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The beast... Can it be Christ?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Bob Jones, Aug 15, 2010.

  1. The beast... Can it be Christ?

    This is broken off the Revelation thread. As I have mentioned, in this method, everything speaks of Christ. What is the implication?

    When I say that Adam is Christ, or that Cain and Abel are Christ, or that Moses is Christ, am I saying that they are literally Christ? Of course not.

    So when I say the beast is Christ, I am NOT saying that he is literally Christ. I am saying that God has used literal history to paint pictures of Christ throughout the Bible and he continues to do it in Revelation. I would go so far, based on my experience, that if a book does not have hidden pictures of Christ within it, it might not be scripture. It might be these pictures that are the fingerprints of God on his word. But that is another topic.

    In this thread, I will only address the following verses, though you may do what you wish.

    Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
    10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
  2. Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom.

    In sensus plenior, God undeniably links wisdom to the searching out of sensus plenior.
    As is the case with any doctrine, it must be supported by two or three witnesses.
    1. Joseph was called wise because he interpreted the symbols of the dream:
    2. Wisdom was required to make Aaron’s garments. Why wisdom? Because knowledge of the symbols embedded in the garments was required.
    3. Wisdom was required of the craftsmen for the tabernacle because knowledge of the symbols embedded in the tabernacle and its implements was required.
    4. Joab chose a wise woman to confront the king with symbolism.
    5. God gave Solomon wisdom with which he wrote the symbolism of the Song of Solomon as a picture of Christ and his bride.
    6. The law was given to make the simple wise:
    and in it is buried a shadow of the good things coming.
    7. God plays in wisdom:
    Number also means “book”. Clouds also means “play”
    Who can write a book and play in wisdom (sensus plenior)?

    8. Wisdom speaks in the streets (life). People lived their lives which painted pictures of Christ.
    9. Three wise men understood the symbols of the time of Jesus birth.

    10. The apostles spoke wisdom in a mystery.
    11. Jesus is the answer to the wisdom riddles:
    12. Wisdom is given to understand the symbols of Revelation:
    There are certainly other aspects of wisdom, but it is apparent that seeking the the symbols… the sensus plenior of the Bible is one of the attributes of the wise.

    John is specifically saying that we need to understand symbols to understand what he says. It would be a grave error to attempt a literal interpretation after such a clear notice.
  3. Riddles within riddles

    Like the wheel within wheels, to solve the mystery of the beast in Rev 17, we must solve several layers of riddles.

    1. Descendants of Adam through Cain are all shadows of Christ
    2. Descendants of Adam through Seth are all shadows of "those who live"
    3. Solve the riddle of two genealogies
    4.'Seven' and 'ten' links Genesis with Rev
    5. The five that are not, the one who is, and the one to come.
    6. The one who is of the seven and is the beast.
    7. Riddle of the beast
  4. Well it says in the literal that "the government" will be on his shoulders .. and since the beast is "the government"

    maybe not . maybe the beast in this redemptive framework would be "the kingdom?" even Daniel calls it "the kingdom" and that the saints would possess "the kingdom" forever and ever .

    but since the kingdom .. is the body of Christ .. it would make sense .. that the head and body be mistaken as one and the same .
  5. Descendants of Adam through Cain are all shadows of Christ


    Means "possession' and 'spear' see Strong's 07013 and 07014. So Cain is the possessor of the spear.

    2Sa 21:16 And Ishbibenob, which was of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of brass, in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have slain David.

    The number 3 is for the Trinity.
    The number 1000 is king.
    The number 100 is the tithe of the King or the church.

    The word for shekels is not in the original.
    Brass means filthiness.

    What is the filthiness of God's church? Sins of the church.

    So the spear represents the sins of the church and Cain means the possessor of the sins of the church. Christ was made to be sin for us.


    Wild donkey. I have mentioned that a donkey always represents a prophet. The prophets mouths are bridled by God. So the riddle here is, In what way is Jesus an unbridled prophet? He is the Son who is also a prophet. He may speak freely because He is the Living Word.

    Smitten by God



    Jubal and Jabal
    Stream and stream
    As double water we may say he is the Word in heaven and earth
  6. Solve the riddle of two genealogies

    We don't need the details of the Genealogies of Seth to solve the riddle.

    10 is the number of the daul-natured man.

    Now notice the difference between the two genealogies. Anything striking?
    Notice how the sons of Seth 'lived' and 'lived' and 'lived'.
    Notice how the word 'lived' is missing from Cain's genealogy.

    This is riddle at it's best.
    The seven Christ's died so that the ten could live.
    The fullness of Christ died so that the dual-natured man could live.
  7. 'Seven' and 'ten' links Genesis with Rev

    Where else in the Bible do we find the numbers seven and ten in close proximity? This is an activity of correlation.

    There are four places:

    The fact that seven and ten are in close proximity only in these places is no accident, and therefor they are related.

    We will get to the others later, but will solve the riddle of Chapter 17 now.
  8. an interesting riddle is .. what about the beast before this beast that gives it .. its power?

    in SP is there a relation between this beast and the previous one beast in revelation and the previous three in daniel?
  9. The five that are not, the one who is, and the one to come.

    We saw that Seth's descedants lived and Cain's descendants died.

    But now we must look at the details.
    Two of the names are on both lists. They were in reality different men, but in the language of riddle we play with the words and ideas.

    Enoch and Lamech are mentioned in both lists.

    Out of the seven, five have fallen

    One is... Enoch walked with God and IS.

    One is to come... Lamech means powerful and Christ is to come in power.

    Five have fallen, one is, and one is to come.
  10. Good question... for another thread ;-)

    I have not solved all the riddles yet. I am doing Rev on the fly. So sometimes I have to say "I don't know yet". These are just observations. Are they silly childish games, or are they the wisdom riddles of God? They sure don't appear to be there by accident.

    Should I quit here so you can solve the riddle of the beast or should I just do it?
  11. The one who is of the seven and is the beast.

    Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    Here are the seven. Which is the beast that was and is not? He must be one of the seven and he can't be Enoch or Lamech since one is and one is to come.

    Cain possesion, spear
    Enoch dedicated
    Irad wild donkey
    Mehujael Smitten by God
    Methusael Man-God
    Lamech Powerful
    Jabal & Jubal Stream, stream

    The only beast on the list is the wild donkey. This represents Christ as the son who is also the prophet.

    The wild donkey is one of the five that 'died' or he 'is not'. When the judge died we see that it is the end of judgment and that now we are in grace. Likewise, when the prophet dies, "prophecies cease" because they have all been fulfilled.

    So we may now say "In fulfillment of prophecy" because the son as prophet died.

    So the eighth is Christ as prophet. But the eighth in Cain's line must also be a shadow of Christ since he is "of the seven". The eighth is also of the seventh generation and is Tubalcain.
  12. Riddle of the beast

    Now we can solve the final riddle of the beast:

    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    In the shadows, Tubalcain means "Leads Cain", or "leads the sins of the church"
    Perdition means destruction.

    The beast that was, and is not, is Christ as the prophet who died which becomes In fulfillment of prophecy.

    So it says: In fulfillment of prophecy Christ leads the sins of the church to destruction.

    Or simply: Christ takes away the sins of the church.

    It is a magnificent riddle hidden in layers.

    Now if it exists in isolation, one may claim it is an accident. But if the rest of Rev can be interpreted like this was, without reference to outside sources, and by using symbols that mean the same everywhere that they occur, then we may need to rethink our previous methods for interpreting Revelation.
  13. first reading the old testament without the holy spirit is stupid.secondly,satan wants you dead and can fill your mind with junk,or junk you will believe to forfit life.third your point has to comply with scripture.
    now all through the old testament it points us to Christ.
  14. Now that you have seen a complex riddle rather than just a word for word one, it should be obvious to the casual observer that it is impossibly insane to try to mix this method with existing preconceptions of eschatology. The beast is a donkey representing Christ as prophet who takes away the sins of the world.

    Is there some future literalist beast that swallows Tokyo? I don't know. Why should I care when I can see Christ in all things. This method puts the cross back at the center of time and history where it belongs.

    I believe Revelation is a Rosetta stone, telling the story of Christ over and over again using the symbols of the Old Testament. That belief has yet to be proven out, since I have been spending the last seven years learning the symbols of the Old Testament. If it turns out to be nothing more than silly Child's play, it has the effect of focusing our meditations upon His Word.

    People get excited when they see faces of Christ in pancakes, I would hope seeing Him fresh in His Word would be a blessing to you.
  15. The beast is a donkey representing Christ as prophet who takes away the sins of the world.

    so your saying Christ is a beast,and power of the first beast,gives a human beastly powers.?
    so your saying God is evil and has no part with Christ or his sinners,and forever they will be food for the evil.?
  16. Nah keep continuing . one of the things i ask quite often is a uniform ethic for interpreting the whole bible . since that is what you're doing . and it points to christ through out the bible . i would like to see more of what you come up with .

    even though i'm kinda using the method intutively to an extent as you say . i learn methods through applying them . i'll probly understand SP more on an intellectual level in either a month or a year . it depends how much God has grown it in me already .

    stay blessed .
  17. does beast not mean the busy bees going to the wicked witch of the east.the Queen blue bee.?
  18. No Bob is talking about the prophetic archtype that Christ fits into in the passage at hand . kinda like Jesus being the scapegoat that takes away the sin of the world . yet goats are not considered good always . Jesus became sin . so we might become the righteousness of God
  19. simple is for simple people,so God won,t make it complicated.
  20. When you read literally . yes . Bob is reading the original language and discyphering riddles embedded into the text . through word play .

    There was a hooplah about something like this in 200BC because there were no vowels between the hebrew letters . so the rabbinic authority added some . but Christ probably knowing this saw what the passages meant without the vowels .

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