'The Hope of His Calling'

[geralduk]

So then you are saying that the Rapture is an essential of salvation! I thought that all that is required to be saved is belief in Christ dying for your sins and resurrected, defeating death and ascending to Heaven.

The church having reduced the gospel to the barest minimum (for peace sake) to being BORNagain it has negelcted the great truths that follows being BORN .
I dont know how you equate what is called the rapture but is more accurately called the" translation " is simply the event of the Lord coming to the AIR ............for His bride ."That where |I am ye maybe also"
The Bride will eb caught up to meet him in the air .
How is that related to being BORN again. it is not .
To be BORNagain qualifies us to "run the race" it does not win us the prize. For that you have to "finish the course " as well as win the prize.

The children of Israel were 'saved' from the bondage of Egypt which is a type for the world and thed oppression of Pharoah who is a type of the devil.
How were they 'saved'?
By the Word of God (To Abraham)
By the Power of God
and the blood of a lamb.
When?
While they were "without strength "
By Grace .and not of thier own works at all.
The deliverance FROM Egypt was then and is a type and foreshadow of that greater deliverance by a greater than Moses who would come after him but be like unto him.
and even as Moses by the hand of God delivered Gods people from the bondage of Egypt So then Jesus by the "finger of God" or the hand of God delivered all that would believe .
How?
By the Word of God , The power of God (the water and the Spirit ") and by the blood of the lamb that came to "take away the sin of the world"
When ?
When we were "yet without strength and at emnity with God and while we were yet sinners"
How ?
By the Grace of God and not of works lest any man should boast or glory in themsleves .
By grace are ye saved and not of works through faith and even that is also a gift of God.
But are we then to stop there?
and count wanderign in the wilderness as the NORM of a christians life?
God not only saved them FROM bondage he also saved them TO himself and for a PURPOSE For he not only told Abraham to get OUT he also told him to enter INto a promise .
So then the children of Isreal were saved FROM Egypt that they may also enter into the promise .
So to be BORNagain is to be saved FROM sin to become a new CREATION fro what purpose?
We are saved and reconciled unto God but also for a purpose .
It is a "high calling"
But men have made it a 'little ' one .
For what is MORE than a conquerer?
ALL then are CALLED OUT from Egypt as are ALL called TO be in the BRIDE .
How long did the children of israel take to get from the crossign of the red sea to the banks of the river Jordan?
The usual answer is 40 YEARS .
Then read the scriptures again. It actually took 40 DAYS .
and God said "go in and take the land for i have given it to you"
The promised land is not heaven. or "present with the Lord"
For" to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord."
But the body has also been redeemed but it is "yet ready to be revealed"
The body then still lies in the grave and corrupt .
Yet it has been redeemed and will be revealed so at the apointed time and it will be like His glorious body" or a gloryfied body of flesh and BONES.
animated not by the blood but by the Spirit of God.
But the rapture or translation of the Bride is of those who have died first in Christ and ready and those still alive and ready .
The dead will rise and corruption will put on inccoruption and with the living mortal shall, put on immortality .
and or both.
It is assumed ALL who are BORN again and in THAT case 'saved ' are automatically in the BRIDE.
This is imply not so.
and Paul warns the church NOT to be like the children of Israel "who entered not in because of unbelief "
Which is not just simply not believing God . But it is also believing the wrong message!
Evena s Eve did which paul also warns the church or he was also concerned unless we are decieved as Eve was.
But the church has made the unbeleif and the wanderign in the wilderness for 40 YEARS as the norm"!
and 'comforts itslef with the idea that we are all in the BRIDE anyway so we can wander as we will.
But I again draw your atention to the fact that the 5 foolish virgins were barred from the " MARRIAGE"
Not the kingdom.

I again what is MORE than a conquerer?
What you suggest (?) is that we all passively wait till we die and then are recieved into heaven.
But if you read the scriptures carefully .Some "enter rejoicing carryign thier sheaves with them" while others enter "weaping "

John the Baptist considered and understood(?) he was "the friend of the Groom"
At a wedding not only do you have the bride and groom you also have the freinds of both.
and others .
Close freinds .
"take care lest any or another take your crown"
Implying of course that while you cannot lose your salvation you can lose your crown.
Or your rewards .
Is it not written that" some will be saved but will suffer loss as through fire"?
Was not Lot one of those?
For he lost all but the saving of his soul. Despite the fact that at the beginning he was as rich as Abraham.
What of the man who commited adultery with hios fathers wife in Corinth?
Was his body not given to Satan that his soul may be saved?
What of those who partake of the Lords supper without due regard to the Body of Christ and as such have passed away because of it before the time .
We have reduced the bar and brought down the Word of God to our experience and said wanderign in the wilderness is the Norm .Others say the day of miracles is past .
Others major on baptism as if it was the be all and end all and meat for all .When paul says the subject is but the milk of the Word.
Others on the Sabbath and forget what the scriptures say about one holding all days holy unto God and another one day holy unto God and there should be no strife between either . Yet some will introduce the subject on such legality it genders the strife Paul warns to avoid and should not be.
Other claim the Holy Spirit and despise the evangelicals . The evangelicals reject the teachings of scripture as to the Holy Spirit because of the aceeses of others who claim an annointing etc .
But who in turn often reject sound doctrine and are .
We have so many versions of the Bible all claiming a "better understanding" Yet still the church is leaning towards a reverse reformation!
and eevry one is doign what is right in thier own eyes .
Shall we stop and consider whether God is so uncertain in His own mind as to what he means ,He cannot by the Spirit fo God enlighten men to it and needs must have a myriad of Bibles to explain himself?

So you will have to forgive me if I dont believe that the church is ready and in the main is decieved to think she is .
and while the lord says "Behold I stand at the door and knock "
The self same chuirch says that is not for us the church it is for the unsaved and the Lord is knockign on thier hearts door.
But what sayeth the scriptures?
"Listen to what the Spirit sayeth to the CHURCHES"

Then I say we should seriously consider whay the Lord is OUTSIDE knocking on the door .
When after the resurection no door was an obstical or a hinderance to Him.
So why is He knocking?

in Christ
gerald

 

[Major]

The church having reduced the gospel to the barest minimum (for peace sake) to being BORNagain it has negelcted the great truths that follows being BORN .
I dont know how you equate what is called the rapture but is more accurately called the" translation " is simply the event of the Lord coming to the AIR ............for His bride ."That where |I am ye maybe also"
The Bride will eb caught up to meet him in the air .
How is that related to being BORN again. it is not .
To be BORNagain qualifies us to "run the race" it does not win us the prize. For that you have to "finish the course " as well as win the prize.

The children of Israel were 'saved' from the bondage of Egypt which is a type for the world and thed oppression of Pharoah who is a type of the devil.
How were they 'saved'?
By the Word of God (To Abraham)
By the Power of God
and the blood of a lamb.
When?
While they were "without strength "
By Grace .and not of thier own works at all.
The deliverance FROM Egypt was then and is a type and foreshadow of that greater deliverance by a greater than Moses who would come after him but be like unto him.
and even as Moses by the hand of God delivered Gods people from the bondage of Egypt So then Jesus by the "finger of God" or the hand of God delivered all that would believe .
How?
By the Word of God , The power of God (the water and the Spirit ") and by the blood of the lamb that came to "take away the sin of the world"
When ?
When we were "yet without strength and at emnity with God and while we were yet sinners"
How ?
By the Grace of God and not of works lest any man should boast or glory in themsleves .
By grace are ye saved and not of works through faith and even that is also a gift of God.
But are we then to stop there?
and count wanderign in the wilderness as the NORM of a christians life?
God not only saved them FROM bondage he also saved them TO himself and for a PURPOSE For he not only told Abraham to get OUT he also told him to enter INto a promise .
So then the children of Isreal were saved FROM Egypt that they may also enter into the promise .
So to be BORNagain is to be saved FROM sin to become a new CREATION fro what purpose?
We are saved and reconciled unto God but also for a purpose .
It is a "high calling"
But men have made it a 'little ' one .
For what is MORE than a conquerer?
ALL then are CALLED OUT from Egypt as are ALL called TO be in the BRIDE .
How long did the children of israel take to get from the crossign of the red sea to the banks of the river Jordan?
The usual answer is 40 YEARS .
Then read the scriptures again. It actually took 40 DAYS .
and God said "go in and take the land for i have given it to you"
The promised land is not heaven. or "present with the Lord"
For" to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord."
But the body has also been redeemed but it is "yet ready to be revealed"
The body then still lies in the grave and corrupt .
Yet it has been redeemed and will be revealed so at the apointed time and it will be like His glorious body" or a gloryfied body of flesh and BONES.
animated not by the blood but by the Spirit of God.
But the rapture or translation of the Bride is of those who have died first in Christ and ready and those still alive and ready .
The dead will rise and corruption will put on inccoruption and with the living mortal shall, put on immortality .
and or both.
It is assumed ALL who are BORN again and in THAT case 'saved ' are automatically in the BRIDE.
This is imply not so.
and Paul warns the church NOT to be like the children of Israel "who entered not in because of unbelief "
Which is not just simply not believing God . But it is also believing the wrong message!
Evena s Eve did which paul also warns the church or he was also concerned unless we are decieved as Eve was.
But the church has made the unbeleif and the wanderign in the wilderness for 40 YEARS as the norm"!
and 'comforts itslef with the idea that we are all in the BRIDE anyway so we can wander as we will.
But I again draw your atention to the fact that the 5 foolish virgins were barred from the " MARRIAGE"
Not the kingdom.

I again what is MORE than a conquerer?
What you suggest (?) is that we all passively wait till we die and then are recieved into heaven.
But if you read the scriptures carefully .Some "enter rejoicing carryign thier sheaves with them" while others enter "weaping "

John the Baptist considered and understood(?) he was "the friend of the Groom"
At a wedding not only do you have the bride and groom you also have the freinds of both.
and others .
Close freinds .
"take care lest any or another take your crown"
Implying of course that while you cannot lose your salvation you can lose your crown.
Or your rewards .
Is it not written that" some will be saved but will suffer loss as through fire"?
Was not Lot one of those?
For he lost all but the saving of his soul. Despite the fact that at the beginning he was as rich as Abraham.
What of the man who commited adultery with hios fathers wife in Corinth?
Was his body not given to Satan that his soul may be saved?
What of those who partake of the Lords supper without due regard to the Body of Christ and as such have passed away because of it before the time .
We have reduced the bar and brought down the Word of God to our experience and said wanderign in the wilderness is the Norm .Others say the day of miracles is past .
Others major on baptism as if it was the be all and end all and meat for all .When paul says the subject is but the milk of the Word.
Others on the Sabbath and forget what the scriptures say about one holding all days holy unto God and another one day holy unto God and there should be no strife between either . Yet some will introduce the subject on such legality it genders the strife Paul warns to avoid and should not be.
Other claim the Holy Spirit and despise the evangelicals . The evangelicals reject the teachings of scripture as to the Holy Spirit because of the aceeses of others who claim an annointing etc .
But who in turn often reject sound doctrine and are .
We have so many versions of the Bible all claiming a "better understanding" Yet still the church is leaning towards a reverse reformation!
and eevry one is doign what is right in thier own eyes .
Shall we stop and consider whether God is so uncertain in His own mind as to what he means ,He cannot by the Spirit fo God enlighten men to it and needs must have a myriad of Bibles to explain himself?

So you will have to forgive me if I dont believe that the church is ready and in the main is decieved to think she is .
and while the lord says "Behold I stand at the door and knock "
The self same chuirch says that is not for us the church it is for the unsaved and the Lord is knockign on thier hearts door.
But what sayeth the scriptures?
"Listen to what the Spirit sayeth to the CHURCHES"

Then I say we should seriously consider whay the Lord is OUTSIDE knocking on the door .
When after the resurection no door was an obstical or a hinderance to Him.
So why is He knocking?

in Christ
gerald

Way, way, way to long to read Gerald. It was a real short question but you have managed to run off on several rabbit trails.

Can you "focus" on the question/comment asked and give a "cliff notes" response instead of a rambling book report?

 

[geralduk]

Way, way, way to long to read Gerald. It was a real short question but you have managed to run off on several rabbit trails.

Can you "focus" on the question/comment asked and give a "cliff notes" response instead of a rambling book report?

No I cant.
For one thing my reply to you must also take into account others who may also read it .
For another no proof of dotrine can be made or given with a sound bite .
Spiritual truths rarely have short answers. Though the initial question may be short.
What good it is If I simply assert soemthing? without giving a substantive reasoning to uphold it?
What good is it if you and I simply swap or send scriptures one to the other?
We can indeed refer to them but the verse alone in of and by its self by one verse prove a doctrine.
Paul used a biblical argument and in that sequential argument used what scriptures were needed and relevant to the subject to further hsi argument.
I suggest you read the letters to the Hebrews and Romans . as the fineste xamples of the principle of proving hsi case.
The question to which you asked clealry showed you did not understand what I had written to start with .
That perchance maybe because I had not done a good enough job of it .
But as I said in my reply the church ahs reduced the gospel our salvation to simply beign BORNagain. To which not only did i refer to but sought to give examples and argument as to why this is so.
I was therefore endevourign to reply to your post but was also seekign to communicate to others truths that pertain to the subject .
To you then it may have seemed rambling. But then you may or may not have needed to have every thing that was said .

The basic premise is is the WHOLE church the Bride or not?
There is enough scripture to show that the Bride is a body taken from the body. Even as Eve was taken from the body of the first Adam.

"You started way way to long to read."
I [presume by that you did not read it at all .?
One could assume then you simply wanted the preset answers so often given and accepted with out any proof to back them up.

in Christ
gerald

 

[Major]

No I cant.
For one thing my reply to you must also take into account others who may also read it .
For another no proof of dotrine can be made or given with a sound bite .
Spiritual truths rarely have short answers. Though the initial question may be short.
What good it is If I simply assert soemthing? without giving a substantive reasoning to uphold it?
What good is it if you and I simply swap or send scriptures one to the other?
We can indeed refer to them but the verse alone in of and by its self by one verse prove a doctrine.
Paul used a biblical argument and in that sequential argument used what scriptures were needed and relevant to the subject to further hsi argument.
I suggest you read the letters to the Hebrews and Romans . as the fineste xamples of the principle of proving hsi case.
The question to which you asked clealry showed you did not understand what I had written to start with .
That perchance maybe because I had not done a good enough job of it .
But as I said in my reply the church ahs reduced the gospel our salvation to simply beign BORNagain. To which not only did i refer to but sought to give examples and argument as to why this is so.
I was therefore endevourign to reply to your post but was also seekign to communicate to others truths that pertain to the subject .
To you then it may have seemed rambling. But then you may or may not have needed to have every thing that was said .

The basic premise is is the WHOLE church the Bride or not?
There is enough scripture to show that the Bride is a body taken from the body. Even as Eve was taken from the body of the first Adam.

"You started way way to long to read."
I [presume by that you did not read it at all .?
One could assume then you simply wanted the preset answers so often given and accepted with out any proof to back them up.

in Christ
gerald[/
Yea, that's it Gerald. You got it!

See ya!

Yea, that's it Gerald. You got it!

Have a wonderful day and we will see ya later.

 

[Major]

Way, way, way to long to read Gerald. It was a real short question but you have managed to run off on several rabbit trails.

Can you "focus" on the question/comment asked and give a "cliff notes" response instead of a rambling book report?

It sure would be a blessing to have "calvin" join in with us again!!!! I have missed him greatly!

 

[geralduk]

It sure would be a blessing to have "calvin" join in with us again!!!! I have missed him greatly!

Im not sure Calvin would find a good reception to his preaching. These days.Too 'severe' too long and unwilling to compromise .
But its amazinfg what he and other likeminded indoviduals did with thier so 'little learning' and we in comparison do so little with our "better understanding "?

in Christ
gerald

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi geralduk,

I admit I do not always read your long posts, but I have read what you have recently written here. I agree with a lot of what you have written & understand, I think where you are coming from & trying to convey. However I think we need to establish a great truth first.

1. Christ is the Head of the Body, & He is building it & maturing it, across the world & across the centuries. What you have described as the Body of Christ, is really man`s denominations, organisations. To measure what Christ the Head is doing in people`s lives by man`s efforts to organise people, is not accurate. If you could see into every true believer`s heart across the world & down through the centuries then you would clearly see what Christ by His Holy Spirit has & is achieving.

So you can see that I agree that many may call themselves a believer but it is to the overcomer, that Christ has promised to sit with Him on His throne in the third heaven - the high calling.

2. The name of the group with the high calling is NOT the bride, as that is an OT revelation. Notice that you are using scriptures that Jesus is talking to Israel.

Marilyn.

 

[geralduk]

Hi geralduk,

I admit I do not always read your long posts, but I have read what you have recently written here. I agree with a lot of what you have written & understand, I think where you are coming from & trying to convey. However I think we need to establish a great truth first.

1. Christ is the Head of the Body, & He is building it & maturing it, across the world & across the centuries. What you have described as the Body of Christ, is really man`s denominations, organisations. To measure what Christ the Head is doing in people`s lives by man`s efforts to organise people, is not accurate. If you could see into every true believer`s heart across the world & down through the centuries then you would clearly see what Christ by His Holy Spirit has & is achieving.

So you can see that I agree that many may call themselves a believer but it is to the overcomer, that Christ has promised to sit with Him on His throne in the third heaven - the high calling.

2. The name of the group with the high calling is NOT the bride, as that is an OT revelation. Notice that you are using scriptures that Jesus is talking to Israel.

Marilyn.

Hi Marylin thanks for comment .

I believe every "sound doctrine" of God can always be found in the Old testement . and has its first mention in the book of beginnings .
Where do you think the Lord got his from?
or for that matter Paul?
Did not Paul say to Timothy (?) "ye have all the scriptures that are able to make you wise unto salvation"?
What scriptures then are they ,if not the Old testament .
it is Paul speakign to you and me and all who believe in Jesus Christ. Philipians 3:14 "I press towards the mark the PRIZE of the high calling in God in Jesus Christ"
Did he not also say "Be ye followers of me even as I am also of Christ "?
If then he was pressign on towards that high calling to then are we to.
I do not dispute at all that jesus Christ is the HEAD of the body.
Even as a husband is head of his wife and then of the church .
But I again point out that the Lord is called the "second " and last Adam"
He is called the second Adam so then he is like unto the first Adam but there was no other 'Adam' Between the frist and the Lord.
He is called the last Adam and therefore is likened unto the first but after the Lord there are no other Adams.
and while it can be said as he is called the second and last Adam he is likned unto the first . The scriptures say that that the first Adam was but "the foreshadow of Him who was to come"
If then the first Adam was a foreshadow of the substance to come .Then the 'shadow ' gives an outline or some resemblence of the substance .
What then do we find ? That Adam was created from the dust of the earth but Eve his wife or bride was created FROM the body of Adam.
The first Adam was the head of this generation as he was also of Eve .
So then Jesus was not created but was BORN and is the head of another generation and the head of His body the Bride.
and if Eve came forth from the first Adam's body then the Bride will come forth from the last Adams body.

You suggest that what I have described is not the church ? But rather they "who call themselves believers "
But again I draw your atention to the fact that the scriptures say "Listen to what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES"
all but one he says needs to repent.
and to the last again I say the Lord is OUTSIDE the church knocking on the door.
That is not a message to the world but to the church .
The Bride must get herself ready!
and while in this world the bridal gown is made to fit the bride.
In the case fo the church the Bride must fit the gown .
When Jesus talked to the road to Emaus he "started at Moses ........."
What God spo0ke of in sundry times and in divers ways by the prophets only in PARTS was spoken of perfectly by the Son who not just spoke or carried the message he WAS the message .
Nevertheless ALL his teachings and doctrines can be found in the Old testament . In one form or another .
Is it not written "ALL scripture is inspired by Gid as is good for corection reproof and instruction in righteousness........."?
Then i say that ALL scripture is for me and was and is adressed to me and is instructive .
and while no man likes to be corrected or reproved me least of all . I endevour to makie sure that what I write or believe is right so i wont be .
Does not always happen of course . But you do not or have not proved either your case or undermined mine .

in Christ
gerald

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi geralduk,

Thank you for responding. You said `Where do you think the Lord got His from?` (sound doctrine) I would venture to say that the Lord Himself wrote the scriptures, but I think you mean - Where did the Lord quote from? (Is that what you mean?) Yes the Lord did quote from the OT to explain to the people of Israel what they didn`t understand. Also, as you noted the Apostle Paul quoted from the OT also, in reference to Israel but He never, no never quoted about the Body of Christ from the OT as it was hidden from the OT prophets.

We need to remember that all scripture is profitable for learning BUT the BIG BUT, it is NOT all about us. People tend to put themselves at the centre of God`s word, when actually it is all about Christ, His character & His purposes.

`Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)
Good to chat with you bro. Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi geralduk,

I actually meant this scripture, though the other one is good too.

`All scripture is given by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.` (2 Tim. 3: 16 & 17)

Now I realise you are well acquainted with this scripture, however I am pointing out that nowhere there does it say that ALL doctrine is found in the OT, or that God`s word is all about us. God`s word is profitable for.......many things, PTL.

Marilyn.

 

[Complete]

I understand your belief! The acceptance or rejection of the Rapture does or should not divide anyone.

Hello @Major,

This thread was not begun with the intention of discussing the revelation given in Thessalonians, which has acquired the name, 'the rapture', but to rejoice in the uniqueness of 'the Church which is His Body', and it's hope: made known to Paul, and revealed in the letters written from prison. (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Timothy and Titus).

The revelation given in Thessalonians which has acquired the name, 'the rapture', is not the hope of the Church which is His Body: for the Thessalonian letter was written before the revelation was given to Paul concerning it. That resurrection had application to the believers of the Acts period, because had Israel repented, the coming of the Lord would have taken place within their lifetime. They did not comprise the Church which is His Body, but the believing remnant of Israel, and those gentile believers who had been 'grafted in' to the Olive Tree of Israel.

All hung on Israel's repentance, which did not come: so, the prophecy of Isaiah 6:9,10, fell upon them in Acts 28:25-28, following Paul's warning in Acts 13:40,41; and their hope now lies in abeyance awaiting the coming of the Lord in the clouds of heaven, when they will see the marks of crucifixion in His resurrection body, and be brought to repentance.

It was not until then, that the revelation concerning the Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all, was given: revealing a knowledge that had been kept secret until that moment; giving as it does the truth concerning the fellowship of the mystery (or secret), and it's administration, for the church remaining, following Israel's laying aside (temporarily) in unbelief.

Thank you for your patience.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[geralduk]

Hi geralduk,

Thank you for responding. You said `Where do you think the Lord got His from?` (sound doctrine) I would venture to say that the Lord Himself wrote the scriptures, but I think you mean - Where did the Lord quote from? (Is that what you mean?) Yes the Lord did quote from the OT to explain to the people of Israel what they didn`t understand. Also, as you noted the Apostle Paul quoted from the OT also, in reference to Israel but He never, no never quoted about the Body of Christ from the OT as it was hidden from the OT prophets.

We need to remember that all scripture is profitable for learning BUT the BIG BUT, it is NOT all about us. People tend to put themselves at the centre of God`s word, when actually it is all about Christ, His character & His purposes.

`Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)
Good to chat with you bro. Marilyn.

Jesus himself did not write the scriptures being a man it was the Holy Spirit of God who inspired men to so write what was writen .
Jesus grew up studying the scriptures .His understanding of them even at the age of 8 or so when he went up with his parents to Jerusalem and was found in the temple after many days asking questions of the Pharassees . The questions beign of such understanding that they were staggered at them.
Yes he quoted from the scriptures but you will also not find any doctrine that he taught that was not in the scriptures . Using the scriptures in thier right context and givign thier true meaning. He also used them in his battles with the devil who as always also uses scripture but either omits parts or adds parts and uses them out of context to tempt the people fo God (even from the beginning) .
There was much hidden from the people of the Old Testament . For one reason being that "they were not made perfect without us" Another is they were only told in "PART" for prophets "can only speak in part" Beign imperfect they could only speak 'imperfectly ' or in parts .But in these last days God has spoken to us perfectly by His Son.

1. In another place it says "searching what or what manner of time that Spirit of Christ that was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that shall follow" 1Peter 1:11.
2. and what of Daniel? who sought understanding of that which he was shown but was told these things were sealed up till the last days
3. So I do not dispute that thinsg were hidden from them but not so hidden that they could not put thier faith in that which was promised .
4. The salvation of God was declared by the Lord God Himself in the garden of Eden , It was in part but there was enough for any man to put his faith in as Abel proved and Cain did not .
5. I dont know why these numbers are coming up please bare with me. It is clear as to why the Bride was not taught in the Old testament even as it is also clear why the great mystery of God hidden from before the foundations of the world that God would make Jew and Gentile in one body.
6. But before that could be revlealed God had to teach the difference between clean and unclean and the true Holyness of God and that none are justified by the law and none are justified without the law ands that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God "
7. That God was justified in ALL His ways and his judgments like the great mountains .
8. That Gods word is both unbreakable inccoruptable and the consequences of rejecting it are and would be manifested to all .Both in heaven and on earth.
9. Is it not written that it is "line upon line ,precept upon precept"? Truth has a foundation and is built so and in such a way that it becomes like a house . You cannot learn fractions and then algebra till you have learnt the milk of mathematics which are +-x and division.
10. Nevertheless even as both the sacrifice of animals was first preached in the garden as a covering for sin and as paul later taught in Hebrews was temporary and then the promise which was given at the same time that would remove what the blood of animals could only cover and was therefore perminent also preached by Paul.
11. So then also the Bride can be found in the book of genesis in the garden of eden as also in the first book . and through out the OT.
12. If we allowed that a man can preach a doctrine that was only revealed to him (so it might be said ) but could not be proved by the scriptures then you must and should suspect that 'revelation.'
13. True it was that it was revealed to Paul who first got the understanding .But that understanding is firmly rooted and founded upon the scriptures !
14. Luthor got the understanding that "the just shall live by faith" it is not only stated in the New but taught throughout all the Old . and he was able to stand not on his revelation but upon the the Word of God.
15. Peter himself while confessign the truth as to what he saw and heard on what is called the mount of transfigueration still said he had "a better prophecy" Meaning he had a more surer grounds for his confidence which was the Word of God.
16. It is not w ritten man shall not live by bread alone but by every revelation we may or say we have gotten.
17. But it si written "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God "
18. So the Lord got his doctrines from the Old testament and proved it so by quoting the scriptures as his authority .
19. He spoke with authority not liek the pharasees because he was under authority and his mind was always in subjection to the Spirit of God his understanding therefore was of God and not fo men .The Pharasses qualifications was of men as also thier authority for many of them were not in submission to God .
20. Pauls was as if not more qualified than all the pharasses put together and he lists his 'qualifications '
21. Yet if you look at all his letetrs carefully you will find that in all the things he boasted he later laid out in what he taught us were the very antiithis of the subjects of his boasting .
22. These numbers are annoying.
23. I did not say the scriptures are all about US . I said that ALL scripture is instructive .Quite different .
24. It is my conviction that primarily and above all things the scriptures are a revelation of God .
25. But the scripturews DO say they are profitable to us and" will furnish (an interestign choice of word) the man of God ......."with all that he needs .

In Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

Hello @Major,

This thread was not begun with the intention of discussing the revelation given in Thessalonians, which has acquired the name, 'the rapture', but to rejoice in the uniqueness of 'the Church which is His Body', and it's hope: made known to Paul, and revealed in the letters written from prison. (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Timothy and Titus).

The revelation given in Thessalonians which has acquired the name, 'the rapture', is not the hope of the Church which is His Body: for the Thessalonian letter was written before the revelation was given to Paul concerning it. That resurrection had application to the believers of the Acts period, because had Israel repented, the coming of the Lord would have taken place within their lifetime. They did not comprise the Church which is His Body, but the believing remnant of Israel, and those gentile believers who had been 'grafted in' to the Olive Tree of Israel.

All hung on Israel's repentance, which did not come: so, the prophecy of Isaiah 6:9,10, fell upon them in Acts 28:25-28, following Paul's warning in Acts 13:40,41; and their hope now lies in abeyance awaiting the coming of the Lord in the clouds of heaven, when they will see the marks of crucifixion in His resurrection body, and be brought to repentance.

It was not until then, that the revelation concerning the Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all, was given: revealing a knowledge that had been kept secret until that moment; giving as it does the truth concerning the fellowship of the mystery (or secret), and it's administration, for the church remaining, following Israel's laying aside (temporarily) in unbelief.

Thank you for your patience.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Just for clarification ;are you suggestign that what is called the rapture is the resurection?
For that si waht you seem to be saying
In Christ gerald

 

[geralduk]

Hi geralduk,

I actually meant this scripture, though the other one is good too.

`All scripture is given by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.` (2 Tim. 3: 16 & 17)

Now I realise you are well acquainted with this scripture, however I am pointing out that nowhere there does it say that ALL doctrine is found in the OT, or that God`s word is all about us. God`s word is profitable for.......many things, PTL.

Marilyn.

True it does not say all doctrine is found in the OT.
But none the less you will not find one "sound doctrine" that cannot be found in the OT and its first mention in the book of beginnings.

in Christ
gerald

 

[Complete]

Hi @geralduk,

Marilyn is right in pointing out that the truth concerning the Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him the filleth all in all, was not the subject of either Old Testament prophecy, the gospel record, or of the letters written prior to it's revelation. That knowledge was indeed, 'hid in God' until the moment came for it's revelation, and Paul was God's chosen administrator.

The fact that it was not the subject of Old Testament prophecy was a stumbling block to believers at the time of it's revelation, for Paul found many deserted him. He had the unenviable task of giving a word which was not verifiable by the Old Testament Scriptures: they were indeed 'unsearchable riches'.

' ... Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
Who created all things by Jesus Christ: ... '
(Eph 3:8,9)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

Just for clarification ;are you suggestign that what is called the rapture is the resurection?
For that si waht you seem to be saying
In Christ gerald

No @geralduk,

There is more than one resurrection spoken of in Scripture.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[geralduk]

Hi @geralduk,

Marilyn is right in pointing out that the truth concerning the Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him the filleth all in all, was not the subject of either Old Testament prophecy, the gospel record, or of the letters written prior to it's revelation. That knowledge was indeed, 'hid in God' until the moment came for it's revelation, and Paul was God's chosen administrator.

The fact that it was not the subject of Old Testament prophecy was a stumbling block to believers at the time of it's revelation, for Paul found many deserted him. He had the unenviable task of giving a word which was not verifiable by the Old Testament Scriptures: they were indeed 'unsearchable riches'.

' ... Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
Who created all things by Jesus Christ: ... '
(Eph 3:8,9)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

It was and is verifiable by Old Testement scriptures what they could not swallow was it ran counter to thier OWN thinking.
A mistake the pharassees made also.
It is therefore hidden in the Old testament but no understanding was given to them till it was given to paul first .
A fien example would be Luthors enlightenment as to "the just shall live by faith" It was rejected by many for the very same reasons it ran counter both to many a mans thinking (even Cains) as also to thier man made traditions .
Not only is it quotable from the new Testament but Paul proved it by the Old .
and the reason why Abel was accepted and cains offerign was not .
The unsearchable riches of Christ does not mean they are unsearchable but that you will never be able to know the depths hights and breadths of those riches.
For example it is written that "The goodness of God is past finding out"
yet what says the scriptures? "Oh taste and see that the Lord is good"!
"There are waters up to the ankles , waters to the loins and waters to swim in "
Thus to little children paddlign in the water to the swimmer have all tasted of the goodness of God and search a little of his profound riches and therefore of oen body .
But the young man say who is up to his loins feels the power of the sea that a little child does not and the young man is a little afraid because he feels not only the power fo the sea but also the weakness of himself and it could destroy him.
But a man who with a little courage has taken his feet from off the bottom has found to his joy that that power upholds him and enables him to swim.
But no matter how good a swimmer he may be he might evgen swim the chanel but no man is going to swim the pacific or plumb all its depths . he might even build a ship and go to new worlds .Yets till he has not nor will exhaust the riches of the sea as it were.

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

No @geralduk,

There is more than one resurrection spoken of in Scripture.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

True there is more than one resurection in scripture. But what is called the rapture is not one fo them.

in Christ
gerald

 

[Major]

Im not sure Calvin would find a good reception to his preaching. These days.Too 'severe' too long and unwilling to compromise .
But its amazinfg what he and other likeminded indoviduals did with thier so 'little learning' and we in comparison do so little with our "better understanding "?

in Christ
gerald

I do not agree ! "calvin" is one of the more Biblically correct and educated people that is on this web site my friend.

I find it incomprehensible that YOU of all people would say that he was "TOO LONG and unwilling to compromise".
That is actually hysterical!!!

As for "too severe". Truth is a two edged sword which cuts to the bone. Some people can accept it and some can not because of their inability to be corrected.

 

[Major]

No @geralduk,

There is more than one resurrection spoken of in Scripture.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

What is your understanding if I was to say that the first was Jesus, and with Him there were the holy people who came out of their tombs in Matt. 27:52-53.

Then we have believers who died in Christ and will be resurrected at the time described in 1 Thes. 4:16-17, whatever we place on name on that event.

Then finally the resurrection of tribulation martyrs in Rev. 20:4, and Old Testament saints described in Daniel 12:2 which is at the time of the 2nd Coming. Would you agree that they are all part of the first resurrection and therefore the Bible indicates that the first resurrection spans a period of about 2,000 years.

Now if we take into consideration that in 1 Thes.4:16-17 Paul wrote that the resurrection of Church Age believers will coincide with the event we have now come to call the Rapture.

Then what would you say about what Isaiah wrote of a resurrection that would precede the time of God’s wrath in his book in Isaiah 26:19-20, and Paul said the rapture would also precede the coming wrath as seen in 1 Thes. 1:10.

I personally believe that is what Jesus confirmed this in Rev. 3:10. Since the resurrection of the Church and the rapture will happen at the same time, would that not then tell us that this can only be the resurrection of those who died in Christ. So the resurrection of Church Age believers has to precede the 2nd Coming by at least 7 years, the duration of the time of God’s wrath.