The Dangers Of The Pre-tribulation Rapture Doctrine.

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When do the Trib saints reign with Christ? During the Millennium, but Rev 7:14, 15 says they will live with Christ in New Jerusalem, not reign on the Earth for all of Eternity , their reign is limited to 1000 years, whereas the Church will reign for Eternity, why can't you see that, you say we are deluded, but you can't read what is plainly written in the Word, and I say that in Love, seriously, open your eyes!

I'm not making this stuff up to fit an agenda like you are, I'm just pointing out what is written in Scripture.

Gene

Read the passage again (Revelation 20:4-6), those who reign with Christ are the ones who are resurrected in the first resurrection (immediately prior to the rapture) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). All Christians will be resurrected at this moment (except for those that will be transformed) and will be priests of God and will reign with him over the Earth. Then the Earth will be destroyed (2 Peter 3:10-11, Revelation 21:1) and all the Saints will live with Jesus in the New Jerusalem.
 
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Who are they, then?
So simple: 144,000 male virgin Jews who have accepted Christ and those that listen to their preaching. God always has a remnant.

Revelation 7:4 (KJV)
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV)
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
 
So simple: 144,000 male virgin Jews who have accepted Christ and those that listen to their preaching. God always has a remnant.

Revelation 7:4 (KJV)
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV)
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

They are only part of the Saints of the latter days. Read Revelation 7:9-10 and Revelation 7:13-14.
 
The truth is that people are dying for Christ in this very moment. Jesus said Matthew 16:25. All Christians must be prepared to die for their faith.
That passage is a reference to being crucified with Christ and dying to the "old" man... dying to the deception that we decide what is right and wrong and trust in God alone as righteous.
 
That passage is a reference to being crucified with Christ and dying to the "old" man... dying to the deception that we decide what is right and wrong and trust in God alone as righteous.

Tell that to all the Christian martyrs who gave their life for their faith. I believe that present-day Egyptian and Syrian Christians will raise some objections, though.
 
Tell that to all the Christian martyrs who gave their life for their faith. I believe that present-day Egyptian and Syrian Christians will raise some objections, though.
That don't mean that scripture means ALL believers must be martyrs. That scripture means what I said it means and a believer who has really been crucified with Christ to the "old" man will if need be, make any sacrifice. Your ability to take a scripture out of context and make it mean anything you want it to mean is amazing! These people who are dying as "Christians" are not all saints...religion of man, has wars all the time. A saint is filled with the Holy Spirit of God. These people and others, believe the Holy Spirit is in a can on the end of a stick they wave around and ARE NOT true martyrs.
 
Tell that to all the Christian martyrs who gave their life for their faith. I believe that present-day Egyptian and Syrian Christians will raise some objections, though.
Mitspa wasn't taking away from what they did. He was just explaining the scripture to you. And you are an expert on how these Christian martyrs interpret this passage of scripture?
 
They are only part of the Saints of the latter days. Read Revelation 7:9-10 and Revelation 7:13-14.
Well I've answered your question, but since it doesn't fit your dogma, you reject it. Live with it. I'm done listening to those that want to be punished by God and rob people of hope.

Job 8:13-14 (KJV)
So [are] the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish: Whose hope shall be cut off, and whose trust [shall be] a spider's web.
 
The doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is supported by the vast majority of Christians. However, there are valid reasons to question the Biblical origins of this doctrine, since a straightforward reading of the verses about the latter days seems to suggest a post-tribulation rapture. However, the objective of this thread is not to discuss the validity of the pre-tribulation doctrine, but to point out its dangers. Let's assume for a moment that the pre-tribulation rapture does not take place. That would mean that the church will enter the Great Tribulation both discouraged and confused. However, the dangers of believing in a pre-tribulation rapture do not end there. Far from it, they just begin at that point.

The real danger of believing in a pre-tribulation rapture lies in the nature of the Antichrist and the False Prophet. According to my understanding of the Bible, it is likely that one of these figures will claim to be the Christ. Hence, during the Great Tribulation Christians will be in danger of believing that either the Antichrist or the False Prophet is Jesus coming to reign over the face of the Earth (the start of the millennium). Until now all of this may seem like science fiction, but the fact is that this is exactly what Islamic eschatology tells us about the end of times. Islamic eschatology is incredibly similar to Christian eschatology, but turned upside down. The Islamic Messiah (the Mahdi = the Biblical Antichrist) is supposed to conquer Israel and rule over it for seven years. His second in command will be the Islamic Jesus (Isa = the Biblical False Prophet) who will mark the foreheads of the Muslims and behead the enemies of the Mahdi. Both the Mahdi and Isa will fight against the Islamic Antichrist (Dajjal = the real Jesus) who will defend the Jews. To summarize, the real danger of a pre-tribulation doctrine is that it exposes the church to the deceptions of the False Prophet (the Islamic Jesus). Here you have some info about these characters:

Isa: Contrary to the Christian belief regarding Jesus, according to Islam, Isa was never crucified, was not the Son of God, was not divine, never experienced death, and was only a human prophet. The expected return of Isa is not remotely similar to what Christians expect with the return of Jesus. Instead, the character and actions of Isa are far more similar to the false prophet mentioned in Revelation. A Brief Summary of Isa's Future Accomplishments 1). He will be subordinate to the Mahdi. 2). Directs all attention off of himself and onto the Mahdi. 3). A devout Muslim. 4). Institutes Islamic Sharia Law. 5). Acts as a Muslim evangelist. 6). Abolishes Christianity. 7). Kills the Dajjal as well as his Jewish followers. 8). Persecute Christians and Jews and forces them to convert or face death. 9). Remains on earth approximately four years. 10). Marries and eventually dies.

Mahdi: We will be going over the prophecies pertaining to him in depth right after this post and compare them to the prophecies of the Antichrist but here is a brief list of some of the things he is expected to accomplish. If you are familiar with the Antichrist prophecies, some of the below may surprise you and you will be able to spot some of the similarities immediately: 1). Become the universal leader for all Muslims. 2). Will rule the non-Muslim world as well. 3). Conquer Israel. 4). Have his headquarters in Jerusalem. 5). Will make a seven year peace treaty with Israel. 6). Will rule for seven years (or possibly 8-9). 7). Discover the ark of the covenant and ancient biblical texts. 8). Cause only Islam to be the practiced religion. 9). Distribute wealth to the populace. 10). Be a powerful and unprecedented military and political leader. 11). Be given supernatural power from Allah over nature. 12). Arrive on the scene after a period of great turmoil. 13). Establish a new world order/government. 14). Will wage war against Jews and Christians.

In all Christian love, I can not agree with your comment of...........

" However, there are valid reasons to question the Biblical origins of this doctrine, since a straightforward reading of the verses about the latter days seems to suggest a post-tribulation rapture".

1 Thess. 4:15-17...........
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Notice that Paul writes that Christ will return in the clouds to take his Church to heaven to be with Him. It doesn't mention any other actions being taken by Christ at this time.

2Thess 2:1.............
" Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him".

2Thess 2:3..........
" Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [tribulation--the day of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostacy--or departure (some assume this means departure from the faith, but it can also mean departure from the earth, as in rapture)] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".

Now, if they were troubled that the rapture had passed, Paul is assuring the Church that they didn't miss anything, saying that that the tribulation that they feared is preceeded by several important key events: First, the rapture, which reveals the antichrist.

2Thess 2:4.........
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Who doesn't even sit in the temple until 3.5 years into the tribulation... See Rev (which they didn't know at the time)-- But this is why this point, of the AntiChrist being revealed after the rapture--who goes on to sit in the temple, is proof that they hadn't missed the rapture. There is no antichrist revealed yet.

2Thess 2:7......
" For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. "

The Holy Spirit is the "He" who letteth will let and will be taken out of the way. That is, whatsoever we bound on earth will be bound in heaven. And once we are removed/raptured, the Holy Spirit leaves with the believers and then the AntiChrist will have the freedom to fulfill his plans. After all, the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church; (Mat 16:18), and the Church is not destined for wrath.
 
Well I've answered your question, but since it doesn't fit your dogma, you reject it. Live with it. I'm done listening to those that want to be punished by God and rob people of hope.

Job 8:13-14 (KJV)
So [are] the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish: Whose hope shall be cut off, and whose trust [shall be] a spider's web.

It is not my dogma, it is written in the same chapter that you mentioned. I don't even have to interpret anything, since it is clearly written there all by itself.
 
That don't mean that scripture means ALL believers must be martyrs. That scripture means what I said it means and a believer who has really been crucified with Christ to the "old" man will if need be, make any sacrifice. Your ability to take a scripture out of context and make it mean anything you want it to mean is amazing! These people who are dying as "Christians" are not all saints...religion of man, has wars all the time. A saint is filled with the Holy Spirit of God. These people and others, believe the Holy Spirit is in a can on the end of a stick they wave around and ARE NOT true martyrs.

So, in your opinion, Christians are not meant to suffer persecutions and martyrdom? If we are faithful, will we be spared from all these things?
 
Mitspa wasn't taking away from what they did. He was just explaining the scripture to you. And you are an expert on how these Christian martyrs interpret this passage of scripture?

You don't have to be an expert, Lance. Anyone who knows just a little bit about the history of Christianity knows that martyrdom is an essential part of being a Christian. Furthermore, our martyrdom is exactly what Christ foretold before his ascension. We are lucky to be living in places in which we can profess our faith freely, but a great number of Christians don't have that advantage.
 
You don't have to be an expert, Lance. Anyone who knows just a little bit about the history of Christianity knows that martyrdom is an essential part of being a Christian. Furthermore, our martyrdom is exactly what Christ foretold before his ascension. We are lucky to be living in places in which we can profess our faith freely, but a great number of Christians don't have that advantage.
You were associating a passage of scripture with what some Christians who have died believed. How do you know this? You can't possibly know what someone else believed on a verse.
 
So, in your opinion, Christians are not meant to suffer persecutions and martyrdom? If we are faithful, will we be spared from all these things?
Did I say that? No! But dying in the name of religion is as common as watching the news, and means nothing! Being a saint of God is a victories thing and a true saint of God lays down there life, if need be!
 
You don't have to be an expert, Lance. Anyone who knows just a little bit about the history of Christianity knows that martyrdom is an essential part of being a Christian. Furthermore, our martyrdom is exactly what Christ foretold before his ascension. We are lucky to be living in places in which we can profess our faith freely, but a great number of Christians don't have that advantage.
Christianity is losing ones own life. We can not be a follower of Christ unless we forsake all that we have, even our own life. All those who live Godly will suffer persecution, no matter before the trib or during.
 
In all Christian love, I can not agree with your comment of...........

" However, there are valid reasons to question the Biblical origins of this doctrine, since a straightforward reading of the verses about the latter days seems to suggest a post-tribulation rapture".

1 Thess. 4:15-17...........
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Notice that Paul writes that Christ will return in the clouds to take his Church to heaven to be with Him. It doesn't mention any other actions being taken by Christ at this time.

2Thess 2:1.............
" Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him".

2Thess 2:3..........
" Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [tribulation--the day of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostacy--or departure (some assume this means departure from the faith, but it can also mean departure from the earth, as in rapture)] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".

Now, if they were troubled that the rapture had passed, Paul is assuring the Church that they didn't miss anything, saying that that the tribulation that they feared is preceeded by several important key events: First, the rapture, which reveals the antichrist.

2Thess 2:4.........
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Who doesn't even sit in the temple until 3.5 years into the tribulation... See Rev (which they didn't know at the time)-- But this is why this point, of the AntiChrist being revealed after the rapture--who goes on to sit in the temple, is proof that they hadn't missed the rapture. There is no antichrist revealed yet.

2Thess 2:7......
" For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. "

The Holy Spirit is the "He" who letteth will let and will be taken out of the way. That is, whatsoever we bound on earth will be bound in heaven. And once we are removed/raptured, the Holy Spirit leaves with the believers and then the AntiChrist will have the freedom to fulfill his plans. After all, the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church; (Mat 16:18), and the Church is not destined for wrath.

Thanks for your post, brother, but please notice that the event mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the same event mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6. This latter event is the resurrection of all the Saints and it explicitly includes the Saints that went through the Great Tribulation. Hence, the first resurrection and the rapture must take place after the Tribulation and not before it.
 
You don't have to be an expert, Lance. Anyone who knows just a little bit about the history of Christianity knows that martyrdom is an essential part of being a Christian. Furthermore, our martyrdom is exactly what Christ foretold before his ascension. We are lucky to be living in places in which we can profess our faith freely, but a great number of Christians don't have that advantage.
Hey...you do understand that you should practice what you preach right? Tell us when and where you plan to lay down your own life and then we might listen to your thoughts on this issue.
 
Did I say that? No! But dying in the name of religion is as common as watching the news, and means nothing! Being a saint of God is a victories thing and a true saint of God lays down there life, if need be!

Exactly, I agree with you. Dying for our faith is a victory and not a defeat. The Church must not put its hopes on being spared from the persecutions, but on being prepared for them.
 
Hey...you do understand that you should practice what you preach right? Tell us when and where you plan to lay down your own life and then we might listen to your thoughts on this issue.

I am not an Islamic suicide bomber. With the strength that God can give I will lay down my life for Christ if necessary, but I am not suicidal.
 
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