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The Error of Subjective Religion

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Noblemen, Jun 1, 2015.

  1. #1 Noblemen, Jun 1, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2015
    Nothing works right for believers under the law or believers attempting to live the "kingdom message" without subjective religion. Christianity is objective, religion is subjective. The understanding of these two words gives the believer the victory in every day living that God intended.

    Objective Christianity means the believer can do nothing, within himself, to save himself or to stay saved. Subjective religion puts the burden of being saved and staying saved on the believer. I call this subjective religion because it puts humans into self- works to become something they already are by being rebirthed in Christ.

    A believer adopting a course of self- effort or self-works will eventually put the emphasis of Christian living on himself rather than on the Christ in him. Everything at this point can become "me-isms" like, this is "my life," I can live it like I want to. These are "my things" I can do what I want with them.

    Life is mine, "my will and ways" are most important. I've got to look out for myself, "my feelings" are the way I have to live.

    While all these ideas are human, they ignore God's plan for living and most of all ignore the Christ who lives in the believer. Sadly, modern theology has written a new script for believers who live like this. This is subjective religion where multitudes of believers believe that since they are humans everything must revolve around them.

    Look in any Christian bookstore and you'll find the majority of subjects deal with what you can do to keep your salvation, or how to achieve as a good Christian, or how to have faith or power, or how to love yourself and others, or how to get the Holy Spirit, or how to get faith, or how To overcome frustration, cure mental health and be healed of all your diseases. I could go on and on, but these "how to" things lead believers to subjective religion where all the information puts the burden on them to be and to do. This happens even though Christ lives in them and Paul says Christ is our only life.

    The fact is, if we follow Paul as he follows Christ and I live in the epistles, we will know how to live the Christ-life that is in us. The Christ-life is objective-- a finished work at the cross and a grace work in its totality. The problem in Christianity is the gospel coming from Christ to Paul has not been preached. If we knew the Christ in us, Ephesians 4:20, we would never be in doubt as to who we are and what we are. Subjective religion has never had the answers and never will, but objective Christianity will produce a new creation in Christ.

    The fact remains: a believers growth comes from the gospel he hears, reads, and understands. Not having a definite direction when a believer reads and studies the Scriptures, he will never find the true message of God that is for him. Without this direction, when he studies someone's books or hear's someone's message, he can be confused. Where does this direction come from? Basically it comes from the Holy Spirit, who's ministry is to teach the believer about the Christ that is already in him.

    This is the clear direction every ongoing believer will have. Efforts relating to listening or studying anything else not akin to learning the Christ living in the believer will amount to nothing. If the believer never comes to the fullness of Christ in his knowing, then anything else he may have learned is futile. (Read first Corinthians chapters 1 and 2.)
     
    Complete and Juk say Amen and like this.
  2. Agreed. However, just to be clear, you are saying that believers do not have the ability to have faith as a power, or how to love yourself , or how to get the Holy Spirit, or how to get faith, or how To overcome frustration, cure mental health and be healed of all our diseases.........correct?
     
  3. Yes, I'm saying that we do not need to be taught "things," we already have them in in Christ. The preaching and teaching of Christ is the foundation stone to all things. Preaching about Him is not what is needed. Paul said we preach Christ. He would even say "the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God." Gal.2:20.
     
  4. You said................
    "Preaching about Him is not what is needed".

    Think that one through again brother. Did you mean that what is needed is the preaching of Christ and not the THINGS we want?

    I say that because you turned right around and said.......
    "Paul said we preach Christ."
     
  5. There is a big difference in preaching about Him and preaching Him as the life of the believer.
     
    Complete likes this.
  6. I hear you but IMO that is semantics. It seems as if we are saying the same thing but you are making it more difficult to understand. IMO.
     
  7. Again......
    "just to be clear, you are saying that believers do not have the ability to have faith as a power, or how to love yourself , or how to get the Holy Spirit, or how to get faith, or how To overcome frustration, cure mental health and be healed of all our diseases."

    You are saying the preaching of Christ in the believer is more important than those things.?
     
  8.  
  9. But isn't that simply due to the fact that Paul was NOT a companion of Jesus while He was alive here on the earth.
    How and every why would he be required to comment on something he knew nothing about????


    Are You saying the preaching of Christ in the believer is more important than those things.?
     
  10. Paul was alive at the time of Jesus but there is no record that I have found that they ever met. The preaching of Jesus Christ is theGospel. The things Jesus did while on earth were wonderful, all the healings, miracles, the lame to walk the blind to see, Leprosy cleansed. I am in no way making light of those things or saying they are not for us. The born-again have Christ in them as their life. Without the preaching of Jesus Christ as your only life the believer will never come to the knowledge of who he is. We need to know something about that and to have a Gospel that fits us (the born-again). I understand I make statements some believers have never heard, every believer needs to hear the in Christ message preached in its fullness.
     
    Complete likes this.
  11. While a lot of what you say is true, yet most of it is pie-in-the-sky and really means nothing. Speaking in generalizations only hurts your message. The only way you're going to be able to convey this message is to write a 3000 page book no one will read, or learn the principle of meditating on the word of God and letting the Holy Spirit teach you. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not saying come up with a 7-step program to living the Christian life, but you're making accusations without substance too. I'll give you just three verses that'll revolutionize one's life:

    Matthew 6:33 (KJV)
    But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. ​

    Joshua 1:8 (KJV)
    This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
    And the word "law" here is the word "teaching", meaning the whole word of God.

    1 John 2:27 (KJV)
    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. ​
     
    Juk and Noblemen say Amen and like this.
  12. Sure I understand, it's not my intention to be abrasive or controversial with anyone. I am giving my understanding of the Scriptures and my thoughts and experiences through the years as a christian counselor. I have seen on several occasions what religion can do to believers. I am not really a writer but I like to write I have done a few things through the years. I share to be a blessing with others and if I can say something to help I will.
     
  13. I enjoyed your post and agree with the general context.
    May I be allowed to offer furthering perspective?

    I heard a message not too long ago that offered the same premise that our relationship with Christ should be “objective” and not “subjective”; that our relationship is “realized in our personal relationship with Him.” However, we must also realize that there are deontological precepts in scripture that are firstly “subjective” to the mind, which can be “objectively allocated as truth,” as understanding materializes. Also all sources of knowledge are at first “processed subjectively.”

    For example: Love thy neighbor

    To the mind without understanding, this is just subjective text that is deontological, yet if a new Christian reads the text and uses their own reason to ascertain Spiritual revelation, it then can become “in his or her mind” objective truth “to him or her.”

    We as Christians can say that because Christ said it, that it was, is and always will be “objective truth,” yet our minds in our new-found growth will “receive all things subjectively first to then process it as being objective second.” We will call this process of "scriptural subjective information being understood and applied as objective truth" as the “sanctification process realized” via conviction, faith, reason, revelation and obedience.

    Further what is objective by our senses in the natural world and what is objective by faith? I should say that objective truth measured by natural measurement is natural objectivism, and objective truth shelved by faith is objective only to those who can believe. Thus objective position in scripture is extraneous to a natural objective substrate which will use the discernible senses, observance, logic, and rational judgment.

    If objective truth, a_priori knowledge, or assertoric facts in the world will then qualify a statement, then we must differentiate that from what we realize in the confines of faith; for that which is assertoic in the natural is true to all people in the world who physically observe, yet that which is true by revelation is true to those who believe in faith only.

    Example: The Ocean is full of water.

    This is an objective statement regardless if you have seen the ocean or not, and to the non believer a physical demonstration (showing the ocean) may need to confirm its objective existence. Yet if the person who did not believe in an Ocean had not seen one yet or been convinced, then that same statement would be in his or her mind “subjective information until they were convinced.” Thus new information in the mind is “firstly subjective.”

    The whole world can agree on “natural objective things” but only Christians can agree on “scriptural objective things”; for the world will classify scriptural objective things to be simply subjective.

    However, why did I differentiate the world and the Christian regarding objectivity? Because objective exploration is ultimately in competition with every mind that discovers, and in this simple contrast we can ascertain that our understanding is subjective to shelve what is objective truth interpersonally.

    Thus in the confines of faith we as Christians also are in competition by reason, and dialectical exchange to apprehend truth and must also not discredit the subjective, for it too offers us the ability to reason unto revelation for more truth as the Spirit intercedes with our understanding.

    Thus we can learn from a child who scribbles down a statement, a book, a message, or a post, and then measure it by revelation, scripture and understanding as the Spirit imparts.

    Again I thoroughly enjoyed your line of thinking; for objective understanding is individualistic as the Spirit mediates increasing discernible knowledge.
     
    Noblemen and DTB_Blog say Amen and like this.
  14. Wow, I think I basically understood what you wrote, and took it as a welcome addition to the OP's post. Admittedly, I do not know some of the terminology: what are "deontological precepts"?

    Thanks!
     
  15. No problem my friend

    Something deontological means that its "duty-bound based on a rigid code."

    Thus we could say the Ten Commandments are exemplar for providing a "deontological code."

    Precepts being principled delivery for that code.

    Christians see the be bible as a deontological premise delivered within various covenants.
     
  16. Thanks. That is a very interesting point about deontological precept first being subjective to the mind. I hadn't thought of that before and I think that will help me in communicating "objective" truth to others. Thanks!
     
  17. I have often thought about this in terms of American politics and law.
    The Constitution is the over arching law of the nation, yet what it says and the interpretations of it become very subjective. Some say it is a living, breathing document, which means we can find rights to anything based on the desire to make it so. It must change with society, as they say.
    In terms of religious liberty, often there comes the attacks from atheists, rather anti-theists, against religious belief, mostly Christian beliefs. Their minds cannot fathom spiritual truth and so they cannot be objective. All the while using subjective methods to deny the God of the universe, they convince themselves that they are objectively rationalizing what exists.
    What fascinates me is that they really do have religious beliefs. They deny this profusely all the while espousing their beliefs. They say "I don't believe in a god", and yet they do have a god. Their "self" is their god. Everything revolves around their knowledge, pleasure, lifestyle and worldview. It is these things which must be honored to appease their essence and understanding. For their "self" has the final say on what is evidence of existence.
    And while they have these religious beliefs which they want codified as part of law, they spout objections over any Christian belief which they see influencing law making, you know, when it opposes their worldview.
     
    Noblemen likes this.

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