Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by geralduk, Jul 22, 2015.
Good thought. That is my understanding as well.
Forgive me @geralduk. I hope you will come back.
Sister, Who are those who have endured, or have over come this world? Will eternal life be given to the Church on specific day in time, or at any time in the future? All born again Christians have already been given eternal, and have already over come this world!
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Eternal life is God's gift to us: it is assured; for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Yet there is also a prize to be won, which is based upon faithful service. Paul strove to win the race, to complete the course, to win the prize. I believe this is associated with reigning with Christ.
Our eternal life will begin at the resurrection: and yes, I agree, the Lord Jesus Christ has overcome the world for us.
Forgive the lack of Scriptural references, I am on a Kindle at present, but will supply them, if you wish.
In Christ Jesus
Thank you Gerald and Chris. You are right about that. Christ is the Body!
Yet, God says we are the Body of Christ, while He is the head of the Body.
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
If we were speaking face to face you would know how calm I was when I wrote the above.
As it is people can colour what is written with their own perceptions .
If that can be done with mans words how much the more the written word of God?
As it was if you were to read my post more prayerfully you will see that I simply answered your post that you believe that we do not experience the resserection life till we are dead.
I answered with scripture and biblical argument that this is not so .
I also pointed out that you cannot experience a resurection untill you are dead.
Which may explain why so many do not.For they are nor yet "made conformable to His death"
Or else they do not believe we can .
Given that by Pauls own confession he was given up as dead on two(?) occasions after being stoned he cannot be said to have not know the power of His resurection or indeed was not made conformable to his death.
There clearly then; is a lot more to both! and we should resist the temptation to bring the Word of God down to our own experience but lift the Word of God high and by the grace of God bring our experience in line with the Word of God.
To the comment about "there is no perfect local church" Who has suggest there is ?
But neither should we ignore the fact that the church itself is a prodigal church .
and is far from what it is to become .
The devil may and often does accuse the bretheren that we are not perfect or what we should be . We can always answer if it be true that we are not what we was and God will perfect that which concerneth us.
Never the less how are we perfected?
If not by continual exposure to the Word of God and the searching of the Holy Spirit?
It is one thing to say we are not perfect it is quite another to say we need not change a thing!
When Gold is refined in the fire all the impurities come to the surface and is skimmed off and continually so .
So we get different purity of gold.
"I am rich increased in goods ..........................." that alone blasts the false message of "prosperity" out of the water .
"and in need of nothing " means a self satisfied contentment with what that church had .
The Lords perception how ever was "that it was wretched naked and poor and ion need of eye salve" and it did not even know it.,
Clearly by any estimation that church is not ready! and is need to repent and ask God for eye salve .
Another church says I am poor , not prosperous then. But the Lords perception was "ye are rich"
I have been a christian for nearly 40 years . My observation and experience is that in most cases what Paul called the Milk of the Word and is listed in Hebrews . is nigh on all that is ever preached and taught .
Working in a Bible bookshop I met many christians . Some theological students in a seminar were only taught all the varying 'opinions' and theories and what I call schools of theology about the last days .But were not taught the truth .
If then they are not taught the truth how will thye ever preach it form their respective pulpits and then by that brign Gods people to a unity of the faith and a perfection of the Bride?
How in deed can the Bride be perfected when all she gets is the milk of the Word?
In truth the pastor of the church I was saved in confessed to me that as to being BORNagain most if not all are in agreement . But in all other matters there is none and there are as many opinions as there are pastors .
I thank God for the man . But whether he was wise to say that to a young Christian is a moot point.
Never the less I have found that to be all too true .
and even in these forums the 'problem' is avoided . as it causes to many divisions and contentions etc,.
Why should that be ? Unless there is carnality and a basic unwillingness ot eb led by the Spirit of God who leads us into all truth?
For clearly we I you and the church should come to know that which is true about any matter that is written in scripture and expecially about the Bride of Christ who needs must have "got herself ready"
It is not then a jaded view or a cynical or unbelieving view of the church or indeed of what you call weaker brethren.
For I am baptised into that body the lord calls HIS who he has bought with his own blood .
I am therefore a member of that body that view as a whole and not in its component parts.
You say there is no perfect local church ?
or indeed the church is not yet perfect.
Well according to the Lord ,HE is outside knocking on the door of THE Church .That is His body.
There is but ONE church . and whether a man is weak or strong he is inside that church .
After the resurection no door was a hinderance to him. How come then he is knocking on the door of his own church?
Clearly the church is unaware that he is outside . an d think Him inside . or have no regard whether he is in or out .
Whatever the reason then that the Lord is outside and knocking on the door is a CALL to ALL who are inside .
No matter whether you consider them saved or not weak or not .
The CALL is to all .
The promise however is to those "who have an ear and open the door "to THEM will .............."
What is the call ? To repent or stop your present 'program ' and go and open the door to the Lord .
But too many have their own programes and traditions to do so albeit they might hear the knocking but do not then go and open the door . For it will mean too much trouble and adjustments if you do?
The Lord is coming soon ,.He has I believe already left the building to come as it were .Like the sun leaves its abode like a groom .
and if it was the "last days" (Hebrews 1:1) when the Lord walked this earth how much the more are we now in the last days 2000 years later?
For then the days were "green" but now they are "dry" and ready for the fire.
So let us think kindly of one another and with good grace accept the challenges that the written word presents .
I am sure you are right, in regard to both man's words, and God's Word, our reception of both is coloured by our own perceptions or experience. You are right, also, in regard to my reaction to you, and to my need to have read your post more prayerfully.
* You misunderstood me, Gerald, for I do believe that we experience His resurrection life now, in spirit. Yet there is an experience of His resurrection power which is yet to come, when we are resurrected from the dead, for then mortality will put on immortality.
* I agree that we should not bring the Word of God down to the level of our own experience, Gerald.
* I agree.
* I think I get your drift.
* unfortunately true.
* We differ in our understanding concerning 'The Bride', Gerald.
* Again, we differ in our understanding concerning 'The Bride', Gerald.
* Are you referring to, Revelation 3:20,
'Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:
if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.'
* This is apparently the call to the wedding feast, that the parables pointed to, eg., Luke 12:35-38-
'Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord,
when he will return from the wedding;
that when he cometh and knocketh,
they may open unto him immediately. '
* Have to go now, Gerald.
Yes indeed, Gerald, yes indeed.
With love to you,
In Christ Jesus
If you look carefully at the two scriptures that speaks of the Lord knocking on the door.
They cannot both apply to the Bride . as one of those quotes speaks of coming "FROM the wedding" or return from the wedding.
Thus another indicator that the Lord first will come FOR his bride and then will come WITH His bride 'from the wedding'
"As In the days of Noah ,so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man"
The coming of the Lord will be as much a surprise to the World as it was a surprise to the generation of Noah .
and if we are to gain as much food for thought from the Lords statement of these "days" we need then to look first at Noah and then as to his days .
"Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord "
It is often quoted that the law came by Moses but grace and truth by Jesus Christ. and quoted as if the grace of God was only manifested first at the first coming of the Lord.
But it was the grace of God that gave Adam and Eve a covering of animal skins and also a promise.
It was by grace that men from Abel onwards have all been saved. For what applies to us applied to them ."By grace are ye saved ....."
Genesis 6:9 "Noah was a just man and perfect with his generations and Noah walked with God "
There are not many people in the scriptures where men are called "Just men" The one that first comes to mind is Joseph the soon to be husband of Mary the mother of Jesus. Who on finding out that she was pregnant and had in his thinking and to all intents and purposes committed adultery "being a just man sought to put her away privately"
Compare this with the religionists who on finding a couple caught "in the very act" of adultery (john 8) did not seek to bring her to Jesus privately or discreetly but quite the opposite.
What then is a just man ? when it clearly has little to do with the justification by the law?
and "perfect in his generations " He was counted righteous his generations were not .
He "walked with God " So too did Enoch .So why was Enoch translated before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the world and was saved FROM it . and Noah had to endure going through it . or was saved THROUGH it .
Clearly then Enochs walk was of another order or perfection than Noahs . That may well have to do with Noahs later drunkeness .It is said of Noah that he was "moved by fear" Enoch was moved or walked by faith .
So the days of Noah were filled with all the normal things of life .eating and drinking ,people marrying and having children . But "the heart of men was towards evil CONTINUALLY"
in the days of Noah there was Enoch.
Who was translated before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon that generation.
It should be noted that up to that point it had never rained upon the earth .For the whole earth was watered by the mist in the morning . So it was outside the experience of all .
Just because man or ourselves have yet to or have not experienced something we should not measure the Word of God by ourselves.
The children of Israel had been slaves for 400 years putting that into perspective that is 1715 to the present year .
They had known nothing else . For only one who was Joseph had been sown in Egypt and by him over 2000,000 had come out.
They were saved by the word and promise to Abraham by God.
They were saved by the power of God and the blood of a lamb.
It should be noted that all the demonstrations of power and judgment did not change the hearts and minds of Pharoah or the Egyptians nor did it 'save' the children of israel . It was only the death of the lamb and the blood that was shed and APPLIED that saved them from death and bondage .
As in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the Son of man .
The coming of the Lord is for the primary purpose of gathering his people unto himself "in the air"
For I will come again .."that where I am ye may be also"
He will come FOR His bride .
Enoch was translated or 'raptured' before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth .So too will the Bride of Christ be translated before the outpouring of Gods judgments upon the earth .
For the restraining power of the Holy Spirit that abides in the Bride will be go also .
Enoch was saved before the flood .
Noah was saved through the flood.,
Revelation 3:20 and Luke 12:16
I'm sorry, but I don't see that. Let's look at these verses a moment.
'Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:
if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him,
and will sup with him, and he with me.'
The call is to the Wedding Feast of Chapter 19:9:-
'And he saith unto me,
"Write, Blessed are they which are called
unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."
And he saith unto me,
"These are the true sayings of God."
To which the parables pointed, especially Luke 12:35-38. The servants are exhorted to be 'like unto men that wait for their Lord' when He shall return from the wedding; that when He cometh and knocketh they may open to Him immediately. Blessed are those servants whom the Lord when He cometh shall find watching.
* The coming is no longer spoken of as 'near' - He is already at the door.
To the twelve Tribes scattered abroad it is written in view of His coming - ' The judge standeth before the door' (Jas. 5:7,8,9). The nearness of the Lord as the 'judge' is the warning conveyed by these words in the Epistle to the Assembly in Loadicea, and not the nearness of the Saviour in grace, or an invitation to sinners in this day of grace.
'If any one hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.' It is in connection with the 'knocking' just referred to in Luke 12:37 that the promise is given to the 'servants' spoken of (not to the church). 'Verily I say unto you that He shall gird Himself and make them to sit down to meat, and He will come forth and serve them' (Compare Matt. 22:2,3; Luke 14:15; 22:16-18; Mark 14:25, and Rev. 19:9). This is the same watching which is spoken of in Luke 12:39 as the watching for the 'coming' as a thief.
In Christ Jesus
Ref: 'Commentary on Revelation' by E.W. Bullinger
Luke 12 :35 "as one who comes FROM a wedding ..................."
The ones then he is coming to are ones who clearly were NOT at the wedding for he si coming FROM the wedding .
The two verses then you give contradict each other in THAT sense if you count them as meaning or refering to the same thing
* Yes. This should be interesting.
* Absolutely. Praise God!
* Good point, @geralduk. What a contrast!
* All flesh apart from Noah and his family, had been corrupted by the angels that fell (Gen.6) he alone was 'perfect' (without blemish) in his generations, (or in regard to his 'pedigree' or 'line of decent')
* , interesting point, Gerald.
* I don't think we can presume that.
* This can only ever be conjecture, though, Gerald,can't it? It may tell us something of the man, but it does not give us any reason to make a conclusion as to how that influences God's actions in regard to either.
* This is what characterises the latter days, too, isn't it? The normality, people going about their business as usual, yet as in Noah's day, men's hearts are evil continually, for they are ungodly.
* and .
* Praise God!
* Again, Praise God!
* The reference to the days of Noah, was in relation to the conditions that prevailed in that day, it will be the same also in the latter days. ; ;
* I think this is too sweeping a statement, Gerald. For His 'coming' will be as judge too.
* Where does it say that the Lord will come 'for His Bride', Gerald?
* This is not so, for there are 'overcomers', and those who 'loved not their lives unto death', who have their place in the new Jerusalem, which is the bride of the Lamb.(). These will go through the tribulation of those days, and lay down their lives, rather than worship the beast or bear his mark. The faithful in their generation.
* 2 Thess. 2:7, and the one who, 'will let', does not refer to the Holy Spirit.
* What justification do we have, Gerald, to make an application of this in this way, if the Holy Spirit does not.
In Christ Jesus
Hello again, @geraduk,
No, I said that Revelation 3:20, 'Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.' has reference to the call to the wedding feast (Rev.19:9), 'And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.' To which the parables pointed, eg., Luke 12:15-38. '... when He cometh and knocketh'.
I don't see the problem, Gerald. I'm sorry.
In Christ Jesus
" Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot.................................."
In the days of Noah there was Enoch. So likewise in the days of Lot there was Abraham.
Now despite the fact that God "HAD said get thee out of thy country and from thy kindred and from thy fathers housed and unto a land that I wills how you" to Abraham. Gen12:1
It was "Tarah his father who took Abraham his son ....." o with Lot out from the land of the Chaldeans ...... " gen 11:31
Abrahams obedience and commitment was then partial .It was not until his father or as it were his 'old man ' had died did he begin to fully obey . But he still took Lot with him. and his faith was not yet perfected ,He was afraid of men . gen 12:12.
When we make mistakes we must go back to the last place we walked and talked with God . So did Abraham he returned to the alter he had built before he went down to Egypt. gen 13:4
Abraham was very rich in cattle and gold and silver and so was Lot so much so "the land was not able to bear them ,that they might dwell together..." gen 13 :2-6
Gods will and Word was that Abraham should from thy fathers house and kindred. If we do not obey the Word of God then the Will of God is still done as he uses circumstance to effect the very purpose of His Word.
It came then to a parting of the ways that there might be peace between them .For it was not good there was strife between brethren.
Gen 13:9 is a very critical point in both their lives and what followed next .
Abraham said despite he being the senior and should have first choice.
"Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself ,I pray thee from me .If thou wilt take the left hand I will go to the right;if thou depart to the right hand ,I will go left"
It did not matter to Abraham which way he went for he walked by faith and with God.
Verse 10 .
and Lot lifted up his eyes and beheld the plain of Jordan it was as well watered and then as pleasant as "the garden of the Lord" The garden of Eden .
His choice then was what his eyes told him . He therefore walked by sight and not by faith .
and Lot chose him all the plains of Jordan . Abraham dwelled in the land of Caannan .Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain ...... and pitched his tent towards Sodom.
What Lot could not see because he walked by sight was "that the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly"
The next time you hear of Lot was that he was captured WITH the kings of those cities and all his goods stolen.
Abraham on hearing of it went off in pursuit and delivered Lot out of their hands and restored his goods .
The next time you hear of Lot is he is living IN Sodom . Blind to the hour and the danger he was in .
It is worth noting the rise if you will of Abraham in that his walk with God was to become closer still and his faith perfected and the promises and the blessings of God greater than all the silver and gold and much cattle .
Lot was now living IN the city for protection perhaps while Abraham had God "as his shield and great reward ."
There is no profit at all in going to the world for protection and thinking that Godless vain and wicked assertion of a human rights bill will preserve you.
We now go to Chapter 18 and much that has gone on in the life of Abraham since chapter 13 .
and the Lord says "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing that I do"?
"The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him" is it not ? Thus a man who walked by faith came to know what God was about to do. But the man who walked by sight was oblivious to what God was about to do.
Lot was counted righteous or just yet his walk was by sight and not by faith .
" and delivered just Lot ,vexed from the filthy conversations of the wicked" 2 peter 2:7
To be continued
Er actually he is the HEAD .The church is the body.
and it the body is both the house and temple of the Lord God.
So we have Enoch who was translated BEFORE the flood of Gods wrath upon the earth and Noah who was saved through it .and Abraham who was no where near the place of Judgment and Lot who was saved from it by getting out of it .
Noah was moved by fear .Enoch walked by faith.
Abraham walked by faith , Lot walked by sight .
and while Abraham remained in the blessing of God and was as 'rich' as he was before . Lot lost all but the salvation of his soul and as the scriptures say of some "suffered loss as through fire"
Here is in part an y way a picture of the Bride of Christ in the lives of Enoch and Abraham. So that we might recognise in them some of the the traits and characteristics of the Bride .
The Bride of Christ has a great many qualities but first it has to be established where she comes from.
As has been said before .The first Adam also had a bride or wife . She was not created from the dust of the earth but from the body of the man .
In case men boast themselves over women God balances everything and man is born of a woman .
But in the matter of creation man was created out of the dust of the earth and she was created form the midst of his body.
She was not created from ALL his body but form a part of his body.
a help meet for him.
The Lord is called the last and second Adam.
In that regard then he is likened unto the first .
Then his wife or bride will also not be created from the whole body but will be made from part of his body or from the midst .
If this was in isolation it is not really proof . For it is in the mouth of two (minimum) witnesses a thing is established.
But we also find the same principle of a body out of a body when we see how Abraham who is a type for the Father sending his high servant a type of the Holy ghost to seek a bride for His Son.
with strict instructions that he was not to seek her from among the world but only" from among his brethren"
The Bride will not be found in the world but in the midst of his brethren.
and what of the twelve tribes of Israel?
Was there not one tribe out of the 12 who had no inheritance ? For The Lord God" was their inheritance "
and how come the tribe of Levi were given this honour? for zeal.
and what of the 12 disciples?
Was there not also a body of them taken from the midst of all of them? Peter , James and John who saw and did things the others did not.
The Bride then is from a double selection a body from the midst of the body . Not divided from the body but separated unto God the " first fruits " holy unto God.
it is due to the misunderstanding of this point that is at the root of most of the confusion over the last days and the coming of the Lord.
For people are saved AFTER and BEFORE what is called the 'rapture' of the Bride .
and each having the same error as to the nature of the Bride accuses the other of being wrong.When in fact they are both wrong on one vital matter .
That not all the body will be ready at the coming of the Lord .
Yes, Christ Jesus, our Beloved, risen and glorified Lord, is the Head of the One Body. That glorious fact we are all agreed on.
Our understanding differs on what the Body comprises, that is between ourselves and God the Holy Spirit. It is not a matter of contention or of condemnation. We, each one, have been brought into fellowship with the Father, and with His Son, through the Spirit, and it is there that we learn of the things of Christ, not from dispute or the accumulation of many words.
In fact the 'many words' of man just makes the heart to sink, and distresses the spirit. The Word of God itself does neither of those things, so it is best to concentrate on personal study, and wait on the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, Who gives it in the form, and at the pace that is right for each individual.
May God's perfect will be done in each one of us, for His Name and glory's sake.
In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Hello again, @geralduk,
While applauding your obvious knowledge of the Scriptures, I question your use of the Old Testament types, in regard to 'The Church which is His Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'
There is much to be learned from these examples, yes, but they do not describe the Church which is His Body.
I agree that there is evidence for the principle of an, 'election within an election,' but not with your application of it.
In Christ Jesus