The End Of Days

Think for a minute how indirect and weak is the Biblical evidence in support of a pre-tribulation rapture. Does the rapture of Enoch tells you that the rapture will take place before the tribulation? Does Moses striking the Rock tells you that? The words of Jesus to the church of Philadelphia could have several meanings, and a pre-tribulation rapture is the most unlikely of them. Only the church in Philadelphia will be abducted? Where is that church now? The evidence is as weak as it gets. On the contrary, the evidence for a post-tribulation rapture is direct and literal:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

You say there is much more evidence for what you believe and base that on Matt 24:29-31???

So you just blow off the whole inspired Word of God for your interpretation, good luck, here's a little nugget of Truth for you,

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Pet 1:20
 
You say there is much more evidence for what you believe and base that on Matt 24:29-31???

So you just blow off the whole inspired Word of God for your interpretation, good luck, here's a little nugget of Truth for you,

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Pet 1:20

What's your interpretation of 2 Peter 1:20? Do you think this proves that the rapture will take place after the tribulation?
 
What's my interpretation of 2 Pet 1:20?

It's not open to interpretation, ...it's fact!

WE don't/can't interpretate Scripture, that's why there is so much false doctrine in the church today, ...the Word is revealed to us, taught to us by the Holy Spirit, that is the reason for, the significance of the New Covenant,

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:31-34

But the anointing (Holy Spirit) which ye have received of him abides in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing (Holy Spirit) teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1Jn_2:27

New Testament doctrine, we don't interpretate the Word, the Holy Spirit teaches us all things through revelation, but if we don't want to receive what He is teaching then He is a gentleman and won't force us to believe, and we lose, continuing on in our deception.

Enoch was a type of the Church, he was raptured before the judgment of God fell on the earth, i.e., the Flood.

Moses struck the Rock twice, Paul tells us the Rock was a type of Christ, on the Cross Father struck His Son, Paul tells us we are in Christ, if the Church is present during the Trib then the wrath of God will strike the Son a second time, which will cause Father to have to apologize to Moses for condemning him, which sets a legal precedent for the devil to demand the same treatment, God being just must concede and voilá, ...we have the devil and the demons with us for all of Eternity, ...is that what you want, more important, is that what the Bible teaches?

Wanna take a look at 2 Thes 2?

Blessings,

Gene
 
They prophecy Jesus gave about His return is the generation that sees the fig tree buddeth, as has already be stated, the fig tree is a type of Israel and the fig tree budded on May 14, 1948, what is left is who is the generation?

In the Word a generation can be 40 years, 70 years or 100 years, many taught the Rapture would occur before May 14, 1988, but it has come and gone, the next possibility is the year 2018 and if the Rapture doesn't happen before that then it could be as far away as 2048, personally I hope it is before 2018 and I hope I live to be that old, ...because I think the Rapture will be the ultimate rush, whoa, ...snatched right out of my shoes, ...yes!

Blessings,

Gene

Hi Gene,

Several of the early Christians said that man suffer under the curse for 6000 years. Some said that the 6 days of creation where both historic and prophetic. In Hebrews the kingdom is called the Sabbath Rest, it is likened to the 7th day. Scripture says that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day, Scripture says that God worked 6 days and rested on the 7th. Revelation says kingdom will be 1000 years, if that is the 7th day then is implies 6 days prior to it. If a day is as a thousand years and there are 6 days before God rested it seems that there would be 6000 years before the Sabbath Rest that is the millennial kingdom. If you're interested I can give you quotes from some of the early Christians.
 
Hi Gene,

Several of the early Christians said that man suffer under the curse for 6000 years. Some said that the 6 days of creation where both historic and prophetic. In Hebrews the kingdom is called the Sabbath Rest, it is likened to the 7th day. Scripture says that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day, Scripture says that God worked 6 days and rested on the 7th. Revelation says kingdom will be 1000 years, if that is the 7th day then is implies 6 days prior to it. If a day is as a thousand years and there are 6 days before God rested it seems that there would be 6000 years before the Sabbath Rest that is the millennial kingdom. If you're interested I can give you quotes from some of the early Christians.

Hey Butch,

Thanks for the offer, I have a few books of the early fathers too and I'm in agreement with what you have said, the only problem we have is the fixing of the date of when was the first day of the first millennium, at best all we have is guesstimates so we can't be sure how many days have actually passed since then, also we have to factor in the different calendars that have been used, but we can rest assured Father knows and He will be right on time. PTL

Blessings,

Gene
 
Hey Butch,

Thanks for the offer, I have a few books of the early fathers too and I'm in agreement with what you have said, the only problem we have is the fixing of the date of when was the first day of the first millennium, at best all we have is guesstimates so we can't be sure how many days have actually passed since then, also we have to factor in the different calendars that have been used, but we can rest assured Father knows and He will be right on time. PTL

Blessings,

Gene

Hi Gene,

I agree the that connecting the calendars is a problem. I looked at a Bible chronology that laid out the chronology from the creation to the end of the 6000 year period The idea is that God began a calendar at the beginning of the creation and that it is this calendar that is used to track the 6000 years. Where we have difficulty is connecting that calendar with the one we use today. If most scholars are correct about the timing of the crucifixion we could probably get within the ball park.
 
I said this in another thread:

The problem I see is that everyone picks and chooses based on what they were first taught, or self-taught. But, in all my 36 years as a Christian I have never once heard any sermon that lays out all verses out on the table. Many have tried, many have great ideas, but they still have to leave off a verse or two.

So I throw this out there for you to consider: If all things began in Genesis and all things end in Revelation then it stands to reason that they sort of mirror each other. So let's start at Genesis and see what transpires (I cannot take the credit and the way some react to preacher's names, I'll keep it to myself, but it should be hard to look up)

Gen 8: Dove sent out (Holy Spirit)
Gen 7: Shaking of the earth
Gen 6: Signs of the days of Noah - violence and evil
Gen 5: Rapture of Enoch
Gen 4: Cain and his mark
Gen 3: Defeat of the serpent
Gen 2: Heaven and Earth are perfect
Gen 1: Man walks with God

Seems to me, with all the verses of prophecy about the end times, these are the order of events based on the order from scripture in Genesis:

Outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon ALL flesh - Joel 2:28
Earthquakes in various places - Mat 24:7
As in the days of Noah - violence and evil - Mat 24:37
Rapture of the Church - 1 Thes 4:17(Rev 4:1?)
Mark of the beast - Rev 13:18
Serpent is defeated - Rev 20
Heaven and Earth are perfect - Rev 21
Man walks with God - Rev 22

Just a thought...
 
What's my interpretation of 2 Pet 1:20?

It's not open to interpretation, ...it's fact!

WE don't/can't interpretate Scripture, that's why there is so much false doctrine in the church today, ...the Word is revealed to us, taught to us by the Holy Spirit, that is the reason for, the significance of the New Covenant,

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:31-34

But the anointing (Holy Spirit) which ye have received of him abides in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing (Holy Spirit) teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1Jn_2:27

New Testament doctrine, we don't interpretate the Word, the Holy Spirit teaches us all things through revelation, but if we don't want to receive what He is teaching then He is a gentleman and won't force us to believe, and we lose, continuing on in our deception.

Enoch was a type of the Church, he was raptured before the judgment of God fell on the earth, i.e., the Flood.

Moses struck the Rock twice, Paul tells us the Rock was a type of Christ, on the Cross Father struck His Son, Paul tells us we are in Christ, if the Church is present during the Trib then the wrath of God will strike the Son a second time, which will cause Father to have to apologize to Moses for condemning him, which sets a legal precedent for the devil to demand the same treatment, God being just must concede and voilá, ...we have the devil and the demons with us for all of Eternity, ...is that what you want, more important, is that what the Bible teaches?

Wanna take a look at 2 Thes 2?

Blessings,

Gene

Those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are the ones who have to base their doctrine on verses that do not even talk about the rapture, while ignoring those who clearly talk about the rapture.
 
Those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are the ones who have to base their doctrine on verses that do not even talk about the rapture, while ignoring those who clearly talk about the rapture.

Now THAT"S parroting someone.
 
I thought Albert Barnes' notes on 2 Pet 1:20 was interesting
Is of any private interpretation - The expression here used (ἰδίας ἐπιλύσεως idias epiluseōs) has given rise to as great a diversity of interpretation, and to as much discussion, as perhaps any phrase in the New Testament; and to the present time there is no general agreement among expositors as to its meaning. It would be foreign to the design of these notes, and would be of little utility, to enumerate the different interpretations which have been given of the passage, or to examine them in detail.

It will be sufficient to remark, preparatory to endeavoring to ascertain the true sense of the passage, that some have held that it teaches that no prophecy can be interpreted of itself, but can be understood only by comparing it with the event; others, that it teaches that the prophets did not themselves understand what they wrote, but were mere passive organs under the dictation of the Holy Spirit to communicate to future times what they could not themselves explain; others, that it teaches that “no prophecy is of self-interpretation,” (Horsley and others, that it teaches that the prophecies, besides having a literal signification, have also a hidden and mystical sense which cannot be learned from the prophecies themselves, but is to be perceived by a special power of insight imparted by the Holy Spirit, enabling men to understand their recondite mysteries.

It would be easy to show that some of these opinions are absurd, and that none of them are sustained by the fair interpretation of the language used, and by the drift of the passage. The more correct interpretation, as it seems to me, is that which supposes that the apostle teaches that the truths which the prophets communicated were not originated by themselves; were not of their own suggestion or invention; were not their own opinions, but were of higher origin, and were imparted by God; and according to this the passage may be explained, “knowing this as a point of first importance when you approach the prophecies, or always bearing this in mind, that it is a great principle in regard to the prophets, that what they communicated “was not of their own disclosure;” that is, was not revealed or originated by them.”
Then Barnes goes on for many more paragraphs http://books.google.com/books?id=o8lGAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA229&lpg=PA229#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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In my opinion it clearly says that prophecies are not men's deductions, but God's revelations. 2 Peter 1:20-21.

In context:

1 Peter 1:19-21
19 Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding,21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God.


This is concerning the confidence we can have in the inerrancy of the scriptures.
 
No problem, brother. It is nice to discuss these things, although it will probably require a thread of its own. Doesn't this passage refutes the pre-tribulation rapture?

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

What I understand from the passage above is that "our being gathered to Him" (rapture) won't take place before the arrival of the Antichrist. The post-tribulation stance seems to be based on the verses that follow:

"Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? And you know what currently restrains him so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining it will do so until he is out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved" (2 Thessalonians 2:5-10)

However, this stance seems weak to me because it is based on the assumption that "what currently restrains him" is the presence of the Holy Spirit. However, as far as I know, there is no Biblical basis for this assumption. Moreover, "what currently restrains him" cannot be the presence of the Holy Spirit, since that would contradict what Paul wrote two verses earlier (i.e., that the rapture would not take place until after the arrival of the Antichrist). There are verses that directly refute the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture, for instance:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

I know that some people argue that "his elect" are only the Jewish believers, but in that case there would be two raptures and not one. Furthermore, in the Bible the "elect" are the believers, both Gentiles and Jews. How do you interpret these verses?

Lets see what we can do here.

You stated....
"What I understand from the passage above is that "our being gathered to Him" (rapture) won't take place before the arrival of the Antichrist. "

Actually it is the OPPOSITE my brother. The identity of the A/C will not be revealed until AFTER the Rapture takes place.

Notice with me in 2 Thess. 2:1...
"......by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him".

That is the Rapture.

Now with your Bible open notice the 3rd verse....
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NO COME except there come a falling away first, (Watch this next)
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

That is the process of "Apostasy" which is he process of leaving the Word of God.

THEN the A/C is revealed.

So then it is ......

1. Rapture
2. Apostasy (Falling away)
3. A/C revealed.

Now we have your comment of...........
However, this stance seems weak to me because it is based on the assumption that "what currently restrains him" is the presence of the Holy Spirit. However, as far as I know, there is no Biblical basis for this assumption. Moreover, "what currently restrains him" cannot be the presence of the Holy Spirit, since that would contradict what Paul wrote two verses earlier.

In verse6, the phrase...."And now ye know what withholdeth" in the Greek is literally........."The thing which holds down".
Years ago when I first studied this, I found out that the Greek neuter participle for this is a MASCULINE one. That indicates that what ever it is that holds back evil is "person" more that it would be a thing or situation.

Paul is then saying to us that for the present (Today) there is something that is holding back the appearance of the man of sin who will lead the world in rebellion against God. Now I agree with you in that to know without any question what that SOMETHING is
is hard to do with 100% accuracy.

It may have been the Roman Empire that Paul was talking about.
It may have been the social structure of the law.

However, IMHO there is some really good reason to assume that because of all this and the fact of the Greek participle being masculine pointing to a person, that the withholding is done by the Holy Spirit. HE then is the one who now hinders the work of the Man of Sin.

Now I believe that we all agree that the work of the Holy Spirit is shown best as HE works through the believers in the Church. Now then, the Holy Spirit INDWELLS the heart of all believers who make up the church and the Rapture is the event which removes the church. Therefore the Holy Spirit will leave with the believers at the Rapture leaving the A/C to do as he wishes for the next 7 years.
 
Why do you caution me?

I was not rebuking you my brother. Not at all. I just know that dating can be a real problem and when you said with in the next two decades it just rang a bell.

I did not mean it to be offensive or challenging in any way. Please forgive if it came across that way.
 
Those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are the ones who have to base their doctrine on verses that do not even talk about the rapture, while ignoring those who clearly talk about the rapture.

Hey man, 2 Thes 2 was written to believers that thought they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib, Paul assured them it was not so, so if you don't/can't believe/receive it, ...no worries mate, if you want to go through the Trib and have your head and the heads of your loved ones chopped off, no probelmo on my part, ...what is certain is soon we will all know the Truth of this doctrine.

Like I said, we have already beat this dead horse to death!

Gene
 
Hey man, 2 Thes 2 was written to believers that thought they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib, Paul assured them it was not so, so if you don't/can't believe/receive it, ...no worries mate, if you want to go through the Trib and have your head and the heads of your loved ones chopped off, no probelmo on my part, ...what is certain is soon we will all know the Truth of this doctrine.

Like I said, we have already beat this dead horse to death!

Gene

Man is that ever the truth!!!!
 
Lets see what we can do here.

You stated....
"What I understand from the passage above is that "our being gathered to Him" (rapture) won't take place before the arrival of the Antichrist. "

Actually it is the OPPOSITE my brother. The identity of the A/C will not be revealed until AFTER the Rapture takes place.

Notice with me in 2 Thess. 2:1...
"......by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him".

That is the Rapture.

Now with your Bible open notice the 3rd verse....
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NO COME except there come a falling away first, (Watch this next)
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

That is the process of "Apostasy" which is he process of leaving the Word of God.

THEN the A/C is revealed.

So then it is ......

1. Rapture
2. Apostasy (Falling away)
3. A/C revealed.

Now we have your comment of...........
However, this stance seems weak to me because it is based on the assumption that "what currently restrains him" is the presence of the Holy Spirit. However, as far as I know, there is no Biblical basis for this assumption. Moreover, "what currently restrains him" cannot be the presence of the Holy Spirit, since that would contradict what Paul wrote two verses earlier.

In verse6, the phrase...."And now ye know what withholdeth" in the Greek is literally........."The thing which holds down".
Years ago when I first studied this, I found out that the Greek neuter participle for this is a MASCULINE one. That indicates that what ever it is that holds back evil is "person" more that it would be a thing or situation.

Paul is then saying to us that for the present (Today) there is something that is holding back the appearance of the man of sin who will lead the world in rebellion against God. Now I agree with you in that to know without any question what that SOMETHING is
is hard to do with 100% accuracy.

It may have been the Roman Empire that Paul was talking about.
It may have been the social structure of the law.

However, IMHO there is some really good reason to assume that because of all this and the fact of the Greek participle being masculine pointing to a person, that the withholding is done by the Holy Spirit. HE then is the one who now hinders the work of the Man of Sin.

Now I believe that we all agree that the work of the Holy Spirit is shown best as HE works through the believers in the Church. Now then, the Holy Spirit INDWELLS the heart of all believers who make up the church and the Rapture is the event which removes the church. Therefore the Holy Spirit will leave with the believers at the Rapture leaving the A/C to do as he wishes for the next 7 years.

Thanks for your very complete answer. However, you must admit that a plain reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 contradicts the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture. I won't post the verses here again, but notice that Paul is talking about the "day of the Lord" which he defines in this same passage as "his coming and our gathering to him". He plainly says that this day will not come until after the arrival of the Antichrist.

The whole idea of a pre-tribulation rapture hinges on indirect and unclear allusions, like the identity of "what currently restrains him". Only by relying on this weak evidence and by assuming that the clear and direct information about the rapture (Matthew 24) refers only to the nation of Israel, we arrive to the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.
 
Hey man, 2 Thes 2 was written to believers that thought they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib, Paul assured them it was not so, so if you don't/can't believe/receive it, ...no worries mate, if you want to go through the Trib and have your head and the heads of your loved ones chopped off, no probelmo on my part, ...what is certain is soon we will all know the Truth of this doctrine.

Like I said, we have already beat this dead horse to death!

Gene

If they thought they had missed the rapture, the very letter sent by Paul would had been sufficient to show them the truth, since Paul's presence in this world clearly proved that the rapture hadn't taken place. We don't have to wait for the rapture to know when the rapture will take place. Just read Matthew 24 and accept its plain meaning.

Regarding the beheading of believers, just turn on the TV and you'll see that it is taking place right now. Jesus never promised to have us delivered from the persecutions. Persecutions are part of our Christian life and any doctrine who deceives you into believing that this is not the case, is not Biblical.
 
Thanks for your very complete answer. However, you must admit that a plain reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 contradicts the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture. I won't post the verses here again, but notice that Paul is talking about the "day of the Lord" which he defines in this same passage as "his coming and our gathering to him". He plainly says that this day will not come until after the arrival of the Antichrist.

The whole idea of a pre-tribulation rapture hinges on indirect and unclear allusions, like the identity of "what currently restrains him". Only by relying on this weak evidence and by assuming that the clear and direct information about the rapture (Matthew 24) refers only to the nation of Israel, we arrive to the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.

I don't think that is the case my brother. When I read those verses, I am convinced that the A/C will not come until AFTER the Rapture. In fact it is the only logical explanation that makes any sense.

IF the church..YOU and I were alive and saw a man standing in the temple in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God, what would we do???

We would cry at the top of our voices that this is the ANTI-CHRIST!!! The words in verse #3 say that the man of sin is REVEALED.

That implies that he existed before the time of his revelation or appearance.

1 John 2:18 tells us that there were already many anti-christs, in the sense of people who are against Christ, existing in his day.
It is still uncertain who this person will be, but the identification of the Man of Sin with the coming of the Antichrist of Revelation is the most logical explanation.
 
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