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The Birthing Is The Key To The Scriptures

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Noblemen, Sep 30, 2016.

  1. #1 Noblemen, Sep 30, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
    The greater problem with our Christian law keepers, who are our brethren and are in Christ just as are all other believers, is that they have not yet come to the full understanding of the believers union with Christ.
    They have not yet come to the full understanding of the believers union with Christ.
    To fully understand the believers union with Christ, it is necessary that the only key to the scriptures be the birthing, John 3:3,5.
    Today it is the same as it was the night Jesus met Nicodemus and said that unless he were born again he were born again he could neither see nor enter the things of God. As a result of Christ's message to Nicodemus, we see now that the true gospel is based upon one thing only-the birthing.
    The birthing, however, goes much deeper than most believers – especially law-keepers – are ready to see. The birthing brings about God's dependence upon another person, Christ in us, as our righteousness and basically as our law-keeper. Christ fulfilled the law once and for all at Calvary. It is Christ who never sinned, who kept the law as did no other human being. All others in the 4300 years since the Father issued His first "Thou shalt not" in the garden have miserably failed. Even after Israel cried for and received a law in Moses day, they were not able to keep it.
    Sin cannot be abated, nor overcome, by mental adherence to ceremonial or moral ideas. Sin can be overcome only by another, Christ on Calvary.
    He overcomes sin perfectly because he destroys the sin nature which is in the believer and makes it possible for God to give the once-sinner a new nature, a divine nature. Because many Christian law-keepers do not see that Christ is in them, they substitute the law, even the fullness of the Ten Commandments, to try to be morally right before God. Of course, this is falling into the same religious trap set by Satan for Israel and all those Who have lived in the past 4300 years of history from Adam to Christ. The trap was that no man within himself could please God because no man within himself could keep the law.
    The final argument between law and grace is settled by God himself at Calvary. Just as all in the Old Testament who attempted to keep God's law finally had to offer the sacrifice of an innocent substitute, and by the shedding of the blood of that innocent substitute were made acceptable to God, so does Calvary show, ultimately and finally, that the death of God's lamb is the only means of being excepted by Him.
  2. I agree completely! I am so blessed that you have brought this up again.

    It seems to me that at the root of the debate between Law keepers and Grace believers are differing views on the basis of salvation.

    In reality, there is no conflict between grace and the Law, when they are properly understood. Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf and offers the power of the Holy Spirit, who motivates a regenerated heart to live in obedience to Him.

    As James 2:26 says............
    “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”

    A grace that has the power to save also has the power to motivate a sinful heart toward godliness. Where there is no impulse to be godly, there is no saving faith.

    The Bible clearly says that we are saved by grace, through faith . The Bible also says that the keeping of the Law cannot save anyone in Romans 3:20 and Titus 3:5. In fact, those who claim righteousness on the basis of their keeping of the Law only think they’re keeping the Law; this was one of Jesus’ main points in the Sermon on the Mount in Matt. 5:20-48 and Luke 18:18-23.

    So then we seen that the purpose of the Law was, basically, to bring us to Christ as recorded in Galatians 3:24. Once we are saved, God desires to glorify Himself through our good works. Therefore, good works follow salvation; they do not precede it. Now that is what the Bible teaches us.

    Nobleman. Would you agree with me that the conflict between “grace believers” and the “Law keepers" arise when someone.............
    1) misunderstands the purpose of the Law;
    2) redefines grace as something other than “God’s benevolence on the undeserving”;
    3) tries to earn his own salvation or “supplement” Christ’s sacrifice;
    4) follows the error of the Pharisees in tacking manmade rituals and traditions onto his doctrine;
    5) fails to focus on the “whole counsel of God”??????

    Then would you also agree that when the Holy Spirit guides our search of Scripture, we can “study to show ourselves approved unto God” and discover the beauty of a grace that produces good works.

    Good work by the way in all that you do.
    Noblemen likes this.
  3. Yes I would agree, apart from seeing Christ in others and even those in the world being created in His image, we fall short of the Glory of God.
    The Glory of God in most cases is the plan of God before the foundation of the world.
    There is far more to understanding the plan of God than most of us know. Most humans think that, what they know is all there is to know. And we all have a problem with admitting there may be something we don't know.
    It stems from the oldman syndrome but nonetheless it exists.
    The mind is like a hard drive, to put it in terms we can grasp, and it was programmed by the old nature, sin nature.
    Even though the sin nature is what Jesus crucified on the cross, the mind goes untouched basically at the cross. So the renewal process begins. Point being that the mind can look and act out exactly like the sin nature but it is "no longer I" Paul would say but sin in me. So the term born-again or the birthing is what begins to open up the scriptures to the believer.
    The oldman is dead (sin nature) and we have a new man (Christ) that we were joined to at the new birth.
    We live by nature and did not know that it was our sin nature that controlled us, tricky dude.
    Sin never jumped out and said its me doing or causing you to do your bidding. It was never you alone doing the sinning, we were an instrument, we partook but it wasn't us alone, just as we are to partake and be an instrument for the Christ-life in us now.
  4. All good thoughts my brother. I have for a long time thought about this "old man syndrome". It seems to me that you are saying that the old man, or the sin nature is dead.

    If so allow me to post several concerns to you which come from that idea.

    When we read Rom. 6:6 we see that our old man was crucified with Him’ YET we are still told to ‘put off… the old man, which IS corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.’ in Eph. 4:22. My point is that If the old man is eradicated and doesn’t exist, why are believers told to put him off? And why does it say that the old man IS corrupt (present tense) if he doesn’t exist anymore in Christians?

    And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.’ according to Gal. 5:24---- YET in the same chapter we are told that there is a daily battle going on within the believer where ‘the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.’

    If the flesh has been crucified (which in your understanding would mean that it is eradicated and doesn’t exist) then why is there still this on going battle with the Spirit against that which has been crucified and eradicated? Clearly co-crucifixion does not mean eradication

    Our old man is crucified… that the body of sin might be destroyed’ (in Rom. 6:6 YET Paul, speaking as a Christian could also say that ‘sin…dwelleth in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing.’ as said in Romans 7:16. Do you see the problem here??????

    Why would Paul say that sin (not acts but the nature there of) dwells in him, and in him dwelleth no good thing if he thought that the sinful nature was eradicated? Would you, like Paul, agree that in you dwelleth no good thing?
    Noblemen likes this.
  5. Sure I fully understand your concerns, most of Christianity has the same thoughts concerning the oldman. Rightfully so because point blank, we still sin as Christians.
    If you read, Romans 6:6, and stop there it says that the oldman is dead. Don't go anywhere else to try to prove that's not so, just yet anyway.
    At this point dividing soul and spirit must come into play before the believer can move on into seeing the most liberating truth of God, which is Christ in you.
    Putting off or putting on is a mind component, a mind thing.
    It's not spirit because we know from, Romans, the moment He died, we died. All in Adam have been crucified, so rightly dividing is always the answer. Paul can in back to back verses be talking to the Jew, trying to compel them to see, and go in another direction speaking about spirit and turn to soul in a matter of a few verses.
    Sounds hard to follow Paul but it's not when you realize what he is doing.

    Yes there is a battle for the flesh, flesh is mind given to body, that constitutes flesh.
    It is Christ that would like to express Himself through the believer. The new man, the new creation, the One Son living as the life of many sons. He that hath the Son hath life, because life is in the Son.
    So it all comes down to revelation, the gospel is a person, that person was revealed in Paul and we can have the same revelation.
    It is the only mind transformation there is, the Holy Spirit is our teacher.
    Jesus said what He would do when He came, Jesus said He would not speak of Himself but reveal Me to you. Jesus spent 3 chapters in, John 14, 15 and 16 addressing the Holy Spirit.

    Now, Romans 7, Paul also says he was alive at one time without the law. Paul was never alive without the law. My understanding is that Paul was speaking retrospectively from the standpoint of being in Adam.
    He could do that now he was in Christ with knowledge.
    He talks about the old husband and wife and the husband dieing, now she was free to another, even Christ.
    So without Paul there is no "in Christ" message, we have to follow Paul as he instructed.
  6. #6 Major, Oct 12, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
    I understand your thought. I must say however that I do not agree with all of what you are saying. What your thesis hinges on is the letter "I" in Romans 7. Correct?

    Who is the "I" Paul is referring to????

    There has been over the years 3 prominate teaching to come out over this question.

    1). The Regenerate experience
    sees language in describing a believer’s battle against sin.
    ( The believer always has the old nature and new nature and is caught in the middle of the two, wanting to follow God but finding it impossible to do
    because of his old sin nature).

    2). The Unregenerate experience sees language as impossible to square with what Scripture says of believers.
    (Paul’s autobiography. Paul’s own past, seen retrospectively through the eyes of Paul the believer.)

    3). Universal experience sees Romans 7 describing every human, whether believer or unbeliever, under the law.
    ( This sees Romans 7 describing every human, whether believer or unbeliever,)

    Paul spoke at other times about the struggle of the two natures and not just in Romans 7.

    Paul states in Galatians 5:17: ...................
    "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and there are CONTRARY the one to the other."

    It seems to me that Romans 5:12 confirms The very fact that you will die one day proves that you have a sin nature........
    "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned."

    There is a story about an animal trainer who starved a tiger almost to the point of death. He did not feed the tiger with raw meat and gave him no taste of blood for weeks, until the animal lay in the cage as though he were almost dead. The trainer would go into the cage every day and stroke the tiger's head, and the subdued beast would lick his master's hand. But one day, not noticing a scratch on the back of his hand with a tiny trickle of blood oozing from it, he reached out to stroke the animal's head as usual and then the smell of warm blood reached the nostrils of the tiger. He had not tasted blood or raw meat for weeks. He had been starved until he appeared to be almost been starved until he appeared to be almost helpless; but the smell of blood revived him and with blazing eyes he pounced on his trainer who but a moment before had felt the warm stroke of the tiger's tongue on his hand! The tiger nature had not changed, and the moment he came in contact with the smell of blood all the fury of the jungle was revived. ( From......https://www.biblebelievers.com/Todd5.html)

    So it is with the old nature. We may starve it and reduce it to a minimum of manifestation, but the fatal moment we attempt to pamper it by giving it a taste of the world (no matter how refined that taste may be) it will revive and, crouching tiger-like, will spring up against our spiritual life.

    Now I ask you to just think about something for a moment. If we give the idea of the Sin Nature being eradicated at conversion enough rope to run with, and we follow that to its logical conclusion, would you not agree that the end thereof would be a state of "sinless perfection".

    Think now......
    The sin nature is eradicated, gone, removed. That being the case there would be no temptation that we would give it to....correct????
    What would keep the believer from thinking he is sinless while still in his flesh. What other conclusion could you come to other than the obvious????

    Do you see the problem with that?????

    The only way to control the habits and desires of the flesh is to keep the New Man on the throne and keep him strong and healthy by feeding the right kind of spiritual food which begins and ends with the Word of God.
    Noblemen likes this.
  7. Sure and with all due respect we just see it differently and I understand that. The search of scripture is not as easy as projected by some. It is a deep thing to take on the Word of God.
    This in my opinion, which by the way is not worth to much, is the coming together of the saints in Christ to reason out what they are seeing.
    It's ok to be wrong, but to be head strong will cause some discomfort.
    My experience has been whether I have interpreted a verse right or wrong, the challenge stays the same to seek the Lord and trust His leading.
    And I must admit when I'm wrong, and give what I feel like is the gospel delivered to us to give too the world.
    There is plenty of doctrines of men, the Lord knows we don't need anymore.
  8. I certainly agree with you as that is pretty much my thinking as well.

    A long time ago, a professor said to me about understanding the Scriptures that, no matter what it is you are concerned with, when it "feels right to you and all the contextual pieces fit together, then you will know what is right to you".

    I have stuck with that now for all of these years. Maybe I am wrong and maybe I am right. The truth is that it really does not matter. The only thing we talk about that does matter is the saving grace we have through the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done for man. Because of Him and His work we can say for a certainty that we are the children of God and we have a heavenly home waiting for us.

    I Always enjoy the conversations brother!
    Noblemen likes this.
  9. Quick thought here brothers,
    Christ on the cross stripped the power of the old sin nature over us ..... However.........this is key here. ...

    Just as He stripped the power from sin and death and the devil over us....

    We Still Have To Work At It. We still have to pay attention and take the proper actions required.

    The deal is......we Are Now Able To Do So ...... if we line our selves up with His word and ways.

    Without Christ defeating the power of sin over us......we would have No Hope of controlling the old nature at all but now we can through the Word Of God.

    Just like everything else we have already in Christ...... it just does not happen because we got our selves born again.

    You can Not Stop a bird from landing on your roof........But you can stop Him from building a nest and setting down roots.

    It takes action on our part. Even though we have dominion over that bird, unless we Do Our Part, the bird will build it's nest.

    It's the same with every promise and resource a born again believer has in Christ.......we must Do Our Part or it does us no good.

    So yes the old sin nature has lost its power over us in Christ........but again it takes work on our part.
    Blessings to you both Major Noblemen
    Major, Cturtle and Noblemen says Amen and like this.
  10. I believe that's the conclusion Major and I came to.
    I just see the oldman crucified "in Christ" and it being a mind thing now.
    Good word Jim.
    Major likes this.
  11. What is your definition of "mind thing"
    Noblemen and Cturtle say Amen and like this.
  12. Finding out what has happened to us in spirit, we are complete in Christ, Col. 2:10, that's spirit.
    The soul being the mind, will and intellect.
    We are tripartite beings made up of body, soul and spirit, 1Thessalonians 5:23.
    Delivered in spirit, being delivered (renewed) in mind, and yet will be delivered in body, 2 corinthians 1:10.
  13. I like the example of the bird building a nest.

    IMO, we will always have the sin nature with us but we do not have to allow it to move in with us, control us and be comfortable.
    Cturtle and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  14. Being able to know why you are standing in the bathroom.
    Noblemen and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  15. This all well and good but it's not complete. One can renew their mind until they are blue in the face but if they don't get His word deep within their heart, well it does them very little.

    Renewing the mind means we begin to learn how to Think, Speak and act like God. A true renewed mind in Christ will not respond the same as the natural mind will and many times it does not even make sense to the natural mind but it works because it's the way of God.

    It's so much more then a mind thing.
    Cturtle, Noblemen and Major says Amen and like this.
  16. I thought I was the only one that did that!!!!
  17. Not only that but the other day I was standing at the bottom of the stairs and wondering if I had just come down them or was about to go up them.
    Noblemen likes this.
  18. Lol to good
  19. Praise God you have a sound mind!
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  20. I don't know about that either.

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