The Existence Of Hell

I'm curious, you say that "There is nothing sacred about men and their traditions" - may I ask, then, what it is about the Bible that makes you say it's not just as man-made as everything else? Do you think the Bible fell from the sky one day in a leather-bound KJV edition? And speaking of editions, why are there so many? Which one is God's true and intended words?

Also, how do you know the laws and traditions and rituals are opposed by God? You don't - you've been told that by Should you not examine those rituals, traditions, etc. to see what their purpose is, to see what they to do honor God and uphold His teachings before discarding them as "man-made"?

This isn't to say corruption didn't set in - of course that is going to happen when churches get too big and too powerful and even become ruling entities. I could draw parallels to today's modern fundamentalists doing the same thing though - Jerry Falwell asking his viewers to send him money otherwise God will "call him home". As for people having no access to a Bible, that's partly because of the lack of ability to make any kind of books freely available prior to things like the printing press, and partly because of the attitude that making it freely available without appropriate people to instruct from it would result in many people interpreting it their own way, and I don't have to tell you that we have over 40,000 Christian denominations these days. Oops.
The Bible has stood the test of time. No other book contains such all-encompassing information and knowledge about life, written beyond the skill level of any human or group of humans. If they were authored by all these different men from different generations and centuries, how is it they speak of a single religion, yet coordinate without contradiction. Many did not know of the other books being written during the same time period, and even though they are writing of the most difficult of subjects, somehow they fit together like a puzzle. What kind of author writes of their foibles and how unworthy they are, and the actual evil crimes they committed? Undeniable truth spills from its pages. They were unwilling to lower themselves by discussing details about bodily functions beyond the occasional pertinent mentioning, yet told the horrible truth about hanus acts of killing children and women, and gangs of men knocking on your door, wanting to have the visiting man/men to join in their sexcapade.

Add to that the number of people willing to die for this compilation of books and the many attempts to destroy its existence. What other book could that be said of? The Quran? Sorry, that is one author, and many are willing to kill for it as opposed to the near 0% of its religious leaders who were killed without showing or committing violence.

Yes, books which were not inspired by God needed to be weeded out when the scrolls were finally put into a codex. Again, measure and prove all things. The different editions and translations are needed because man's language is imperfect. Man changes the meaning of words all the time based on the context used. Add to that the cultural quirks of the time period each was written. Such as 1 Samuel 25:22, KJV uses "pisseth against the wall" to denote males in general. The Hebrew is literally make water on the wall, so you see changes over time need to be made, and the fallibility of any language can cause problems with literal translations. What would you translate that to for someone who does not know what a wall is? So I think the more translations there are, the better one is able to glean what the concept or meaning is.

On rituals and such, Matthew 6 and Matthew 23 shows what Jesus thought of those who were the most ritualistic and how they did things just for the show of it, to make men think highly of them. So I tend to stay away from the forms of extravagance and pageantry. I see no sense in reading scriptures in Latin or other foreign language on purpose when the vast majority of those listening can't understand it. That seems to me as a show and hollow in meaning. Paul was inspired to show how foreign words needed to be interpreted.

See, those who taught me "who claim to speak on God's authority" did so by using a standard which did not change when the next teacher came along. That is the reason for the Bible, to check on what you are being taught, because humans are skewed by their emotions and mental evaluations, of which I used here influenced by the teachings of the Bible. What else can you trust to help you have an "attitude based on God"? Someday basic tenants of the Catholic church will be changed, such as contraception, abortion, gay marriage and the like. All it takes is enough pressure from the parishioners and political irrelevancy. Look through history, many traditions and teachings were changed, and they will continue. Without the Bible as a standard, then all things are negotiable. Even God gave in when the Israelites cried out for a king. And then they paid the price.
 
The Bible has stood the test of time. No other book contains such all-encompassing information and knowledge about life, written beyond the skill level of any human or group of humans. If they were authored by all these different men from different generations and centuries, how is it they speak of a single religion, yet coordinate without contradiction. Many did not know of the other books being written during the same time period, and even though they are writing of the most difficult of subjects, somehow they fit together like a puzzle. What kind of author writes of their foibles and how unworthy they are, and the actual evil crimes they committed? Undeniable truth spills from its pages.
None of which gives any reason why equal weight cannot be given to the church teachings, many of which are as old as the Bible itself.

Yes, books which were not inspired by God needed to be weeded out when the scrolls were finally put into a codex.
And how do we know which books were inspired by God and which were not? You know how it was decided? They were voted on. By a committee. A committee of men...fallible human beings.

On rituals and such, Matthew 6 and Matthew 23 shows what Jesus thought of those who were the most ritualistic and how they did things just for the show of it, to make men think highly of them. So I tend to stay away from the forms of extravagance and pageantry.

That very "extravagance and pageantry" I find particularly attractive and it makes me feel closer to God. When it takes place it does not make me feel admiration to the human beings performing them but to God. I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

Someday basic tenants of the Catholic church will be changed, such as contraception, abortion, gay marriage and the like. All it takes is enough pressure from the parishioners and political irrelevancy. Look through history, many traditions and teachings were changed, and they will continue.
And for some of those things to change - why is that a bad thing? We managed to get rid of slavery, why can we not also get rid of treating homosexuals as second-class citizens and allow them to give the one life they were given in a way that brings no harm to anyone else but happiness to themselves? It is a very good thing to put pressure on rigid institutions when they are unreasonable and cause unnecessary pain to others.
 
None of which gives any reason why equal weight cannot be given to the church teachings, many of which are as old as the Bible itself.


And how do we know which books were inspired by God and which were not? You know how it was decided? They were voted on. By a committee. A committee of men...fallible human beings.



That very "extravagance and pageantry" I find particularly attractive and it makes me feel closer to God. When it takes place it does not make me feel admiration to the human beings performing them but to God. I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

And for some of those things to change - why is that a bad thing? We managed to get rid of slavery, why can we not also get rid of treating homosexuals as second-class citizens and allow them to give the one life they were given in a way that brings no harm to anyone else but happiness to themselves? It is a very good thing to put pressure on rigid institutions when they are unreasonable and cause unnecessary pain to others.
So you determine right and wrong based on...... what?
 
Someday basic tenants of the Catholic church will be changed, such as contraception, abortion, gay marriage and the like. All it takes is enough pressure from the parishioners and political irrelevancy

You will notice that what you suggest has not been the case. The Roman catholic Church sticks to doctrine regardless of peer pressure and has done so for centuries.
 
Someday basic tenants of the Catholic church will be changed, such as contraception, abortion, gay marriage and the like. All it takes is enough pressure from the parishioners and political irrelevancy. Look through history, many traditions and teachings were changed, and they will continue. Without the Bible as a standard, then all things are negotiable. Even God gave in when the Israelites cried out for a king. And then they paid the price.

You will notice that what you suggest has not been the case. The Roman catholic Church sticks to doctrine regardless of peer pressure and has done so for centuries.

Yup, an observation: for one: I noticed the Catholic Church remains faithful to the concept of Marriage.
 
So you determine right and wrong based on...... what?
Well, let's face it, most people determine right and wrong just fine even without the Bible. I mean, most atheists are not killers and rapists. This isn't to say I agree with them, but maybe in this life there are many place we can look to to obtain our own morality. Conversely, I have seen people who call themselves Christians do the most shameful things, such as the Westboro Baptist Church. For myself I kind of base it on common sense...I treat other human beings the way I would wish to be treated.
 
Ok... well... the only thing that comes to mind is: are we going to debate over the meaning what 'is' is? That's what you're saying right? If the word of God says "everlasting fire" I'm just supposed to believe that that's not what it means? Which word is subjective? Everlasting or fire? Please, I know it's easy to read emotions into text, but I'm just trying to be sincere. If we have no sure foundation, then we can believe anything. I'm not trying to force any agenda or even a belief, just the plain text of the word of God. Nothing more. But you're free to believe YOUR way as YOU see fit in YOUR eyes.

Well then abdicate should I say that you are going to hell?

Compared to the rest of the world, the fact that you or I have access to this forum, with a computer means that we are wealthier than the bottom half of the world. My guess is you live on a first world country, probably have access to clean water and food, most likely live in a house, probably have a car and you yourself are a rich man, far wealthier than anyone living in the first century.

Now the Bible says it is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God. A verse which refers to a narrow entrance into the city which required camels carrying large sacks to remove whatever they were carrying in order to enter. So tell me abdicate are you ready to declare yourself hellbound for maintaining your possessions inspite of the Word of God telling you clearly that such a act will lead only to death and destruction?
 
Well then abdicate should I say that you are going to hell?

Compared to the rest of the world, the fact that you or I have access to this forum, with a computer means that we are wealthier than the bottom half of the world. My guess is you live on a first world country, probably have access to clean water and food, most likely live in a house, probably have a car and you yourself are a rich man, far wealthier than anyone living in the first century.

Now the Bible says it is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God. A verse which refers to a narrow entrance into the city which required camels carrying large sacks to remove whatever they were carrying in order to enter. So tell me abdicate are you ready to declare yourself hellbound for maintaining your possessions inspite of the Word of God telling you clearly that such a act will lead only to death and destruction?
You clearly do not understand that passage. Meh.
 
Well then abdicate should I say that you are going to hell?

Compared to the rest of the world, the fact that you or I have access to this forum, with a computer means that we are wealthier than the bottom half of the world. My guess is you live on a first world country, probably have access to clean water and food, most likely live in a house, probably have a car and you yourself are a rich man, far wealthier than anyone living in the first century.

Now the Bible says it is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God. A verse which refers to a narrow entrance into the city which required camels carrying large sacks to remove whatever they were carrying in order to enter. So tell me abdicate are you ready to declare yourself hellbound for maintaining your possessions inspite of the Word of God telling you clearly that such a act will lead only to death and destruction?

Just reading along...
Precisely why I prefer Grammar and Logic, Rhetoric is complicated...
 
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