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The Church Has Replaced Israel?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Katy-follower, May 4, 2013.

  1. Romans 11 warns us about replacement theology....

    Romans 11:17-18: "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you (all gentile believers), being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them (Israel) became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you"

    Don't get me wrong here. There is only one way to be saved, through Jesus. Both individual Jew and gentile are being saved today when they believe in Jesus as savior and they then become part of the body of Christ. But.... Israel has not been done away with. I think it's terribly sad that so many try to replace Israel with the church as if God is done with Israel and has no future plans for her. Yes - the remnant will one day come to believe in Jesus also, as scripture states they will confess their sin and rejection, mourn for Him like an only son and then plead for His return during much tribulation. They will be saved in the last 3 days of the tribulation, as Hosea confirms.

    One's belief that Israel is finished just instigates all kinds of thoughts about the Jews, particularly hatred towards them (anti semitism). Do you see how one idea can lead to another idea, and soon you have a whole new doctrine born out of this initial belief?
    I hate to think that some Christians might be be led to join with the nations that come against Israel.​


    "....Replacement Theology. It is found in Roman Catholicism, some Protestant denominations and Islam!"

    "Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

    Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

    The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven. The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years.

    God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

    Both the Old Testament and the New Testament supports this understanding of God's plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says six times that Christ's kingdom will last 1000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11)"​
    Major, Silk and Mr. Darby says Amen and like this.
  2. To think that a race or nation has special favour with God has not supported in the Bible, as far as I can ascertain, unless you think there are no spiritual conditions...well...like faithfulness, obedience, purity, etc.....only a new heart matters to God, no matter what nation, race or past history you may claim.

    To think a race has a "special deal" with God is the same claim the Pharisees claimed.....utterly bogus, IMO.
  3. God keeps patching the holes in the sinking ship-but it is still the same sinking ship from Genesis 3. It is man that needs God, not the other way around.
  4. No, there is only one way to be saved. We have to be born again, born from above. It's the blood of Jesus that saves.

    God is not a breaker of His promises. I'm not suggesting Jews are saved any other way than through Jesus, but God is faithful and will save a remnant, as He has stated in scripture.

    We're told that blindness has come to Israel, but it's temporary. As a result we've been given the opportunity to be saved (individual Jew and gentile that come to believe in Jesus as savior)... we become part of the body of Christ, of the same Spirit.

    There is only one way to be saved. My point though, is that God is not done with Israel, He has plans for her. As Zechariah, Hosea and other books mention... there will be a remnant kept safe in an actual place called Bozrah (sheepfold), it's an actual place. The armies of Satan will try to come against the remnant in those last days. In the last 3 days of the tribulation, God will pour out a Spirit of grace on the House of David and many are going to be saved (they will come to believe that they rejected Jesus and confess their sin, mourn for Him like an only son and plead for His return).
    Major likes this.
  5. Yes yes...I have heard this Futurist theory before, many times....All of a sudden, 2000 years of rejection will instantly become a wholesale acceptance of Christ. Mass conversion because of warfare, etc etc....Right.

    God does not force anyone, even Jews to convert. His promises are conditional...based on conversion, not race.

    And many many more....all of God's promises have a STRONG condition. Obedience and loyalty.

    Now YOU must decide whether any peoples can reject Jesus outright and still be favored by God.
  6. I don't hold to titles or isms that cause division within the church. I'm non denominational and just read the bible on my own, with the Holy Spirit as my guide. Whatever I get from the word is not fed to me by any man, it's what I personally believe after reading scripture.

    In my opinion the preterist view is heretical. The idea that all was fulfilled in the past. Replacement theology that claims God is done with Israel is blasphemous and calls God a liar when He says their blindness is not permanent, it's only temporary. There will come a day when Israel will be saved... they will come to believe in Jesus as their Messiah. The Spirit of grace has not been poured out on them yet, it's an event to take place in the future.
    calvin, Mr. Darby, Major and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  7. I'm not even bringing up Preterism.

    However, what you are saying IS an "ism", Futurism or Dispensationalism, no doubt absorbed by you if you live anywhere in the Christian world, it's popularity, promotion and theory is so common.

    I'm not buying God's "blindness" to a nation's utter and total rejection of His Son, either. ANY person, no matter what religion, can convert, but NO nation will wholesale be converted due to race or past religion, as Christianity is NOT what today's popular Judaism represents.

    God is "no respecter of persons" and "there is no Jew or Greek " to Him.
  8. Jesus was a Jew - so were his twelve Apostles - even Paul/Saul, once a Pharisee and persecuter of the new born followers of Christ. The Prophets - old and new testaments were all Jews. Jesus' First Coming, was a prophecy to what people? The Jews. To deny that Christianity is rooted in the Jewish religion is as ridiculous as to say that God is "done" with the Jews. God keeps his promises despite our faithlessness. To those who are Christian, it will be the second coming - to the Jews it will be their First. And they have already suffered greatly for it - more than any group in history. We, as Christians, have inherited our "chosen" status from the Jews but it is a part of their legacy and they have not lost their status in God's sight. We share it. If we believe the OT, we all spring from the same stock, from Adam on down - so, in that sense, God has no favorites.
    calvin, Katy-follower and Major says Amen and like this.
  9. You are absolutely correct Katy!!

    The belief in "replacement theology" opens the door to all kinds of erroneous teaching because when error is accepted, the truth must be then rejected.

    To accept replacement theology, one must reject the clear Word of God.

    Romans 11:1
    "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? GOD FORBID!"

    2. "God hath not cast away His people which he foreknew".

    Paul offers the faithfullness of God as his example. God's foreknowledge is the guarantee that He has not cast off HIS people/ Had He done so, it would mean that He lied to Abraham, Moses, Isaac, and David who He guarantteed an ultimate restoration of the seed of Abraham.

    Having said that, we can clearly see that Paul has drawn a conclusion that it is utterly ridiculous to think that the nation of Israel has been replaced by God for even today there is a remnant according to the eletion of grace. This remnant of Israel is not saved by her line of descent nor by personal righteousness.

    They are saved the same way as Gentiles which the OP has stated-------by the Grace of God.
    calvin and Katy-follower say Amen and like this.
  10. Excellant Silk. May I add to your comment that when we, Gentile are saved, we in fact become "Spiritual Jews".
    Silk likes this.
  11. Of course "NO NATION will wholesale be converted" due to his race or past religion".

    Salvation is a one on one experience through the conviction of the Holy Spirit of the individuals sin. Then that person turns to Christ for the forgiveness of his sins which means he is then SAVED from the coming judgment.

    No one is suggesting that the nation of Israel will be saved but instead the PEOPLE in Israel will be saved who live in Israel when they come to Christ.

    Will all be saved??????

    Is everyone in Australia saved?
    Is everyone in Alabama saved?
    Is everyone in England saved?

    Silly question is it not!!!!
    calvin likes this.

  12. NOPE.
    We do not have to decide that. IT was all God's doing with Israel. It is YOU who has to reject or accept it.

    Deut. 7:6..........
    "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

    So then the question must be....."Who was Deuteronomy 7:6 spoken to?"

    Deuteronomy 6:3-4............
    3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
    4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

    So we see by the Word of God, NOT our opinion, but from God's mouth, that it reveals it was spoken to Israel.

    Is there more than just those verses???

    1 Chronicles 16:13..............
    13 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

    Psalm 33:12.....................
    1" Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance."

    ......................Isaiah 41:8-9
    8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

    9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
    Isaiah 48:12............
    "Harken unto me O Jacob and Israel my called, I am He, I am the first I also am the last".

    Daniel 11:15..............
    "So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand".

    From the above, it can be seen that the phrase, "chosen people" definitely applied to Israel.

    God chose the nation of Israel to be the people through whom Jesus Christ would be born—the Savior from sin and death (John 3:16). God first promised the Messiah after Adam and Eve’s fall into sin (Genesis chapter 3). God later confirmed that the Messiah would come from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Genesis 12:1-3). Jesus Christ is the ultimate reason why God chose Israel to be His special people. God did not need to have a chosen people, but He decided to do it that way. Jesus had to come from some nation of people, and God chose Israel.

    Did Old Testament Israel lose her election? As Paul would say, ......."God forbid!"

    Is God finished with Isreal today? As Paul would say.........."God forbid"!
    calvin likes this.
  13. Status? There is no "status" or position outside of accepting salvation through Christ's spilt blood, Silk.

    I don't see God having two Brides, the Redeemed and the Jews.

    I don't see God "unconditionally" promising real estate in the Middle East when just the smattering of verses posted in my post #5 show clearly there are conditions for any covenant with God...and historically the vast majority have the Hebrew church has rejected the keystone of any of God's promises: Christ.

    I find it odd that Christians are ready to pounce on anyone whom they think is "preaching another Jesus" and yet get all cozy with the folks who promote "Jesus was nothing to us"...Very bizarre.
  14. This is from http://www.contender.org/?page_id=232 and if you read the whole article, they are pretty hung up on the genetics and racial purity of Jews...and play fast and loose with many passages.

    Now this claim againsy Catholics, Protestants and Muslims needs very clear proof....please provide such proof....and this time it would be good to give credits to your sources.

    The bulk of your #1 post was from http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html
    and they clearly ask you here to respect their work:

  15. The problem: selfishness (arrogant pride).

    The solution: selflessness (Love, Mercy & Grace-to serve others)

    All good things come from God-it's really not that complicated...in my opinion.

    Weren't the Jews to 'serve' as an example-God's city on a hill? Is the command any different for any of God's people? Don't we all come from Noah-from Adam? (If you believe your Bible) Is God a respecter of 'persons'/ bloodlines? Why do we use history as justification for prejudice in the present?

    If the men of God get punished-why would we think that God would not allow punishment on those whom refuse & reject His Word? God hears those whom seek after Him....
    Rusty likes this.
  16. So your answer to Katy's question/comment is to re-direct where it came from. Does that in some way make her non-valid?
  17. So true....their have been individual Jews that have come to Christ, and they have been honored by Him.
    I see no "mass salvation of a race"or nation anywhere in the Word, only individuals who repented and left their former traditions and evil ways.
  18. I'm confused now - who is for Replacement theology? I'm "agin" it. As stated earlier, I do not think God is done with the Jews/Israel. We can go round the mulberry bush again, but I think we should honor the parentage (from whence we come).
    calvin likes this.
  19. The only one's 'replacing' anything are men replacing God with Idols- God doesn't change-we screw things up!

    God is for ALL people-when those 'people' reject God-He gets other people...

    'Call them in from the hedges, get the harlots, politicians and tax collectors if my children won't come!' Parable of the wedding feast.

    It's not that complicated.
    Rusty likes this.
  20. Sheesh - I don't think God replaces people, period.

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