The Bible And Me

Must I take ''Did you know that a man who raped a virgin had to marry his victim? Everything is in the OT / on the other hand the violence contained in it repels me. Primarily if "God" ordered the violence'' as an attack on the OT / God (John 1:1) and your final consensus on the matter? You judge God as bad because He ordered violence?

Have you not read Jonah 4:2? He prayed to the Lord, “Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.

I think this tends to be the crux of the problem. If one can find a Biblical passage that seems to illustrate God as violent and tyrannical, someone else can find a verse that explains that God is not violent and tyrannical. But then the question brought up after that is usually A) "Well then the Bible is false", B) "Your verse is wrong", or C) "You took your verse out of context." If A is true, then that means the passage provided that "explains" God being violent and tyrannical must also be discarded as false. If B is true, then any verse has the ability to be wrong and the scriptures become relative. And if C is true, evidence must be provided, and pointing to another verse would be arguing in a circle.

This is why it is important to learn about what God is and what God is not. If God is "ipsum esse subsistens" and not merely a supreme being, then either He is all good and loving or all evil and hating. If He is the latter, then love wouldn't be a thing, but a lack of something else. This might seem a bit simplistic and maybe even a bit of a stretch, but if love is only a lack of something, then it seems bizarre that it is often a goal--whether it be morally, romantically, or even physically. And if God is "ipsum esse subsistens," then how does man counter God with a removal of a thing and that lack of something being more powerful? (Forgive me if that was poorly worded).

I'm not arguing against you, King J -- I'm adding onto your question.
 
I think this tends to be the crux of the problem. If one can find a Biblical passage that seems to illustrate God as violent and tyrannical, someone else can find a verse that explains that God is not violent and tyrannical. But then the question brought up after that is usually A) "Well then the Bible is false", B) "Your verse is wrong", or C) "You took your verse out of context." If A is true, then that means the passage provided that "explains" God being violent and tyrannical must also be discarded as false. If B is true, then any verse has the ability to be wrong and the scriptures become relative. And if C is true, evidence must be provided, and pointing to another verse would be arguing in a circle.

This is why it is important to learn about what God is and what God is not. If God is "ipsum esse subsistens" and not merely a supreme being, then either He is all good and loving or all evil and hating. If He is the latter, then love wouldn't be a thing, but a lack of something else. This might seem a bit simplistic and maybe even a bit of a stretch, but if love is only a lack of something, then it seems bizarre that it is often a goal--whether it be morally, romantically, or even physically. And if God is "ipsum esse subsistens," then how does man counter God with a removal of a thing and that lack of something being more powerful? (Forgive me if that was poorly worded).

I'm not arguing against you, King J -- I'm adding onto your question.
I agree that God is incapable of changing. I wouldn't say that then means he is necessary all love and no hate. It means that He is who He is. If we find scripture that defines Him, that is who He is. The issue is simply that we need to take all scripture. Some churches take the NT and all the luvvy duvvy scriptures only :rolleyes:.

God loves all He creates. God hates sin. God can create what He wants. We would all be en-route to heaven if we were at a monkeys intelligence. But since we have intelligence, we are accountable for using or not using it. When we only look at one side of the coin, we are not using it. We then need to ask why? Why the bias? The devil was biased and we know why, he hates God. I know many atheists who hate God and are contsantly biased. I like to hope though that visitors to a Christian site are more open minded. But it seems so marginal :cry:.
 
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I agree that God is incapable of changing. I wouldn't say that then means he is necessary all love and no hate. It means that He is who He is. If we find scripture that defines Him, that is who He is. The issue is simply that we need to take all scripture. Some churches take the NT and all the luvvy duvvy scriptures only :rolleyes:.

God loves all He creates. God hates sin. God can create what He wants. We would all be en-route to heaven if we were at a monkeys intelligence. But since we have intelligence, we are accountable for using or not using it. When we only look at one side of the coin, we are not using it. We then need to ask why? Why the bias? The devil was biased and we know why, he hates God. I know many atheists who hate God and are contsantly biased. I like to hope though that visitors to a Christian site are more open minded. But it seems so marginal :cry:.

That's a legitimate answer. Sometimes it's difficult to explain the notion that God is all-loving. It is in fact better to say "God is Love itself" but even that statement can become misunderstood. It can sound like some sort of whimsical, romantic statement, but isn't mean to be. It is more of a literal statement...but of course, that's not all He is -- and He shouldn't be seen as being only that.

Haha, I know the very type of church on which you're commenting.
 
It's alright--your English is fairly good :)

You flatterer! But I love it!

But back to the case for women as deacons; your sources align with my positions. The term deacon was extended in meaning catechist -- there are many women catechists even today...in fact, there are probably just as many women catechists as men, between laity, Sisters, and Nuns. However, when deacon is to describe an elder of the Church (and this is not the call for all denominations, but it is for the CC), this is a position reserved only for men outside of being a catechist as has been the instructions for centuries.
These subjects can become much more complicated and often require speaking to experts in order to better understand--not just searching online as the Internet can provide false info, too. I recommend contacting your local diocese if you want to confirm that you're right and I'm wrong.
I'm not telling you all of this to try and change your mind--I have no doubt you are convinced of your position, but I do think I owe my position some defense. I can't claim to know everything about everything, but I'm not afraid to speak up in the defense of the things I do know.

The facts of the Bible scientists are clear: Women had priestly church positions, like deacon, l Elder or apostle and evangelist. Most of these ecclesiastical offices do not exist today any more. Or being understood and practiced differently (e.g. the LDS or the NAC). I found a little very much interesting about this on the Internet:

http://www.faithdefenders.com/church-life/WomenEldersintheEarlyChurch.html
http://spectrummagazine.org/node/2305
http://www.theologyforwomen.org/2010/04/women-deacons.html
 
I am just trying to put myself in your shoes here. I must be honest I am battling to see your motivation / heart behind the questions.
My thoughts are... You are 58 (wise). You seem to know scripture well. So why is it that you are only asking these questions now? You know the arguments against God so well and not the counter arguments?
No offence, I know I asked you to post here, but yours is now the third running thread on ''God is bad''.





I have a sister who lives in the USA (Oklakoma). She is a BA Christian. She refuses to have the contact to her family. To me, her "fiendish" sister (she called me actual so); and also not to her own children. I would like to understand why.
I have met many Christians who are against abortions and put women under pressure. Which were against homosexuality and make their homosexual children homeless. I would like to understand why.
And I have learned many terrible things, which was done or not prevented by church leaders (up to popes). I would like to understand why.
All this has to do nothing or only some with theology but much with psychology and sociology. I would like to understand the connections.
And of course I also have an opinion of my own. And I have a try to make criticism and doubts of my own public. For this there is a forum!

If you don't mind, would you mind giving me a defense for God. Pretend you are his advocate and you have no choice but to defend Him. What would you say? You see we do need to take judging God seriously as you and the others on the other threads seem to forget that Jesus is busy defending us before God 1 John 2:1-11. Would you like it if Jesus judged us unfairly?

I can defend only somebody or something, that I know, or I have the proof. And; so suffer it does to me; I do not see any objective proof of an existence of God.
 
You clearly read Gen 19:8, but how did you miss the verses after it? When reading the whole section you will notice...

1. Lot offered His daughters.
2. Lot offered his daughters after they specifically asked for the angels. An argument can hence be made that Lot did not offer his daughters but was being sarcastic.
3.
The angels pulled Lot back inside and made those outside blind. The angels hence, stopped and protected Lot and his family.


Not results from the text; which sex the angels/ambassadors had who came to Lot. The tradition starts out from two men. Two women or a couple could have been, however, just the same well.
Then:
Because it is assumed that these two angels were men, Christians assume that the people were homosexual (or most of them). This acceptance is wrong. Do you know the word "GANG RAPE"? The residents wanted to make exactly this presumable. It was not around sex it was about power. It was all about degrading the two angels, making them to "women".
The two angels let the residents the Bible told, go blind this. So that the family could flee.
Is there proof for this story from other sources? No. This story has to be believed like much in the Bible. Or doubting it as I do it. Because I believe only what is covered by proof.
 
God can create what He wants.



I would like to clarify something. We assume once that your statement would be correct. If so God can create everything he wants and as he wants it; he then really also could create Martians, homosexuals and Germans. Or am I wrong?
Well, I would not be sure at Martians but Germans and homosexuals exist. And if God has created Germans, homosexuals, hermaphrodites, persons with gene defects; why are some Christians then against these people? E.g. why are homosexuals, hermaphrodites and others "special people" ostracized by some of these Christians?
I do not have been valid by a "because the Bible says it so". Why not? Because hermaphrodites are not mentioned in the Bible. And because homosexuality is not described so in the Bible; how some Christians want to make it to the people wise.
 
You flatterer! But I love it!



The facts of the Bible scientists are clear: Women had priestly church positions, like deacon, l Elder or apostle and evangelist. Most of these ecclesiastical offices do not exist today any more. Or being understood and practiced differently (e.g. the LDS or the NAC). I found a little very much interesting about this on the Internet:

http://www.faithdefenders.com/church-life/WomenEldersintheEarlyChurch.html
http://spectrummagazine.org/node/2305
http://www.theologyforwomen.org/2010/04/women-deacons.html

I appreciate the sources. Granted, these are of course biased, but I don't blame you for that--I've provided biases sources too. The best we can do is review them and do further research outside of that.

That said, some of this is either misinterpretation or broadly stated outside of the specific term "deacon" or even "ordained."
For instance, the sacrament of Vocation (aside from marriage) means entering into the priesthood. This means people who being friar, sisters, nuns, monks, and even deacons (this being within the Catholic Church) are not entering into a vocation, but are entering into a religious order.

Ecclesiastical offices (including religious orders) are flooded with women -- both religious and secular (secular meaning laity. For instance, there are secular Franciscans; Franciscans who are laypersons. Many people from my parish are secular Franciscans). But for example, women who run orders of nuns or sisters (Nuns are cloistered, like Carmelites, and Sisters are not) are called Mother Superiors. However, a mother superior is not an authority for her diocese. The authority for any given diocese is a bishop. A deacon or catechist, man or woman (women can be catechists), are not authority figures, still work in service.

The sources you provided gave interesting points, but I think there were some misinterpretations. I'm not one who sides with Sola Scriptura doctrine first off. However, this doesn't mean I think scripture can be put aside either (but I digress). One example where I think there was some misunderstanding is where one source you shared said that women being deacons is Biblical. It referenced 1 Timothy 3:8-13, and put emphasis on verse 11 where it says "Women in like manner must be grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things." But for each other verse, it doesn't address the deacons as "men." It addresses them as deacons -- their being men was implied. Verse 11 expressed that women, like deacons, but be grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things." It's very important to read verses surrounding the forefront verse in dispute in order to avoid mistranslations.

Another of your sources made a statement saying "It's true the apostles were only men, but they were also only Jews, and clergy can be made up of gentiles, and therefore..." But this isn't quite accurate either. It's not 100% confirmed, but 99 to 1 speculate that Luke was gentile. See here.

Ultimately, early writings of "deaconesses" and such, like I mentioned prior, was in regards to catechists. Today, we could refer to them as laity catechists or sisters/nuns. But many of these points can be reviewed here. Again--these are a biased perspective, like yours, but maybe it will allow you to look even further into these points outside of biases. It should at least provide a rationale to the argument of why women are not ordained as priests (and in some denominations, pastors).

Some denominations agree with your statement though that women can be ordained. Namely the Anglican Church and the Episcopalian Church. The rationale for why women should be ordained is noted, and I'm more than familiar to it, but I think there is a stronger case against the argument which ultimately is the righteous one. It's not a point of being chauvinistic or elitist.
 
I have a sister who lives in the USA (Oklakoma). She is a BA Christian. She refuses to have the contact to her family. To me, her "fiendish" sister (she called me actual so); and also not to her own children. I would like to understand why. I have met many Christians who are against abortions and put women under pressure. Which were against homosexuality and make their homosexual children homeless. I would like to understand why. And I have learned many terrible things, which was done or not prevented by church leaders (up to popes). I would like to understand why. All this has to do nothing or only some with theology but much with psychology and sociology. I would like to understand the connections. And of course I also have an opinion of my own. And I have a try to make criticism and doubts of my own public. For this there is a forum!

I can defend only somebody or something, that I know, or I have the proof. And; so suffer it does to me; I do not see any objective proof of an existence of God.
I actually like your English. No spelling mistakes and you sound like Yoda from Star Wars :p.

Christianity = selflessness, sincere love and hating sin Rom 12:9. Yes, there are many bad ambassadors for Christ. You have every right to judge any Christian against scripture. We have opened ourselves up to judgement! ;).

We do have crystal clear advice from Paul on the matter of associating with the evil in 1 Cor 5:9-10 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

So Paul is warning us to not associate with Christians living in extreme sin. But we can with the unsaved. But with the unsaved we are also advised to not cast our pearl before swine Matt 7:6. So, we can see that associating then with the world becomes a matter of judgement too. We, Christians are here to spread the gospel and lead / draw people to Jesus. However rational thought tells us that there is a point where we stop. Proceeding could be detrimental to us. The point where the person we are trying to help, clearly does not want it or have any intention of changing. We have to be lead by the Holy Spirit on that. In Matt 10:14 Jesus gave clear instructions to His disciples to dust their sandals off and move on.

There is another issue to consider in your example. You are family. Scripture is for helping family. I would say that the thresh-hold / tolerance level for family must be ten times higher. A Christian parent will never give up on their children! As long as they are alive their is hope. But you can't blame them for wanting less to do with them if they are now adults and still in an extremity of sin. I have plenty ungodly family. We used to visit often. But now not so much. I would never stop visiting them!!! but I am limiting visits as they don't want to change and come to the light :(.

As for priests / church leaders doing bad things....you must understand that when you commit your life to Jesus. A life of self sacrifice and helping others. The devil hates you! Leaders, married and young Christians are on the top of the devil's and every god-hater's priority list. Lets judge them cautiously with massive understanding please!!
 
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Not results from the text; which sex the angels/ambassadors had who came to Lot. The tradition starts out from two men. Two women or a couple could have been, however, just the same well.
Then:
Because it is assumed that these two angels were men, Christians assume that the people were homosexual (or most of them). This acceptance is wrong. Do you know the word "GANG RAPE"? The residents wanted to make exactly this presumable. It was not around sex it was about power. It was all about degrading the two angels, making them to "women".
The two angels let the residents the Bible told, go blind this. So that the family could flee.
Is there proof for this story from other sources? No. This story has to be believed like much in the Bible. Or doubting it as I do it. Because I believe only what is covered by proof.
You say there is no proof outside of the bible for this story but yet you use a verse of it, out of its context to attack Christianity? That is being deceitful :(.
 
I would like to clarify something. We assume once that your statement would be correct. If so God can create everything he wants and as he wants it; he then really also could create Martians, homosexuals and Germans. Or am I wrong?
Well, I would not be sure at Martians but Germans and homosexuals exist. And if God has created Germans, homosexuals, hermaphrodites, persons with gene defects; why are some Christians then against these people? E.g. why are homosexuals, hermaphrodites and others "special people" ostracized by some of these Christians?
I do not have been valid by a "because the Bible says it so". Why not? Because hermaphrodites are not mentioned in the Bible. And because homosexuality is not described so in the Bible; how some Christians want to make it to the people wise.

Please no ''assuming'' is needed or wanted if we are going to judge God of the bible, just scripture! Yes, God can do whatever He wants, but we know what He did! He created Adam and Eve. They sinned. Sin corrupted us. Sin causes us to go against the natural purpose for which we were created. Sin, NOT God.

Hermaphrodites are the only exception and worth a few words. They are a result of weak genes. Christians are to get on their knees and judge themselves 1 Cor 11:31! in fear and trembling before God Phil 2:12. A hermaphrodite can pass such a session and justify themselves before God on the sexual path they choose. Homosexuals can't because scripture is clear that it is an abomination that angers God.
 
You say there is no proof outside of the bible for this story but yet you use a verse of it, out of its context to attack Christianity? That is being deceitful :(.

I don't want to "attack" Christianity or any kind of faith. But I want to understand, why people believe improvable stories, because "it is written in the Bible". If you would find that story in any kind of book (perhaps "Harry Potter"), than you would see that this is an awful story with a lot of violence against women.
 
I don't want to "attack" Christianity or any kind of faith. But I want to understand, why people believe improvable stories, because "it is written in the Bible". If you would find that story in any kind of book (perhaps "Harry Potter"), than you would see that this is an awful story with a lot of violence against women.
But I showed you that it is not violence against woman.

As for ''provable'' lol, that is a very funny discussion!!

What 2000 year old text would be provable in your opinion? Perhaps if there were video cameras in that day? As we know with evolution that if its on television its true. Perhaps if Obama signed it as true? The fact that the OT ties with the Torah, Paul nor Jesus never eradicated it, the Jews exist and are surrounded by enemies ....should be proof enough. Unless you want to argue that Jesus never existed as many a bold atheist does. You must grasp the fact that the bible is either the word of God or it is not. Jesus, Paul and all the prophets said it is. They have affected history in a way no sane person can deny. If the truth were lost, God would be visiting us personally don't you think? Unless that is you don't believe in God. So where are you at? Where does chasing your tail stop?

There are threads on this subject already, perhaps add your thoughts there if you want an in-depth discussion.
 
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We do have crystal clear advice from Paul on the matter of associating with the evil in 1 Cor 5:9-10 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
If I understand you correctly, you think; that homosexuals and hermaphrodites are immoral. This, however, does not say the Bible. For the authors of the Bible homosexual actions were (so as it was understood at that time), the result of the sin the themselves turn away from God.This becomes considerably this one first letter at Timothy, in Corinthian as well as in the letter of Paul to the romans with Paul in the context. Particularly the first chapter of romans is very interesting and worth reading.
So Paul is warning us to not associate with Christians living in extreme sin. But we can with the unsaved. But with the unsaved we are also advised to not cast our pearl before swine Matt 7:6. So, we can see that associating then with the world becomes a matter of judgement too. We, Christians are here to spread the gospel and lead / draw people to Jesus. However rational thought tells us that there is a point where we stop. Proceeding could be detrimental to us. The point where the person we are trying to help, clearly does not want it or have any intention of changing. We have to be lead by the Holy Spirit on that. In Matt 10:14 Jesus gave clear instructions to His disciples to dust their sandals off and move on.
Please do not be bad when I get very clear now. This form of the thinking is senior primary school teacher custody very much. So it is mentioned in Germany. One expresses the following with that:
"We are in the only possession of the perfect truth. We make the rules. We are it, determine what is right and wrong. Others cannot because they do not have the truth (believe in it) do this.
Every relevant discussion is made impossible with that. Such people behave, that like a contrary child right wants always to keep. Also and this, if it knows itself that it is wrong.
There is another issue to consider in your example. You are family. Scripture is for helping family. I would say that the thresh-hold / tolerance level for family must be ten times higher. A Christian parent will never give up on their children! As long as they are alive their is hope. But you can't blame them for wanting less to do with them if they are now adults and still in an extremity of sin. I have plenty ungodly family. We used to visit often. But now not so much. I would never stop visiting them!!! but I am limiting visits as they don't want to change and come to the light
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This is nothing else but a pressure on the children give anyway. They shall do this, what the parents expect, otherwise they are not loved unconditionally. With horses this is good to see. But people are not animals. They are thinking creatures with feelings.
I know a young man who was transsexual. His parents have beaten first and then thrown him out of the apartment . They said he could come back only again if he were her son again. Do you know what this young man had done? A suicide attempt! He would like to tell the religious parents only this:
"Thanks you for this overly pious attitude. Dad, I know that you touch little children immorally. Mum, I know that you know this and are silent about it. Therefore I claim to have something to do with neither you nor the Christianity."
As for priests / church leaders doing bad things....you must understand that when you commit your life to Jesus. A life of self sacrifice and helping others. The devil hates you! Leaders, married and young Christians are on the top of the devil's and every god-hater's priority list. Lets judge them cautiously with massive understanding please!!
And the evil devil comes again into the game once. Everything is justified with that. This argument is ridiculous because there is not a devil.
Historically can, however, be seen in an interesting way as the faith in the devil arose. Where he appeared and, for the first time. Not in the Christianity or Judaism. Also not in the Islam. But in the Zoroastrianism. The evil devil as an opponent was needed for the "good" God there.
Sigmund Freud wrote about the devil in religions:
"From the evil demon we know that it is designed as an adversary of God and yet his nature is very close ... It does not take much analytical acumen to guess that God and the Devil were originally identical, a single figure, the later two with opposite qualities was disassembled ... It is the well-known process of decomposition us an idea with ... ambivalent content in two sharply contrasting opposites. "
- S. Freud in A Devil neurosis in the Seventeenth Century, The history of the painter Christoph Haitzmann; XIII, pp. 331ff
 
You must grasp the fact that the bible is either the word of God or it is not. Jesus, Paul and all the prophets said it is.

Every successor of JS confirmed at the Mormons that he was a prophet. At the JW, that Russell was inspired by God. Why do they do this? Because they also legitimize the power of their own through this. If JS was a prophet, then also his successors. If Peter was the first pope, then also his successors. It is all a question of faith and a question of power.
Imagine the following once:
The Harry Potter books are 100 years old. Somebody comes and says they would be a kind of Holy Bible. People believe him or her. A religious community comes into being. With hierarchies and rules. Such as Christianity. The founder also refers to the author J.K. Rowling, his office successors. All the stories which tell her are in the harmony with the books of Rowling.
Would this Releigion become legitimate divinely? Do not decide! Because with God the HP books have nothing to do. Just as little the Bible. The Bible, like all other "sacred books"; did you only invent to explain people a little which, at that time, one did not understand. Win around power over people. This can be seen at all religions.
 
If I understand you correctly, you think; that homosexuals and hermaphrodites are immoral. This, however, does not say the Bible. For the authors of the Bible homosexual actions were (so as it was understood at that time), the result of the sin the themselves turn away from God.This becomes considerably this one first letter at Timothy, in Corinthian as well as in the letter of Paul to the romans with Paul in the context. Particularly the first chapter of romans is very interesting and worth reading.
No, you are not understanding me. Hermaphrodite is exempt and can pass judgement with God. Homosexual can't.
Please do not be bad when I get very clear now. This form of the thinking is senior primary school teacher custody very much. So it is mentioned in Germany. One expresses the following with that:
"We are in the only possession of the perfect truth. We make the rules. We are it, determine what is right and wrong. Others cannot because they do not have the truth (believe in it) do this.
Every relevant discussion is made impossible with that. Such people behave, that like a contrary child right wants always to keep. Also and this, if it knows itself that it is wrong.
I am not sure you grasp the scripture there. Perhaps read them in German and then comment?
This is nothing else but a pressure on the children give anyway. They shall do this, what the parents expect, otherwise they are not loved unconditionally. With horses this is good to see. But people are not animals. They are thinking creatures with feelings.
I know a young man who was transsexual. His parents have beaten first and then thrown him out of the apartment . They said he could come back only again if he were her son again. Do you know what this young man had done? A suicide attempt! He would like to tell the religious parents only this:
"Thanks you for this overly pious attitude. Dad, I know that you touch little children immorally. Mum, I know that you know this and are silent about it. Therefore I claim to have something to do with neither you nor the Christianity."
You seem to have missed what I said again. How much are you helping a child by condoning their sin? No Christian should beat their children.

And the evil devil comes again into the game once. Everything is justified with that. This argument is ridiculous because there is not a devil. Historically can, however, be seen in an interesting way as the faith in the devil arose. Where he appeared and, for the first time. Not in the Christianity or Judaism. Also not in the Islam. But in the Zoroastrianism. The evil devil as an opponent was needed for the "good" God there. Sigmund Freud wrote about the devil in religions: "From the evil demon we know that it is designed as an adversary of God and yet his nature is very close ... It does not take much analytical acumen to guess that God and the Devil were originally identical, a single figure, the later two with opposite qualities was disassembled ... It is the well-known process of decomposition us an idea with ... ambivalent content in two sharply contrasting opposites. " - S. Freud in A Devil neurosis in the Seventeenth Century, The history of the painter Christoph Haitzmann; XIII, pp. 331ff
So because Zoroastrianism mentions a devil figure needed to oppose good, you believe it over the bible? Even so your judgement is bad (no offence). A priest is a respected person, why?? It is because he has given up a lot to serve God! His time, his desires.....all gone. Be honest with yourself, can you come close to the same type of self sacrifice? To see a good man stumble is sad, dare we judge him harshly! We are no-where close to him and the predicament he is in. At least he is trying. I am not against disciplining them. But you will throw all priests out becuase some have flaws, really? Don't you think that is ''martian'' reasoning?
 
Every successor of JS confirmed at the Mormons that he was a prophet. At the JW, that Russell was inspired by God. Why do they do this? Because they also legitimize the power of their own through this. If JS was a prophet, then also his successors. If Peter was the first pope, then also his successors. It is all a question of faith and a question of power.
Imagine the following once:
The Harry Potter books are 100 years old. Somebody comes and says they would be a kind of Holy Bible. People believe him or her. A religious community comes into being. With hierarchies and rules. Such as Christianity. The founder also refers to the author J.K. Rowling, his office successors. All the stories which tell her are in the harmony with the books of Rowling.
Would this Releigion become legitimate divinely? Do not decide! Because with God the HP books have nothing to do. Just as little the Bible. The Bible, like all other "sacred books"; did you only invent to explain people a little which, at that time, one did not understand. Win around power over people. This can be seen at all religions.
There is a lot more you have not considered. As I proposed, join the thread where we are already discussing the inerrancy of scripture. This (no offence) just shows me you are still naive on the facts. You really are holding onto assumptions and formulating an opinion off them. There are many facts you are excluding. I don't think you even grasped the few points I touched on.
 
Hermaphrodite is exempt and can pass judgement with God. Homosexual can't.
Unless it turns out that homosexuality is biologically based. And I've yet to meet a gay person who's said, "I was born straight, but decided to be gay". Every single one has been adamant that even from a young age, they've never had anything other than attraction for the same sex.

Who am I to tell them they're wrong? Am I actually going to say I know their thoughts and feelings better than they do?
 
Unless it turns out that homosexuality is biologically based. And I've yet to meet a gay person who's said, "I was born straight, but decided to be gay". Every single one has been adamant that even from a young age, they've never had anything other than attraction for the same sex.

Who am I to tell them they're wrong? Am I actually going to say I know their thoughts and feelings better than they do?

This has become a hotbutton issue among Christians in so many different ways.

1. Some Christians subscribe to the idea that homosexuality on every account is wrong because it is 100% choice. To even begin struggling with it is stepping into sin because it is a choice.

2. Some Christians hold the position that actually homosexuality isn't a sin at all, especially since it is not a choice. That Biblical accounts, like Sodom and Gomorrah, were actually speaking of hospitality and that homosexuality isn't a problem--lust is a problem.

3. Some Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin once it is put into practice. Lustful thoughts (without rejecting them) and actions of homosexuality is a sin, but these would be through choice. However, homosexuality neurologically speaking is more of a handicap that can be battled through prayer, support, will. (Not that it will change one to heterosexual, but like alcoholism still exists among recovering alcoholics, they can still work through it despite the disease being there). In other words, it is something one is born with, but that doesn't make it permissible to practice--it should still be rejected.

4. Some Christians believe that homosexuality is indeed a sin, however when someone close to them (like a son or daughter) comes out of the closet, it is suddenly not a sin because said person happens to be a Christian or a good person, etc.

And then there are Christians who hold these beliefs somewhere between each point.
 
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