Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Grant Melville, Sep 28, 2015.
LOL! I have already offered that proof, but it is rebuffed.
I thought so. I guess repeating over and over is a form of renewing the mind.
Heaven is not the goal but a consequence. Jesus did not come into the world that we might go into heaven.
he came into the world that we might be reconciled to the Father .
In THAT respect he is the DOOR.
I know of no scripture where he is the door to heaven.
To which I replied and acknowledged that the word can be used for EITHER door or gate.
But as I keep saying a gate is not a door .and while the word may be used to denote both that does not give any one license to use either and in the wrong place.
You also have to not only prove not by an assertion but by examples of scripture .
But also answer my objections which re in no way unreasonable.
Then you do not answer why Jesus said in one place he si the door and in another the gates of hell.
Now have you even proved by the langauge by other scripture that you can use either or both.
Using one verse does not prove a truth.
What is a "gate" or a "door"? it is an "entrance" into something. I would have posted this a long time ago, but decided if you can not get the idea that a door is a gate and vise versa and that Jesus is the "door / gate" then we will have problems with this scripture also.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
On the most simplistic level you are right .
But as you well know or should in your own homes you do not have gates but doors .
Even as you have a gate (?) on the outside wall /fence that you also go in and out of.
Did you not read what I said?
I said Islam also thinks that the original langauge is the true word of 'god' . Much then the same as many here who think only the Bible in hebrew or Greek is the Word of God . In THAT regard there is no difference in thinking .
Yes, we have the freedom to use either word in translating and applying thura, which means that no one should have the audacity to stand in opposition of the use of either door or gate. Your objections are unreasonable.
If you would kindly refer to the original language of the New Testament, you would realize that your points are moot.
Then, why do you complicate it?
I really don't care what Islam teaches people to think. It has no bearing on this discussion.
The Bible, in Hebrew, or Greek, or Swahili is still the word of God.
Let's just settle this once and for all, by looking at the words used, and bearing with one another in love, reach a conclusion which is soundly based on the Word of God written.
There appear to be three words translated, either 'door' or 'gate' in the N.T:-
1) 'pule' (G4439)
A noun: meaning a gate, that is, the leaf or wing of a folding entrance (literally or figuratively) - translated, 'gate'.
Ref: Matt. 7:13,14; 16:18; Luke 7:12; 13:24; Acts 3:10; 9:24; 12:10; Heb. 13:12.
2) 'pulon' (G4440)
From G4439; meaning a gateway, door way of a building or city; by implication a portal or vestibule: - Translated: 'gate', 'porch'. Ref: Matt.26:71; Luke 16:20; Ats 10:17; 12:13,14; 14:13; Rev. 21:12,13, 15, 21, 25; 22:14.
* This is the word used in the description of the Heavenly Jerusalem under discussion
3) 'thura' (G2374), meaning a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively). Translated - 'door', 'gate'. Ref: Matt. 6:6; 24:33; 25:10; 27:60; 28:2; Mar. 1:33; 2:2; 11:4; 13:29; 15:46; 11:7; 13:25; John 10:1, 2, 7, 9; 18:16; 20:19,26, Acts 3:2; 5:9, 19, 23; 12:6, 13; 14:27; 16:26,27; 21:30; 1 Cor. 16:9; 2 Cor. 2:12; Col. 4:3; James 5:9; Rev. 3:8; 20:1; 4:1.
* This is the word used, when our Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as 'The Door'; and also, 'I stand at the door and knock', referred to in this discussion.
As you can see the only word translated' gate' (only) is G4430; which is not used in connection with the verses in dispute: the other two have been translated both 'door' and 'gate'.
In Christ Jesus
You're splitting hairs that aren't there...here you go.
*[[Joh 10:7]] KJV* Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
You simply assert you have this freedom .
But neither have proved that you can you use either by other scripture or answered my objections .
For the ONLY reason you or anybody has given is this one verse.
if you could then show and prove that all other verses using the same word 'thura' is consistantly using the word as "gate" then you have a reasonable argument .
if on the other hand the word "thura" is used say in the verse "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it "
Then the English translation into either DOOR or GATE is right .They cannot be both right .or interchangable even though the same original word is used .
For you are applying how English is used with how the word Thura is one thing.
But a GATE is NOT a door and for you to assert it is the same at the most basic level is absurd when you consider the subject matter we are talking about .
So i have both the audacity and liberty to challenge such use of the word THURA as you and others assert .Untill you prove your case ,You do not do so by the one verse .
For nothing is proved in scripture by just one verse .
Far from me being unreasonable it is quite the opposite.
That verse I quoted long ago .
and Im glad you have at least acknowledged it .
Why do I make mention of the difference . Because the Bible makes a difference between a gate and a door .
up to this time I had not even considered it before .
But surely you know the difference between a gate and door?
and even if you did not .
I suspect that further down the road in your understanding of the things of God you will know why the Lord said I am the door of the sheep and not I am the gate of the sheep.
We do have this freedom, praise God!
When objections are baseless, the simple assertion suffices.
You don't make sense. The "gates of hell" phrase uses another word, "pulon".
A gate in this sense it is used in Matthew is also a door, which opens us up to Kingdom life in Christ.
Challenge away! It will lead to a dead end.
That the Lord Jesus Christ is the True and Living way to the Father, (John 14:6)
that we have access into His presence through Him.
He is the entrance into life eternal.
Praise His Name!
In Christ Jesus
'And the twelve gates were twelve pearls;
every several gate was of one pearl:
and the street of the city was pure gold,
as it were transparent glass.'
Coming back to the description of the heavenly Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven to the earth: I believe that this description is to be taken literally. So that we do not look at any part of this description and seek to find allusions to Christ or anything else, but take it as it is and simply believe it, and praise God for this glory which is yet to come. For, ' ... Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.' (1 Cor.2:9 )
'And He that sat upon the throne said,
"Behold, I make all things new."
And He said unto me,
"Write: for these words are true and faithful."'
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I do not say that .
You need the written Word which is the Body of truth and the Spirit of truth to understand it .
God said "MY ways are not your ways and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts"
If words are expressions of thought .The Word of God should have and does a different logic and reasoning of man .
But that does not mean that it is so unreasonable that it is unaccepted or so 'illogical' (by man) that it cannot be followed.
thus i hold the the truth that the Scriptures have a reasoning and logic that is not of man but of God and according to Gods mind.
Pauls letter to the Romans and Hebrews being the finest example of that reasoning and logic expounding the scriptures of the Old testament as well as the development of their and the Lords teaching .
What he did show was that to prove his case as to the nature of sin and that both Jew and gentile were both sold unto sin and that he is bound by the alw of sina nd death etc .He states the problem then gives the answer . But in an argument much like a lawyer does or an appeal judge .That needs to be followed .
To what end? That we might by that following arrive at or come to a knowledge of the truth even as he has . in the matter .
he did not give just a list of scriptures but gave an argument salted with all or any scripture that was relevant to the subject and his argument .
Did not God say "Let us reason together"? Did he not in one place lay before them how they saw things or in other words perceveid and reasoned the matter and then gave his perceptions and reasoning on the same matter and said Judge ye make righteous judgement .
The scriptures then are Gods testament or record of how he see things and that we may see or understand things as he sees or saw them and to come to righteous judgement .Both about ourselves about God the world the flesh and the devil.
To avoid those errors and failures others made who were "given for our ensample" and to know what will happen if we do the same .For God is the same yesterday today and forever .
You only come to a knowledge of the truth then as it is in Christ if you are willing to follow HIm who leads us into all truth . Principally by His word .
For what is written is the FOUNDATION of our faith in God in any matter . As it is also the foundation for all sound doctrine and as the scripture says is "good for reproof ,correction and instruction in righteousness ...."
Hence the attacks on the Bible the myriad of versions which God does not need nor man.
The slow but steady increase in the idea that on the one hand its only the Spirit that is needed and the other extreme its only the scriptures that are needed coupled with the original langauge .
If you have the but the Word of God you dry up.
If you have bu the Spirit of God you blow up.
But if you have the Word of God and the Spirit of God you will grow up.
The Spirit of truth which has come to abide forever is how we know the spirit of error .
The descent of this posting of door and gate is a classic case of taking the original langauge as the final authority rather than the Spirit of truth who would have have separated a word that can mean two different but on a basic level similar things and use them in their right context.
In this case a door is an internal or to a house .
and a gate is the entrance to the external wall. as in a city wall.
You do not say nor can that the front door of your house is a front gate .
The annointing then teaches us the difference between truth and error or good and evil and by him we do not need any to teach us good from evil which by practice we learn to do. (In comparison the garden of Eden)
The Spirit of truth then will lead us by the Word and they too do not disagree.
I should further add that the Spirit of God can give you the wisdom to argue your case even as he gave Stephen such wisdom as his arguments could not be gainsaid .
In the beginning was the WORD.
That is the primary order of God .
"No man knoweth the father save the Son and no man knoweth the Son save the father ..............."
God saves people by the foollishness of preaching .
He also perfects people by the same process .
The unsaved man neither seeks God nor desires to do so . For he is at emnity with God. and will not allow even the very thought of Gods existence come into his mind or thinking .
So God will first by the preaching speak to a mans own heart and reveal the truth to himself tow ho he does know .
In such a way that is is undeniable . Yet men can and do deny it. If that is the case he will use a mans own life and decisions to teach him that what the Word of God says is true ."The heart of man is desperately wicked and decietful above all others and who can know it ."?
If a man cannot recognise or confess the truth about himself who he does know ,How will he recognise of confess the truth about God who he does not?
and if he is not willing to be led by God to the truth about himself who he does know how then can God lead him to the truth about God who he does not?
If then he will not speak the truth about himself who he does know .He will not then speak the truth about God who he does not.