The Church Has Replaced Israel?

This came to mind today; Jesus says:

Matthew 21:
23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.*
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.


*The Pharisees (Jewish Establishment) condemn themselves. (sound familiar? 'by your own words are you judged')


It's all about the Spirit-not the 'bloodline'. As Major pointed out, God is not 'done with the Jews' yet....
 
Isaiah 5:
1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
8 Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!
....
12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands.
....
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:

Jeremiah 5:
21 What wilt thou say when he shall punish thee? for thou hast taught them to be captains, and as chief over thee: shall not sorrows take thee, as a woman in travail?
22 And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare.
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
24 Therefore will I scatter them as the stubble that passeth away by the wind of the wilderness.
25 This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the Lord; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.
26 Therefore will I discover thy skirts upon thy face, that thy shame may appear.
27 I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?

Matthew 5:
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
 
I find it interesting that Christ lived and walked among the poor, sick, nobody-outcasts. He went to them...Anytime anyone with wealth or stature got a miracle or blessing-they sought out Christ.... ('seek my face')

Christ opposed elitism hypocrisy by His actions-proven over, and over, and over, and over and over, and over........

But yet still today some 2000 years later-elitists still rule over man-made religion, government, corporations, etc....

And yet the 'winds of doctrine' still fill the sails of those of us who have not yet thrown their face down to the ground before the LORD. I think I need to go pray for some humility. Forgive me.
 
I think so few realize that we are in spiritual deterioration in an exponential downward spiral. The only thing keeping this mess afloat is the Power of the Lord. We all need to pray for mercy-for the saved and unsaved.

The sheep are hungry, but so few are ready to feed them. We are having another soul winning blitz tomorrow in our village. Our Pastor calls them 'Super Saturdays'. I need to pray for open hearts and minds-off to bed in a 'tick'. Say howdy to ken...

http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/gday.34883/#post-281258
 
Maybe we should look at the whole chapter :)

Romans 11.....

Israel’s Rejection Not Total

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.” And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.”


Israel’s Rejection Not Final

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!“For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?” “Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?” For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen"
 
There is only one way to be saved, which is through Jesus. Salvation is offered to all who believe in Jesus as savior. When born again we become part of the body of Christ and of the same Spirit. Just like God chose us from the foundation of the world and the lost are being saved daily through Jesus, God has chosen a remnant to save in the last days, because He is faithful. Scripture says He will pour out a Spirit of grace on the House of David in the last days. During much tribulation the remnant will come to believe in Jesus. To say God is finished with Israel is to call Him a liar and breaker of promises.

Matthew 23:39: "...you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” - a precondition of Christ's second coming

Hosea 5:15: "I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” - another precondition of Christ's second coming

Zech 12:10: "It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem......And I will pour on the house of David (Israel) and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn"
 
God has turned none away as far as 'peoples' go, it is we that reject Him. As a 'People'; if your not currently following Christ as the Son of God & Messiah-well then your doomed to Hell, what difference does the 'bloodline' make?

Jews NEED witnessing too.....

Christ DID come and the Jews rejected Him....how much more 'poured out grace' do you want. He 'poured' out His blood for them too...
 
Dirtyrottensinner said:
God has turned none away as far as 'peoples' go, it is we that reject Him. As a 'People'; if your not currently following Christ as the Son of God & Messiah-well then your doomed to Hell, what difference does the 'bloodline' make?

Jews NEED witnessing too.....

Christ DID come and the Jews rejected Him....how much more 'poured out grace' do you want. He 'poured' out His blood for them too...
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Of course He did and it was to the Jew that salvation was presented to first.

That is not in question DRS, & Rusty.

It is because of their rejection of Christ that God turned to the Gentiles and offered that same salvation.

We are all agreed on that!

The Bible truth however just as Katy expounded...........says that God is not finished with Israel and the Church has not replace Israel.

IMO we have beat this to death and there does not seem to be anyone who is going to change their mind.
I believe we need to move on to something else...............but that is just me!
I mean, hoe many ways are there to say the same thing?
 
Rusty said:
That is what humans say, Silk and that changes with politics and historical circumstances...blood or religious affiliation (in other words a easy secular thing) ...But what doe God say are His own? What is His requirements? Why not consider my post #28?
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Right, Major: but your point seems to lead to God ONLY saving Jews before Christ which is untrue. The Jews were supposed to be THE example of Godly living and they failed-Christ came to remedy the situation. Now the present day Christians are supposed to be the example -we are failing and when Christ comes back there is not going to be a New New Testament-it will be time for judgement of ALL people. The disciples will be set to judge the 12 tribes correct? Christ will be looking at the rest of us 'heathen' 'gentile' 'pagan' 'Greek' etc...humans.

Luke 22:
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19:
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with [1] a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So now we can go back to arguing 'who are the elect?'. The elect are ANYONE who is following in God's way-not just 'Jews'. So to say we are 'Spiritual Jews' would be a bit odd since we are 'free from the law' don't you think?

It's about the Spirit-it's about our 'human heart condition'. It always has been since the Garden....
 
Dirtyrottensinner said:
Right, Major: but your point seems to lead to God ONLY saving Jews before Christ which is untrue. The Jews were supposed to be THE example of Godly living and they failed-Christ came to remedy the situation. Now the present day Christians are supposed to be the example -we are failing and when Christ comes back there is not going to be a New New Testament-it will be time for judgement of ALL people. The disciples will be set to judge the 12 tribes correct? Christ will be looking at the rest of us 'heathen' 'gentile' 'pagan' 'Greek' etc...humans.
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Dirtyrottensinner said:
Luke 22:
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, And I appoint unto you a kingdom

Matthew 19:
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with [1] a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So now we can go back to arguing 'who are the elect?'. The elect are ANYONE who is following in God's way-not just 'Jews'. So to say we are 'Spiritual Jews' would be a bit odd since we are 'free from the law' don't you think?

It's about the Spirit-it's about our 'human heart condition'. It always has been since the Garden....
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Excellant point DRS but can I say to you that the verses you are useing are not about judging at the return of Christ. I think you have confused them a little.

Look at Luke 22:29 again...........
"And I appoint unto you a kingdom"/ "And I appoint unto you a kingdom".

This is in referrance to the time AFTER the Return of Christ, the 1000 year rule of Christ or The Millinnium.


Matt. 19:27-30.......
in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Again we see this is IN the Millinnial Rule.

Matt. 24:30..........
" All the tribes of the earth" speaks to the humanity of eart, not Israel and actually it speaks to Rev. 1:7
"Behold He cometh with clouds AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM....AND they they also which pierced Him".

"The elect are ANYONE who is following in God's way-not just 'Jews'. So to say we are 'Spiritual Jews' would be a bit odd since we are 'free from the law' don't you think?"

NOPE, not at all.

A confusion of the church and Israel re sults from failure to strictly rely on a literal hermeneutic, and it results in a blurring of the distinctions between dispensations, a confusion of the covenants, and a denial of God's future dealings with the nation Israel. The roots of this point of view reach back into church history to Origen's allegorism ("spiritualizing" scripture, church is Israel), Augustine's The City of God (asserting that the millennium is fulfilled in the present church age and failing to see any future for the Jewish people).​

A literal interpretation of Scripture, however, reveals a clear distinction between the church and Israel. I Corinthians 10:32 is pivotal to understanding the distinction between Jews, Gentiles, and Christians: "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God. " Here three clearly distinct groups are seen:
(1) the Jews;
(2) the Gentiles; and
(3) the church of God.
(Are Christians 'Spiritual Jews'? by Dr. Daniel L. Segraves)
Romans 2:28, – and this is a Jew writing –
“For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh but he is a Jew which is one inwardly [that means spiritually] and the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

And Jesus said many will come from the East and the West [meaning the Gentiles] and will sit down in the Kingdom with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And again, Paul tells us that if ye are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed. We become Spiritual Jews by virtue of accepting Christ. We’re all saved under the new covenant.
 
Major said:
Excellant point DRS but can I say to you that the verses you are useing are not about judging at the return of Christ. I think you have confused them a little.
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Okay, I think I understand your point...

Can you answer these two questions for me:

Are there non-'Jews' from the pre-Cruxifixion of Christ age going into eternity on God's side?

-AND-

Do Jews still need to accept Christ as the Messiah after the resurrection? (What happens if they don't?)
 
Major Posts: It is because of their rejection of Christ that God turned to the Gentiles and offered that same salvation.

God meant Christ's message for everyone - for all of humanity -he already knew what the Jews would do and why. The prophets would not be telling 100% truth if things didn't turn out the way they did. And the prophecies for the Jews remains intact - not given to others.
 
DRS - of course acceptance of Christ is necessary for salvation - no one is saying different. AS to your first question - that's open to controversy - I say that is God's plan for all. Would it be fair for a loving God to consign all souls away from Him when they were not privy to the truth?
 
Rusty said:
Any "consignment", Silk, is done by human choice. God forces no one to "come unto Me". All His promises are conditioned upon compliance to His wishes.....I'm surprised you and others refuse to comment on my post #28.
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I thought I did Rusty - several posts back. I agree that God forces no one - I submit that he allows more time than some think to arrive at the truth of this decision before that decision consigns them to outer darkness. God knows all and understands us better than we do ourselves, certainly. I believe in a loving God who wants all souls back - present tense. That it is part of his plan. Not because he needs us but because we need Him.
 
What about Ruth? Ruth & Boaz- lineage of Christ in David's house....

Ruth was not a 'Jew' so now is the bloodline of David and therefore the flesh of Christ invalid? Or did that happen intentionally to disrupt the 'bloodline' argument as Christ intended.

Ruth 1:
4 Now they took wives of the women of Moab: the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth.

Genesis 19:
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

Matthew 1:
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
 
Bathsheba was a Hittite. What's your point DRS? If the Bible is to believed, we all come from Adam and Eve through Seth to Noah and on. I'm not the one that said bloodlines save anybody. It is mentioned in scripture that Jesus was from the House of David bloodline (or the patriatch bloodline) and that was thru his father, Joseph, the carpenter. What I DID say was Jesus was a Jew as were all of his Disciples and all the prophets both OT and NT. I said that Jews now identify themselves, either by practicing their religion or by bloodline (like my great grandmother was Jewish etc. ) or both. I don't understand why the mention of bloodlines has anything to do with why the Church does not replace the Jews in God's legacy. Somewhere along the line I said that we share it.
 
Rusty said:
Joseph was NOT Jesus' father....The Holy Spirit was....The lineage starting at Matthew 1 is to establish His "bloodline" from His legal earthly step-father, Joseph.
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Not going there, Rusty. Scripture says the Davidic bloodline comes down thru Joseph. I know Christ is the Son of God.
Not comparing here, but my ex-sister-in-law gave birth to her first child with "virginity"/hymen intact. It was my brother's seed that caused it. It is possible for a literalist like me to concieve (puns intended) that the Holy Spirit might have used Joseph's seed. It isn't clear but the early prophet's said that Christ would be of the Davidic line. If they were wrong - they failed the Prophet's test. Just saying. The monitors have my permission ahead of time to wipe this.
 
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