The lost art of biblical argument.

geralduk said:
What I said was that his knowledge of Hebrew which was his mother tounge did not 'save' him nor give him understanding of the scriptures.
He so did not understand the scriptures he persecuted the church and was in agreement with the stoning of Stephen thinkign it was Gods will.
By that I say those who boast in knowing Greek and Hebrew and think by that alone they will understand the scriptures as they should be understood should take Saul as a warning .
For the sane is you will! lean more upon your own understanding (of Greek and Hebrew) than trust in the Lord " who is promised to lad us into all truth .

in Christ
gerald
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Gerald. I have no argument with you but your opinion on this is not correct in any way. I suspect that maybe you have an agenda behind your thinking and maybe it is because you do not have an understanding of Hebrew and Greek, I do not know.

What I do know is that IF I go to live in Spain I am going to learn the meaning of Spanish words.

If I go to live on France I am going to learn the meaning of French words.

If I go to live in Russia I am going to learn the meaning of Russian words.

If I am wanting to know the deeper meaning of certain words and or phrases which are written in a language different than I am familiar with, I am going to work to try and have an understanding of those languages. That is just plain common sense.
 
geralduk said:
I would also suggest that this 'counting''it is the same as "count yourself dead......."
A careful readign of all his letters will also show that he expounded on every thing he before boasted in and showed them in the true light .

in Christ
gerald
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That however does not mean that he rejected the Hebrew language or Greek language my brother. You re reading into the Scriptures what YOU want them to say and not understanding them as they are printed.
 
Concerning the image of God .
Man was CREATED in the image of God .
He is however BORN in the image of his father Adam.
Which is why "we MUST be BORNagain"
For the image of God was lost or marred when Adam sinned and so his offspring were by nature "sons of disobedience" and shapen in iniquity .
But Jesus was and is the "express image of the invisible God" who came to seek and to save that which was lost."
If then Christ dwells in our hearts by faith He is there to abide with us forever !
and thus we are BORN again by the Word of God and the Spirit of God and the Image of God is created with in us and is as the scriptures say RENEWED DAILY in the image of Him.

A brother is one of the same household and of the same father .Who bear the image of their father .
A nieghbour is of another household and of another father who bare the image of their father .

in Christ
gerald
 
Major said:
That however does not mean that he rejected the Hebrew language or Greek language my brother. You re reading into the Scriptures what YOU want them to say and not understanding them as they are printed.
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SIGH!
Where on earth or indeed in these forums have I ever suggested that he rejected Hebrew and Greek ? and by implication you or another should do also?
Answer that first before you go on .
What I said was that SAUL of Tarsus had Hebrew as his mother tounge .
A mans language from his mother knows and understands the langauge more than one who it is not and has to learn it as a second language .
Major said:
That however does not mean that he rejected the Hebrew language or Greek language my brother. You re reading into the Scriptures what YOU want them to say and not understanding them as they are printed.
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Major said:
Gerald. I have no argument with you but your opinion on this is not correct in any way. I suspect that maybe you have an agenda behind your thinking and maybe it is because you do not have an understanding of Hebrew and Greek, I do not know.

What I do know is that IF I go to live in Spain I am going to learn the meaning of Spanish words.

If I go to live on France I am going to learn the meaning of French words.

If I go to live in Russia I am going to learn the meaning of Russian words.

If I am wanting to know the deeper meaning of certain words and or phrases which are written in a language different than I am familiar with, I am going to work to try and have an understanding of those languages. That is just plain common sense.
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Of course I have an agenda or purpose as you also have.
My objective in this instance is to not only counter act a growing perception song God's people that if you learn Greek or Hebrew then you will understand the scriptures better than if you don't. And by implication those who don't know Greek or Hebrew don't really understand the scriptures or won't. That in turn will lead to things as they were before the Reformation where you need to be'qualified ' and indeed licensed and a proved by the religious and political authorities to be able to preach.
I have never said nor do.Don't learn Greek or Hebrew if you can. I simply point out that they alone do not guarantee at all you will or can understand the scriptures as they should be. As proved by Saul of Tarsus and others.
I freely admit I know little to be almost none existent of Greek or HEBREW.but I am not persuaded at all that you need to do so. When on the one hand God is neither a Greek or a Jew let alone an English man.and on the other generally speaking by the evidence so far of those that boast they do that they have any advantage over me who knows nothing.
I cannot or should repeat ad infinitum the same arguments just because people do not read or follow the argument but rather jump to their own conclusions as to what they think I am saying!
And I'm writing in English!

In Christian
gerald
 
geralduk said:
Of course I have an agenda or purpose as you also have.
My objective in this instance is to not only counter act a growing perception song God's people that if you learn Greek or Hebrew then you will understand the scriptures better than if you don't. And by implication those who don't know Greek or Hebrew don't really understand the scriptures or won't. That in turn will lead to things as they were before the Reformation where you need to be'qualified ' and indeed licensed and a proved by the religious and political authorities to be able to preach.
I have never said nor do.Don't learn Greek or Hebrew if you can. I simply point out that they alone do not guarantee at all you will or can understand the scriptures as they should be. As proved by Saul of Tarsus and others.
I freely admit I know little to be almost none existent of Greek or HEBREW.but I am not persuaded at all that you need to do so. When on the one hand God is neither a Greek or a Jew let alone an English man.and on the other generally speaking by the evidence so far of those that boast they do that they have any advantage over me who knows nothing.
I cannot or should repeat ad infinitum the same arguments just because people do not read or follow the argument but rather jump to their own conclusions as to what they think I am saying!
And I'm writing in English!


In Christian
gerald
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Then we are in agreement Gerald. Learning ANY language does not guarantee anything except that you can order water in a restaurant instead of sand when everyone in that restaurant speaks Spanish and you don't.

Knowing any language only gives you the ability to know what the intent was of the author and does not increase faith.
 
Major said:
Then we are in agreement Gerald. Learning ANY language does not guarantee anything except that you can order water in a restaurant instead of sand when everyone in that restaurant speaks Spanish and you don't.

Knowing any language only gives you the ability to know what the intent was of the author and does not increase faith.
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That can be known by the Spirit of God .it may not be known by the knowledge of the language .
For all the languages of which we speak are mans language .
Not only are they different from that original langauge that man first spoke .
They must also be different as it were from Gods .For God is not man.
What are words?
If not expressions of thought ?
only the Holy Spirit knows the mind of the Lord and the deep things of God .
Then as Gods message as that which" every word that comes forth out of His mouth" is an expression of his thought .
Then no matter what langauge of men it might be it still needs the Spirit of God to give the understanding as to the mind of God.
and by your own words if you need to know the language of the land and people in which you are .Then you need the Holy Spirit to understand the intent and meaning that God meant when he inspired them so to write.
It is by understanding the Word of God that increases faith .
For by understanding the Word of God .God makes himself known primarily to the student.

For we are to not only grown in grace but in the (lively) knowledge of God also.

in Christ
gerald
 
geralduk said:
That can be known by the Spirit of God .it may not be known by the knowledge of the language .
For all the languages of which we speak are mans language .
Not only are they different from that original langauge that man first spoke .
They must also be different as it were from Gods .For God is not man.
What are words?
If not expressions of thought ?
only the Holy Spirit knows the mind of the Lord and the deep things of God .
Then as Gods message as that which" every word that comes forth out of His mouth" is an expression of his thought .
Then no matter what langauge of men it might be it still needs the Spirit of God to give the understanding as to the mind of God.
and by your own words if you need to know the language of the land and people in which you are .Then you need the Holy Spirit to understand the intent and meaning that God meant when he inspired them so to write.
It is by understanding the Word of God that increases faith .
For by understanding the Word of God .God makes himself known primarily to the student.

For we are to not only grown in grace but in the (lively) knowledge of God also.

in Christ
gerald
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God bless you Gerald. I wish I had the ability to grasp what it is you are trying to say but alas, I can not so therefore I am saying so long to you!
 
The two finest examples of the Biblical argument were the letters of Paul to the Romans and to the Hebrews.
The one primarily to the gentiles and the other to the Jews.
But each a message and argument for us all.
The letter to the Hebrews starts with "God"
It does not debate or discuss God at all.
It echos Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"
It echos John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word"
In any argument no matter how logical if the premise and foundation is wrong the conclusions reached will be wrong also.
The Rock of God then is the only foundation for any sound doctrine and the proving of it.
It should be also understood that it is in submission to God and in agreement with God in the first place that we will in very truth be able to follow his argument.
"For how can two walk together unless they agree?"
For all scripture was given by inspiration of the Holy Ghost.Who knoweth the mind of God.
It is often argued that if you know Greek or Hebrew then you will understand the scriptures.This simply is not true.
If you lean more upon your own understanding of them rather than trust the Lord to lead you into all truth,then you will go astray in your thinking and wrought confusion rather than clarity.
More over if you are not so willing to let the Lord lead you in your mother tounge how much less then in another? For you have compounded one fault with another ,that of intellectual pride.
And if that does not convince then consider Saul of Tarsus who's learning and studies of the scripture in his mother tounge profited him nothing in regards to his understanding of Scripture. To the extent that he persecuted the church and was in agreement with Stephens death ,"thinking it was God's will."
So whether we follow Pauls argument in Hebrew,English or Swahili we all need to start with God and be in agreement with Him.Before we can continue.

In Christ
Gerald
 
Abdicate said:
The devil is a great arguer too. Crafty, sly, and evil.
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"I would not presume to give him any glory or credit at all .

But rather "let us reason together ..............." has God who has the whole Bible as an 'argument'

But I am not talking about arguing in the negative sense .
But more as a lawyer might argue a case or better still an appeal Judge who is charged with judging a lawyers argument as to an appeal against a conviction.
In some newspapers in the UK notably 'The Times ' or Guardian you will find appeal court rullings .Where the court and judge give an argument as whether the appeal should be upheld or rejected.
The argument is such that to a trained mind the argument is followed to its conclusion and if the argument is sound and has no fault in it .Justice is understood or seen to be done for all who can follow the argument will reach the same conclusion as the judge .If however there is fault in the 'reasoning' or argument then a further appeal can be made .

The devil does argue .But it is always faulty . based upon a false premise.
In the case of Eve he started with a slur on Gods character and then ADDED to the Word of God and so argued.
If you look at the temptations of Jesus he also argued using scripture .But look carefully and you will see he OMITS scripture.
In every case the Lord replied to his argument putting the scripture in the right context or replying with scripture to show how wrong it had been applied by the devil.

in Christ
gerald
 
And only the Holy Spirit can give the understanding to a truly willing heart. The conversation must be between God and man, not man and man. Our job is to reconcile people to God and let them sort it out. To judge anyone is to just yourself, something even Paul didn't do.
 
Abdicate said:
And only the Holy Spirit can give the understanding to a truly willing heart. The conversation must be between God and man, not man and man. Our job is to reconcile people to God and let them sort it out. To judge anyone is to just yourself, something even Paul didn't do.
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"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things ,yet he himself is judged of no man " I Cor 2:15
"It is not good to accept the person of the wicked,to overthrow the righteous in judgment" Proverbs 18:5
"Judge not according to appearance ,but judge righteous judgement" John 7;24
and there are many others .
We are not to judge "who will go up for that is to bring Christ down ,who will go down for that is to bring Christ up ,but what sayeth the scriptures..................................?"
But the Word of God" is a discerner of the thoughts and intentions of the heart "
When the Word of God is preached, taught then it always manifests the thoughts and intents of the heart. In one way or the other .
Paul said to some Christians in Corinth "Ye are yet carnal"! and to others "who has bewitched you"?
he knew full well where they were . and sought to correct what he clearly saw was wrong.
To the Ephesians he prayed that "the eyes of their understanding be opened " which clearly means that in this matter they were blind to "the exceding greatness of his power that was towards them......."
"The Word of God is a lamp unto our feet " it tells us or shows us where we are .
If we are wrong it "corrects or reproves" us and shows us where we should be .
It is the job of a pastor to examine the sheep given to him that he might present them as chaste virgins a Bride unto the n Lord and he will preach accordingly .
I am not presuming to pastor anybody here .I am simply showing the principles and here how Paul used a biblical argument using scripture relevant to the subject to uphold his argument .
Was he not led by the Holy Spirit to lead us ? So that we might come to the same conclusions as he has ? For in that eh was taught so he taught and even as he was so led ,so then he sought to lead the sheep in the same way .
How else could he say "be ye followers of me as I am also of Christ "?
Did not the Lord Himself say "that the words that i speak are not my own words but as the Father taught em so do I teach"?

If then what I speak is the truth as it is in Christ I also seek to lay down before all men what I have also been taught.
But I do not just quote scripture . But seek also to use the same method as Paul of a biblical argument so that we might all reach or arrive at the same conclusion or come to a knowledge of the truth .
All the above is an 'argument ' in the truest sense .
How else can we all arrive at "the unity of the faith" if we do not also arrive at or come to the same conclusions .?
For if faith comes not only by hearing but by understanding the Word of God then to have a unity of THE faith we needs must then all come to the same understanding of scripture.
I claim no infallibility though some foolishly do so .
What i do is lay out an argument as to what I believe what I believe and why it is true.
If my argument is faulty somewhere .Then another can show my fault and object . if eh proves it I will or can correct my thinking or conclusion . But let him show or prove it not by simply quoting a scripture but by showing his understanding is right and I am wrong .
You say then that only the Holy ghost gives the understanding .
You are right .
But what then do we have Apostles ,Prophets , Teachers ,Pastors and Evenagelists ? if not to lead the church in the manner of their ministry to that end that the scriptures speak of?
In truth we are not to blindly follow any man but if we are His then the Spirit of truth abides in us and we are led along the way as they were led along the way and the Spirit of God barreth witness with our spirit the truth of it .
But the proof of it is to go to the letters of Paul and see if these things be true as to a biblical argument .
I have no fear at all of contradiction in that matter.
The letters then of Paul are as a conversation .For he asks questions in his letters which the listeners were expected to answer in their own hearts .
But you yourself say that its between God and man and then say we are to reconcile man to God !?
No man can reconcile another man to God.
We may sow and another reap but it is God who gives the increase.
When the Lord said to those ordinary servants to go and fill the water pots with water .They were ordinary pots and it was ordinary water .
It was the Lord who changed the ordinary to the extraordinary.
Yet what said the Lord?
"Go into all the world and preach the gospel and make disciples of all men "
Then clearly there are servants of God who do so!
men to men.

But not in their own strength but in the power of God that he ahs imbued them with to do His will.

in Christ
gerald
 
Now in the case of a legal argument you need a legally trained mind to follow the argument .
Which not all have or the ability to do so .
But in the things of God we are to be transformed by the renewal of our minds . So that with the holy Spirits help we can follow Pauls argument accordingly both as to our maturity but also our willingness to follow or walk with him in it.
So it is not dependent at all on our mental abilities but upon our spiritual life and willingness to be led by Him who was promised to lead us into all truth .
But he expects his readers to not only read his letter but also follow the argument that they too might have the eyes of their understanding opened in the matters presented to them in the letetr and to us also .
Thus in the letter to the Hebrews he was primarily speaking to newly converted Jews who needed to be established in the faith beign fully persuaded in their minds and hearts that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and all that he wrote was to prove these things as well as teach us the inestimable value of a "better covenenant" a "better priesthood" "better promises " etc as well as establish in our minds the great truths of the Old Testament and the unfolding and progressive purposes of God.

in Christ
gerald
 
Major said:
gerald.........what do you think is more important, unity or truth?
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Truth comes first and then comes unity with Truth. Amen
When we speak forth the Word, God has spoken (engrafted) in our heart, only those He has spoken the same words to will hear us and receive us; they are of the same mind and in unity with the Spirit and in each other. Amen. We are made one with Him (the Word), and in each other.
Just because I am the foot heel and you may be the hand, does not mean we are not made up of the same body, it just means we are a different member of that body.
Lets try something: lay your hand out in front of you, spread your fingers out. Now, lets say God is the wrist, I see five (straight and narrows) that is going in the same direction, but on different journeys; thou the journeys are different, we are pushing for the same mark (which is to be with Him where He is). Amen. On the journey I travel will be found only the foot heels (being of like mind); God has spoken to them the same words of enlightenment He has spoken to me.
As God has shown me, so I give it on to you.
May the Lord God bless us ALL with His wisdom and understanding by revelation knowledge of Jesus Christ. Amen
 
However, when what someone is speaking does not bare witness with the Truth, it is then our responsibility to be gentle and correct, reprove, reproach, or rebuke the spirit that speaks, not the vessel it is coming out of. It is a spiritual thing; it is eternal.

The art of biblical argument (as you call it), I believe is not lost, but suppressed. We have been taught to do this by those who say they believe and know Him. However, upon searching scriptures and seeking His wisdom and understanding by revelation knowledge of Jesus Christ, I have realized (by way of the Holy Ghost, the only true Teacher), that they are not led of the Holy Ghost but the traditions and doctrines of men. Yep, they don't like a Spirit-filled believer to come in and expose them, anymore than they liked it when Christ entered into the synagogue and exposed them.
Do you love them as Christ loved them? or do we fear they will kill us too?
Why are believers stricken with a "spirit of fear"? because those who say they "believe" have killed every prophet God has sent to them; even His only begotten Son; and let's remember Stephen (the first martyr after Christ), while Paul stood by guarding their clothes and consenting to Stephen's death.

Has the spirits sitting on the pews changed?
So why does the "spirit of fear" still control the population of "God's people"?
God has not given us a spirit of fear; but one of love, understanding and a sound mind. Amen

Yes, the devil wants me to shut up... he does not want his people to wake up; he wants them right there on their pew fast asleep. There is no Word on the street because people fear death. Well, we do not know Him yet, then, because if we did we would not continue to hold on to this world knowing we have a mansion waiting and a crown of gold for our head, where there is no more pain, or sorrows, or tears, or hurt... get the picture?
 
Hello @crownoflife,

May God's perfect will be done, both in, and through you, for His Name and Glory's sake.

Hold fast to the truth that you have received, try all things, and let God's Word be the arbitur in all matters. -

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head
Chris
 
Complete said:
Hello @crownoflife,

May God's perfect will be done, both in, and through you, for His Name and Glory's sake.

Hold fast to the truth that you have received, try all things, and let God's Word be the arbitur in all matters. -

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head
Chris
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Thank you my dear sister, most try to rip my head off or throw accusations at me; I praise God for the words of encouragement you just spoke forth. Really, I PRAISE GOD for you and thank you again. May the grace of God and his Spirit rest upon you today, and forever. Amen
 
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