Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Marilyn C, Apr 23, 2016.
I believe that the main error in echatology starts right here with people`s wrong interpretation of the Great Image. God gave this image to portray an overview of the Gentile`s World Rulership on earth. Four Empires have come & gone & there is one final one to manifest.
When God gave the dream to Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon the other empires had not yet arisen, but God declared them in His word. Thus it is not up to us to specualte or have opinions for God has said who they all are.
So let`s start with God`s word -
`You, O king, were watching; & behold, a great image! This image, whose splendour was excellent, stood before you; & its form was awesome.
This image`s head was of fine gold, its chest & arms of silver, its belly & thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly iron & partly clay......` (Dan. 2: 31 – 33)
Now God` s interpretation for the Great Image -
`This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength & glory; & wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field & the birds of heaven, He has given them into your hand, & has made you ruler over them all – you are this head of gold.
But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces & shatters all things; & like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces & crush all the others.
Whereas you saw the feet & toes, partly of potter`s clay & pertly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly iron & partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong & partly fragile.
And as you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay
And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed;....` (Dan. 2: 36 – 44)
From God`s word, I believe we know that the parts of the great Image are –
THE HEAD – BABYLON. `you are this head..` Nebuchadnezzar.` (Dan. 2: 38)
THE CHEST & ARMS –MEDES & PERSIANS. `Your kingdom has been divided & given to the Medes & Persians.`(Dan. 5: 28)
THE BELLY & THIGHS –GREECE. `the male goat is the kingdom of Greece.`(Dan. 8: 21)
THE LEGS –ROME. `And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.` (Luke 2: 1)
THE FEET & TOES – THE DIVIDED KINGDOM. `shall be different from all othe kingdoms, & shall devour the whole earth,...` (Dan. 7: 23)
And from God`s word I believe we know that the metals are –
GOLD – complete power by the king. `For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength & glory:...` (Dan. 2: 37) `You O king have made a decree....` (Dan. 3: 10)
SILVER – inferior power. `But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours...` (Dan. 2: 39) `Now, O king establish the decree....according to the law of the Medes & Persians, which does not alter.` (Dan. 6: 8)
BRONZE – also inferior of power.`then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.` (Dan. 2: 39)
IRON – strong power. `And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron,...` (Dan. 2: 40)
IRON & CLAY - partly strong & partly fragile. `Whereas you saw the feet & toes, partly of potter`s clay & pertly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; .......so the kingdom shall be partly strong & partly fragile.` (Dan. 2: 41 & 42)
Thus I believe, we see that God has shown us that the 5 parts of the Great Image, being the 5 world rulers – 4 have gone & one to come.
Then God has given us a descriptionof the power of those rulers. The first, Babylon being the most powerful, then the others are inferior to that, till finally the last power is divided, partly strong & partly weak.
As well we know we cannot base doctrine, teaching on one scripture, let alone a symbol, thus we need more scripture to clearly show us who this final `divided kingdom` is.
What are your thoughts based upon God`s word?
Note please use scripture & not waste time with speculation & opinions, especially of symbols.
Well, there's no scripture for all five kingdoms, so speculation is all you're gonna get. Everyone has an opinion which you've asked for, and the whole dream is of symbols. What's left to talk about? Daniel and Revelation are linked. So, here's a portion from my study:
Revelation 17:3 “So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”
To the Lord God of Israel, everything about Islam is blasphemous. They worship a man (Muhammad), a meteorite in Mecca they call the “Black Stone”, and their god (Allah) is clearly Satan. Muhammad took the Scriptures and turned it inside out to become the Koran. I don’t know how much more blasphemous a religion could be! As to the seven heads, they are seven kingdoms that John prophesied on later in verse ten, and the ten horns are kings: five are fallen, one is, and one is yet to come.
The fallen kingdoms that once ruled over Israel are:
Egypt - 1 King – 1 Kingdom
Assyria - 1 King – 1 Kingdom
Babylon - 1 King – 1 Kingdom
Media-Persia - 1 King – 1 Kingdom
Greece - 4 Kings (Alexander’s four generals) – 4 Kingdoms
One is (at the time of John’s writing):
Rome 1 King – 1 Kingdom
One is not yet come (at the time of John’s writing):
Islamic Caliphate 1 King – 1 Religious System of varying Kingdoms
The ten horns were/are the leaders. When Greece’s leader died (Alexander) his kingdom was divided amongst his four generals69 so in the Lord’s count, Greece gets a count of four because the empire of Greece did not remain whole. Rome has many "kings" but they were still only one system. Islam, though a non-unified group of nations, they were the kingdom "yet to come", they came, and now they are not (Mar 3, 1924), but their Caliphate will re-emerge.
Revelation 17:11 “And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”
Now I’m going to deviate from the norm concerning Rome. In Daniel’s statue, the bronze belly and thighs are Greece. What people forget is that this “Roman leg” division happened at the "thighs" of Greece, with its division into the East and the West. At the knees, the body splits off into two bones – the tibia and the fibula. I believe the western leg was the political Roman system until the knees. The division into two bones became the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox systems. The eastern leg is Islam, and at the knees, divides into Sunni and Shia systems. All these groups “pray” on their knees.
The eighth king comes from the seventh kingdom and it is this eighth king that will go into perdition. The sixth kingdom was Rome, so the seventh to rule over Israel was Islam (Ottoman Empire), therefore the eighth kingdom will be the rise of Islam. The Caliphate is the seat of power for all Islam, a ruler who is like a president, a general, and a spiritual leader. The position is inclusive. The first Caliphate was Muhammad in Medina, Arabia around 630 AD. After his death, there were successive Caliphates, but in the end, Islam split into the Shi'a and Sunni belief systems that still thrive today. The Caliphate ended on 3 March 1924 with the creation of the secular Turkish government after the abolishment of the Ottoman Empire. Hence, the feet of clay – so mixed and weakened without purity of beliefs. In fact, in Hebrew, “arab” means “mixed people”. Someday soon, the Turkish people will elect a Sharia government, which will reinstate the Caliphate. In an excellent article in the Hudson New York, Steven Simpson writes in his article Turkey:
Islamism's Consequences for the West, “For now, Turkey, still a powerful member of NATO, and still presumably a friend of America, teeters between East and West. A ‘neo-Ottoman’ Empire -- like a ‘neo-Czarist’ Russia that appears in the making -- is something that America, the West, and Israel, should take seriously.
“In the Middle East, the past is never forgotten and never forgiven. The future in the Middle East often consists of the merging of the present with the past. The West might therefore be well advised to prepare for the day that a once pro-Western secular Turkey no longer exists. The once "sick man of Europe" of the 18th and 19th centuries has now become the 21st century "strongman of the Middle East." While the secularist Kemalist ship is sinking in the Straits of the Bosporus, the neo-Ottoman Islamist ship of Erdogan is docking at the port of Istanbul.”
Revelation 17:12-13 “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”
Now if there’s anything I learned about Scripture, it’s that many verses have a double meaning and these ten kings are not just from the statue of Daniel, but are future kings which will surrender everything to the antichrist. These kings will destroy the whore and make her desolate. Verse 18 states that this is a great city – Babylon, Iraq. It will be rebuilt. So why would these Islamic nations destroy Babylon and the Islamic system and the oil?
Daniel 11:36-38 “And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.”
As you can see, the antichrist will rise to power and then do what he wants – especially when he’s fooled the world by his power. “And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast...” (Rev 13:14a) Notice in the verses of Daniel above, the antichrist will neither regard the God of his fathers – Abraham via Ishmael – nor regard the desire of women (won’t listen to their pleas because in Islam, women are second-class people). Who else in the entire world today beheads (Rev 20:4) their enemies? Islam! The antichrist (Satan possessed) will declare that he is God, yet he will honor the god of forces – violence, military, and terrorism. Babylon may or may not be rebuilt to the opulence it once had, but from Daniel’s statue, the starting place of Islam’s history to its very end of history, when destroyed, will come full circle.
With the birth and growth of Islam, and their pure unifying hatred of Israel, these ten kings and the antichrist, in war with the West, destroy the lifeblood of the West’s economy – oil. A great military strategy. Nevertheless, their end is destruction:
Daniel 2:34-35 “Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.”
Daniel 2:45 “Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.”
Jesus Christ comes from heaven to earth (the Stone) to destroy those who have attacked His own. Notice that the statue: the iron, clay, brass, silver and gold are broken “together”. Not only will the world marvel at the head that was wounded and brought back (the Caliphate) but the enemies throughout all of history of Israel in one new kingdom, the antichrist’s kingdom. Who is it that is destroyed? Throughout Scripture, they are all today Islamic countries. His garments will be dyed in blood of His enemies (Isaiah 63)! Jesus Christ comes to set up His one thousand-year reign! Glory to God! What a time that will be!
The moral of the entire dream is that a Kingdom will come that will destroy all of them, and that no other Kingdom will be able to over power it's people.
Dan 2:44.. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Out of all these other Kingdoms come "false" religions, but the Kingdom of God will destroy all of them completely, by breaking them to pieces through his Word. This was a promise given by God the Father to his Son Jesus Christ.
Psa 2:8.. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9.. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
And then Jesus turns around, and gives this same power to those who overcome!!!
Rev 2:26.. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27.. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Oh happy day!!
Thank you for your thoughts & detailed study. However I don`t think you read my OP carefully, for you said -
I asked for -
I will get back to you after I have studied your notes.
Yes I also believe the truth of God`s word that shows us who the Gentile World Rulers are in history & one to come, & `Oh happy day,` when the Lord deals with man`s government.
This is what I am asking - (fill the gap)
Now we know -
The Head – God tells us that is Babylon. `you are this head.....Nebuchadnezzar.` (Dan. 2: 38)
The Chest & Arms – God tells us that is the Medes & Persians. `Your kingdom has been divided & given to the Medes & Persians.`(Dan. 5: 28)
The Belly & Thighs – God tells us that is Greece. `the male goat is the kingdom of Greece.`(Dan. 8: 21)
The Legs – God tells us that is Rome. `And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.` (Luke 2: 1)
The Feet & Toes – God tells us that is ......................................... (........)
Hi @Marilyn C,
I am watching this thread with interest. Your OP; Abdicates entry; and that of CCW95A; have been interesting. I am now looking into the feet and toes myself.
Thank you for introducing this subject.
In Christ Jesus
I did read and replied accordingly... maybe you didn't mean what you wrote?
Text above in red font was added by calvin. Plus the the Scripture references.
We can only look backward to see who the rest of the body represented. In like manner looking backward shows who the feet and toes were/are.
Dan 2:34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
Dan 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
Dan 2:36 "This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation.
Dan 2:37 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,
Dan 2:38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold.
Dan 2:39 Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,
Dan 2:45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."
As for the stone that is clearly the Christ and His eternal Kingdom.
Coming soon......but how soon?
Looking forward to your thoughts also.
Thank you for `filling the gap.` However do you notice that you have only used the symbol to back up your thoughts. No doctrine is based on a symbol. So would you like to try again?
Yes, I`ll clarify what I meant. I did not want people to give their opinions or speculations from their imaginations, but rather their thoughts based on God`s word so there is a basis for discussion.
Now I realise that because you think there is no scripture for the 5 kingdoms then you say that speculation is all I will get. You said -
`Well, there's no scripture for all five kingdoms, so speculation is all you're gonna get.`
However as I do believe God would not leave the interpretation of His symbols to us, (as we`d have as many interpretations as people) thus I believe God has revealed His interpretation in His word.
Those who have been taught the Revived Roman Empire theory, do not realize that that whole doctrine is based upon man`s interpretation of God`s symbol. The symbol is the basis of their interpretation & they have no other scripture to back up what they are saying. And we know that no doctrine can be based upon a symbol.
So how has this Revived Roman Empire theory come about?
After World War 2 when Europe was decimated, the Allies gave 4 leaders power to form a European Common Market to rebuild Europe. These 4 heads of state only ruled over 6 countries. Then as time went by other European countries wanted to join this gathering Union & so 7, 8, 9, 10 countries became the European Economic Union.
When some Bible scholars saw this they thought, this must be the 10 kings that will rule over the world, & thus what we are seeing is a revived Roman Empire.
However as we all know & history has proven, the European Union now has 27 countries operating together.
We also know that the birth rate of Europeans has fallen & at the stage where they cannot sustain themselves. Added to that the Islamic people of great number in Europe are reproducing at a great rate that will over take the Europeans very soon.
Thus Europe as a Revived Roman Empire is not only NOT possible, but is scripturally incorrect.
Thank you for that part of your study. There is quite a lot of detail there. Now obviously I agree with the history part & I also agree with your conclusion. The difference I have is in your workings of the symbol. I see how you are thinking & have heard that before, but again I say it does not have any other scriptural backing.
Still, it is a good thing that we agree that the `feet & toes,` will be the coming Islamic Federation. I will post scriptural details soon.
As to the other details in your study you may want to discuss when I post other threads – Daniel 7, & Revelation 13.
'And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes,
part of potters' clay, and part of iron,
the kingdom shall be divided;
but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron,
forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay,
so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay,
they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men:
but they shall not cleave one to another,
even as iron is not mixed with clay.'
Hello @Marilyn C,
In regard to the toes: the words highlighted in red, need consideration don't they? For we have 'the seed of men' spoken of, and a party - 'they', - that - 'shall mingle themselves with the seed of men'. It appears that those spoken of as, 'They', are the iron, of the iron and clay mix.
The, 'They' have to be beings other than that categorized as, 'the seed of men'. Could these be 'angels' (as in the days of Noah - Gen.6)?
Do you have any thoughts concerning this?
In Christ Jesus
Hello again, @Marilyn C,
Demon possession, and Satanic influence will characterise the last days, as we know.
In Daniel 2:44, the prophet says: 'In the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom'. In the days of what kings? Well Nebuchadnezzar, Darius and Alexander are historically impossible, so what kings reign when the kingdom of the Lord is set up? Daniel 7:24 tells us that ten kings shall arise at the time of the end: and in Revelation 17:12 it says,
'The ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.'
The ten horns of the beast and the ten toes of the image appear to speak of the same ten kings:
'And as the toes of the feet ... in the days of these kings'
This must be Satanic power spoken of in Revelation 17:12, mustn't it? (possibly - The mingling of iron and clay?)
In Christ Jesus
Thank you for taking part in this discussion. I do not see that these have to be other than men. God would have said `angels` or `spirit beings` if that is what He meant. Also angels do not have our physical bodies & do not have sexual apparatus for procreation.
Yes I also agree that demonic possession & Satanic influence will characterise these last days. Although we know of course that Satan & his demons have held sway over man throughout history.
As to the 10 kings, I believe God says they are kings & has not used the word angels or spirit beings. Thus it is what is written. I will be doing a thread on Daniel 7 if you would like to discuss this, later on.