness of his power and that only .
    But look again . Was not Paul praying for CHRISTIANS?
    That OUR eyes may be opened of our understanding that we might UNDERSTAND and take hold of and grasp what is the exceedign greatness of his power..........................
    There are so many thorns and thistles etc of false teaching missaplied scripture and the rest it has obscured this fact . For by many to be BORNagain is the be all and end all of every thing .
    But what baby in the natural is expected to stay a baby?
    How much the more then of those who are BORNagain?
    was it not to "BABES in Christ " that Paul was adressing as "yet carnal"?

    be it understood . I am AGAINST every false doctrine and the rest that misLEAD people away from God and that robs them of their crowns or what is theirs "IN Christ"
    I will then never encourage such folly.
    But rather not only show it to be wrong but also why as also show what is right and why .
    I lay my arguments out both for and against .
    For all to see .
    if they find fault with the argument then let it be so proved one way or the other .
    If they find fault with me .I find far more than they . But let them not reject the truth simply because it is I that speak it .
    and not them or one they approve of.
    But prove it in a manner that is worthy of God .yea or nay .
    Not with accusations denials and a couple of scriptures more often than not misapplied.

    Do I know all? or as some have said a know all .
    But Jesus said "ye will know the truth "
    and I know the difference between a truth and a lie and by Him the Spirit of truth "the spirit of error"
    Some will say what matters If I am against what they perceive as the truth. It would matter not if it what I oppose was the truth save against me .
    But if I speak the truth and prove it .What then do they oppose?
    Storms are coming to this land the like of which we have not seen for 400 years or more . and the people of God need to be prepared and ready to bear witness of the truth . If they dont know it as they should how will any fair?
    "Little children ye know the father and your sins are forgiven you" Praise the Lord. But little children are easily deceived if they so stay .
    "Ye young men the Word of God abides in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one " A subject not often adressed .
    "Ye fathers ye know Him who is from the beginning "
    The church does not know Him who is from the beginning for in the main it does not believe Him who "in the beginning"
    They have but heard of him.
    Jesus came primarily " that we know HIM the one true God and Jesus whom thou hast sent" john 17
    To that end then I have come and bear witness of.
    in Christ

  19. You have a lot of great things to say, (y) but they're lost in the myriad of words. (n) Please learn to be concise. :LOL:
  20. By your continued use of over whelming volume of words so as to cloak and distort your agenda you have made it clear that you are unable to accept the advice of others who have attempted to help you.

    I for one am unable to continue with conversing with you as it has become very tedious and challenging as I really do not know what it is you are trying to say.

    For that reason I say goodbye to you Gerald and pray for you!

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