The Dangers Of The Pre-tribulation Rapture Doctrine.

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Gene, the Bible tells us that the Antichrist will try to deceive the elect (Matthew 24:24). You say that the elect are led by the Holy Spirit and protected by it. I wholeheartedly agree with this. However, you also state that the Holy Spirit will not be present during the reign of the Antichrist. So, how does this make sense? Will the Holy Spirit abandon his elect, despite what the Scripture says Matthew 28:20, John 14:16, Ephesians 4:30?
It does not say "anti-Christ" as in one, but represents a spirit that works in many.
 
The spirit of anti-Christ was already at work in the time John wrote his gospels and epistles....this "spirit" has been at work every since and is not confined to one man or being..although they may be a manifest man in the end that has this spirit and brings the fulfillment of certain scriptures.

Yes, that's true.
 
I only know what God has revealed to me and a part of that is that I will be here for (at least) the start of the tribulation, if not all - I have "seen" the end times and the victory at the end. I am not "left behind" for lack of love of God/Christ. The Lord knows I have sinned and that I try not to sin any more. It is only recently that I have thought maybe I had died first because during the dreams/visions, I was alive so maybe I died first . If my "revelations" are wrong, I'm just as happy because my faith precludes going anywhere but to the embrace of my maker. I will be where ever God wants me but I also know where I will end up. If God wants us all saved - don't you think He will leave his best warriors on the ground to help those who can still be saved?
 
I only know what God has revealed to me and a part of that is that I will be here for (at least) the start of the tribulation, if not all - I have "seen" the end times and the victory at the end. I am not "left behind" for lack of love of God/Christ. The Lord knows I have sinned and that I try not to sin any more. It is only recently that I have thought maybe I had died first because during the dreams/visions, I was alive so maybe I died first . If my "revelations" are wrong, I'm just as happy because my faith precludes going anywhere but to the embrace of my maker. I will be where ever God wants me but I also know where I will end up. If God wants us all saved - don't you think He will leave his best warriors on the ground to help those who can still be saved?

In your visions you were here during the Tribulation? Your visions interests me greatly. Could you please share these visions with us (you can also send them to me by private message, if you feel more comfortable with this option)? Thanks!
 
Gene, the Bible tells us that the Antichrist will try to deceive the elect (Matthew 24:24). You say that the elect are led by the Holy Spirit and protected by it. I wholeheartedly agree with this. However, you also state that the Holy Spirit will not be present during the reign of the Antichrist. So, how does this make sense? Will the Holy Spirit abandon his elect, despite what the Scripture says Matthew 28:20, John 14:16, Ephesians 4:30?


Therein lies the problem, you see it, but you can't believe/receive, that's deception, the only logical answer is the elect can NOT the Church.

There are three groups of people called the elect in the Word,

1. Israel is called the elect of God,
2. the Church is called the elect of God
3. those that are saved during the Trib are the elect of God

You need to study what elect actually means.

Also we need to understand deception,

1. there are born again believers that are subject to deception, they waver on the subject, not really sure what is true, ...they just haven't had a revelation from the Holy Spirit as to what is the Truth, they will either believe/receive the Truth or fall into the next group
2.. there are believers that are deceived, Paul says they have fallen into the snare of the devil, they are saved, but will not have many rewards in Eternity
3.and there are non-believers that are deceived, these fall into two different categories,
a. those that are the tares in the Church, that have heard the Gospel, but for some reason have refused to believe/receive it
b. those that have never heard the true Gospel, these are those in the cults and false religions of the world

As stated in my last post, those in subgroup a are damned, those in subgroup b will be the saints that come out of the Trib.

Gene
 
Therein lies the problem, you see it, but you can't believe/receive, that's deception, the only logical answer is the elect can NOT the Church.

There are three groups of people called the elect in the Word,

1. Israel is called the elect of God,
2. the Church is called the elect of God
3. those that are saved during the Trib are the elect of God

You need to study what elect actually means.

Also we need to understand deception,

1. there are born again believers that are subject to deception, they waver on the subject, not really sure what is true, ...they just haven't had a revelation from the Holy Spirit as to what is the Truth, they will either believe/receive the Truth or fall into the next group
2.. there are believers that are deceived, Paul says they have fallen into the snare of the devil, they are saved, but will not have many rewards in Eternity
3.and there are non-believers that are deceived, these fall into two different categories,
a. those that are the tares in the Church, that have heard the Gospel, but for some reason have refused to believe/receive it
b. those that have never heard the true Gospel, these are those in the cults and false religions of the world

As stated in my last post, those in subgroup a are damned, those in subgroup b will be the saints that come out of the Trib.

Gene

And how will the Saints in group b come to know Christ? Remember that what convicts the world of sin (John 16:8) and leads to all truth (John 16:13) is the Holy Spirit, and according to your theory the Holy Spirit will not be here during the Tribulation.
 
It also says that even some of the "elect" will be deceived and who are these elect if they are all raptured? The problem of stating categorically that the pre-trib rapture will happen has terrible consequences for believers if it does not happen, whereas hoping for it but not basing your entire faith on it, leaves you unshaken and firm. The warning remains valid. In this case, I want to be wrong but your interpetation of scripture is not what is written. It is NOT clearly stated as such.

There are no terrible consequences to believing that the Bridegroom will come for His Bride and take her to his home he has prepared for her. What is going to happen is going to follow to a tee the ancient Hebrew custom of marriage, where the Bridegroom establishes the wedding covenant, in choosing his bride and paying for her. He leaves her for a time to prepare a place for her, and then returns, unannounced and usually at night for her and whisks her off to that home. The bride never knew when her betrothed would come, but was always waiting and watching.

It was customary that during the seven days of the wedding feast, the bride and groom remained hidden in the bridal chamber (reference to the custom: Genesis 29:21-23, 27-28) for the seven days of the huppah. Afterwards, the groom would come out of hiding bringing his bride with him, but with her veil removed so that everyone could see her.

The New Testament portrays the Church as the Bride of Christ in Ephesians 5:22-33 (Paul even quotes Genesis 2:24 as the union at the Parousia of the Bridegroom in v.31!); See also Romans 7:4; 2 Corinthians 11:2; James 4:4. In the opening verses of John 14, the marriage covenant is confirmed. Paul continually reminds us of the purchase price and the covenant by which we, the Bride, are set apart, or sanctified.
 
I had a "mini series" dream when I was 17 (?) (Now age 62) before they had Roots (or any other mini series on TV). We had 4 stations then and no cable. I kept waking up because I was so terrified but I went right back to the same dream. So it's a long dream. It started with terrible weather: hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, hail. There was looting, assaults and murders, all over. I went home and watched with my mother (dead now) the antichrist/Satan being interviewed on the white portable (were no such then) The interviewer was talking to him like he was human/celebrity which he clearly was not. His eyes were like pits. Hard to describe but he was grey (sooty). He looked scary to me, so I got up to change the channel (no remotes). All the channels, not just 4, had him on. I left it on CNN, which didn't exist then. Back then when I told my mother the dream, we tried to figure out what CNN meant and discarded Christian News Network because we couldn't fathom having the devil interviewed by any Christians. The dream is too long to describe here but towards the end, I was walking (well crawling and hiding) back home. There was no sun and moon or stars. You could see but it was grey and darkish. There were, spaced miles apart - Giants that had on white togas, sandals laced to the knee, and they were "chastising" great groups of people. I was hiding from them because I knew that they had every reason to chastise me. The one who saw me let me go. I got home and everything was ok again - sun moon etc. I have had others but briefly, that was the 1st. My mother, who gave me my great faith, interpeted it.
 
Thanks for your post, brother, but please notice that the event mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the same event mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6. This latter event is the resurrection of all the Saints and it explicitly includes the Saints that went through the Great Tribulation. Hence, the first resurrection and the rapture must take place after the Tribulation and not before it.

Not so my brother. Some has given you some very erroneous teaching.

Rev. 20 is 1000 years later after the Tribulation and Armageddon and the 1000 year reign of the Lord Jesus on the earth so there is no way it can be the same passage.

Then notice Rev. 19 where the Lord Jesus actually comes at the 2nd Coming. The saints who live through the Tribulation will stay on the earth. They will not be involved in the Bride at all.

Then notice the passage in 2 Thess 4:15.......
"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,"

IF the passage was the same event of Rev. 20, how in the world could those people still be waiting on the coming of the Lord as He had already come in chapter 19??????
 
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You don't have to be an expert, Lance. Anyone who knows just a little bit about the history of Christianity knows that martyrdom is an essential part of being a Christian. Furthermore, our martyrdom is exactly what Christ foretold before his ascension. We are lucky to be living in places in which we can profess our faith freely, but a great number of Christians don't have that advantage.

Not so my brother, not so! Yes, there have been some who have died for the faith but that is not part of the Christian process. It was the days in which they lived.

Jesus died for us so that we could live.
 
Therein lies the problem, you see it, but you can't believe/receive, that's deception, the only logical answer is the elect can NOT the Church.

There are three groups of people called the elect in the Word,

1. Israel is called the elect of God,
2. the Church is called the elect of God
3. those that are saved during the Trib are the elect of God

You need to study what elect actually means.

Also we need to understand deception,

1. there are born again believers that are subject to deception, they waver on the subject, not really sure what is true, ...they just haven't had a revelation from the Holy Spirit as to what is the Truth, they will either believe/receive the Truth or fall into the next group
2.. there are believers that are deceived, Paul says they have fallen into the snare of the devil, they are saved, but will not have many rewards in Eternity
3.and there are non-believers that are deceived, these fall into two different categories,
a. those that are the tares in the Church, that have heard the Gospel, but for some reason have refused to believe/receive it
b. those that have never heard the true Gospel, these are those in the cults and false religions of the world

As stated in my last post, those in subgroup a are damned, those in subgroup b will be the saints that come out of the Trib.

Gene

This is good stuff! Correct stuff.

SergioL, as Gene just said, the answer is right there in front of you my brother.

You even asked........."So, how does this make sense? Will the Holy Spirit abandon his elect".

NO! He does not abandon the church of believers, He leaves with them when they are Raptured. It is the only way it can be.
The Holy Spirit lives in our hearts so He has to go where we go and we are leaving this earth and going to heaven for a wedding
and the Holy Spirit is going to be the BEST MAN!!!!

Praise the Lord, may it be today!
 
I only know what God has revealed to me and a part of that is that I will be here for (at least) the start of the tribulation, if not all - I have "seen" the end times and the victory at the end. I am not "left behind" for lack of love of God/Christ. The Lord knows I have sinned and that I try not to sin any more. It is only recently that I have thought maybe I had died first because during the dreams/visions, I was alive so maybe I died first . If my "revelations" are wrong, I'm just as happy because my faith precludes going anywhere but to the embrace of my maker. I will be where ever God wants me but I also know where I will end up. If God wants us all saved - don't you think He will leave his best warriors on the ground to help those who can still be saved?

My dear sister, truth is not found in visions and dreams. IF your visions are different than God's written Word then yes, they are wrong. Truth is only found in the Word of God.
 
I had a "mini series" dream when I was 17 (?) (Now age 62) before they had Roots (or any other mini series on TV). We had 4 stations then and no cable. I kept waking up because I was so terrified but I went right back to the same dream. So it's a long dream. It started with terrible weather: hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, hail. There was looting, assaults and murders, all over. I went home and watched with my mother (dead now) the antichrist/Satan being interviewed on the white portable (were no such then) The interviewer was talking to him like he was human/celebrity which he clearly was not. His eyes were like pits. Hard to describe but he was grey (sooty). He looked scary to me, so I got up to change the channel (no remotes). All the channels, not just 4, had him on. I left it on CNN, which didn't exist then. Back then when I told my mother the dream, we tried to figure out what CNN meant and discarded Christian News Network because we couldn't fathom having the devil interviewed by any Christians. The dream is too long to describe here but towards the end, I was walking (well crawling and hiding) back home. There was no sun and moon or stars. You could see but it was grey and darkish. There were, spaced miles apart - Giants that had on white togas, sandals laced to the knee, and they were "chastising" great groups of people. I was hiding from them because I knew that they had every reason to chastise me. The one who saw me let me go. I got home and everything was ok again - sun moon etc. I have had others but briefly, that was the 1st. My mother, who gave me my great faith, interpeted it.

Thanks, it is very interesting!
 
Not so my brother. Some has given you some very erroneous teaching.

Rev. 20 is 1000 years later after the Tribulation and Armageddon and the 1000 year reign of the Lord Jesus on the earth so there is no way it can be the same passage.

Then notice Rev. 19 where the Lord Jesus actually comes at the 2nd Coming. The saints who live through the Tribulation will stay on the earth. They will not be involved in the Bride at all.

Then notice the passage in 2 Thess 4:15.......
"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,"

IF the passage was the same event of Rev. 20, how in the world could those people still be waiting on the coming of the Lord as He had already come in chapter 19??????

It seems to me that you are assuming that the events of the book of Revelation are narrated in strict chronological order. There's no reason to make that assumption. Also, notice that the rapture is preceded by a resurrection event (2 Thessalonians 4). This resurrection is undoubtedly the first resurrection, which is also mentioned in Revelation 20 (and which explicitly includes those who went through the Great Tribulation). I know that we are not going to agree on this topic, but I believe that it is important to challenge this doctrine because it will lead to disastrous consequences if it is found to be false which, in my opinion, is the case.
 
None of my dreams/visions or conversation disagrees with the Word of God - however your interpetations of the Word may disagree. God has been giving dreams and visions to people throughout scripture. As already stated - I hope there is a pretrib rapture - there is no convincing scripture to that effect. No word "rapture" in scripture. It is an idea that took root in the 1800's, with a Pastor who kept changing the date of Christ's second coming and made lots of $$$ being wrong. I will say again - I hope you are right in your interpetation. Christ comes only once for the second coming - not once for the rapture and once for for His millenial kingdom. And if all who are raptured with Christ, don't go with Him to the Millenial Kingdom, where do you expect they go for a 1,000 years? We can only enter heaven as part of the body of Christ
I am all for a pretrib rapture and saying you know better doesn't confirm for me that it is part of God's plan. To say maybe it isn't - is NOT a misleader or meant to frighten anyone. To say so implies that salvation is dependant on belief in pretrib.
 
And how will the Saints in group b come to know Christ? Remember that what convicts the world of sin (John 16:8) and leads to all truth (John 16:13) is the Holy Spirit, and according to your theory the Holy Spirit will not be here during the Tribulation.


Sorry friend, that's according to your theory, if what you are saying is true, that the Holy Spirit can't be active in the saving of souls after the Rapture of the Church, so then He wasn't active in the saving of souls before the Church age, ...that is the entire 4000 years of the Old Testament, ...do you see how ludicrous your rational is?

I'll say this again, what you are saying didn't come from the Holy Spirit, someone had to teach that to you, because from just reading the Word you would never come up with this false doctrine, you need to stop and seriously ask yourself, "where did I learn this, who taught it to me, and I'm I deceived?"

What do you have to lose and why are you hanging on to it so tight, what are you afraid of, those are the real questions that need to be answered.

In His Love,

Gene
 
None of my dreams/visions or conversation disagrees with the Word of God - however your interpetations of the Word may disagree. God has been giving dreams and visions to people throughout scripture. As already stated - I hope there is a pretrib rapture - there is no convincing scripture to that effect. No word "rapture" in scripture. It is an idea that took root in the 1800's, with a Pastor who kept changing the date of Christ's second coming and made lots of $$$ being wrong. I will say again - I hope you are right in your interpetation. Christ comes only once for the second coming - not once for the rapture and once for for His millenial kingdom. And if all who are raptured with Christ, don't go with Him to the Millenial Kingdom, where do you expect they go for a 1,000 years? We can only enter heaven as part of the body of Christ
I am all for a pretrib rapture and saying you know better doesn't confirm for me that it is part of God's plan. To say maybe it isn't - is NOT a misleader or meant to frighten anyone. To say so implies that salvation is dependant on belief in pretrib.


Dear one, please tell me why Paul wrote the letter to the Thessalonians, especially 2 Thes 2.

Also, please take the time to study these two verses, 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16 and what are the two purposes of the Trumpet of God according to Num 10:2, has the first Trumpet sounded and if so when, if the Trumpet has sounded once, what is the signification of it being blow the second time and how does that correspond to the two New Testament verses I gave you?

I don't want to give you the answers dear one, but rather let the Holy Spirit speak to you, that way you will own it and it hasn't come from me.

Luv ya sis,

Gene
 
It seems to me that you are assuming that the events of the book of Revelation are narrated in strict chronological order. There's no reason to make that assumption. Also, notice that the rapture is preceded by a resurrection event (). This resurrection is undoubtedly the first resurrection, which is also mentioned in (and which explicitly includes those who went through the Great Tribulation). I know that we are not going to agree on this topic, but I believe that it is important to challenge this doctrine because it will lead to disastrous consequences if it is found to be false which, in my opinion, is the case.

You can challenge anything you like, but you have to be biblical about it.

Tell me, what is so disastrous about what you think is a heresy (which isn't!)? It seems to me after discussing these matters for years, it is ONLY those who deny the pre-Tribulational rapture that pronounce dire unknown consequences and even declare Christians who believe it to be heading for condemnation.

There is no condemnation in those who are in Christ.
 
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