Gerald,
Thank you for the information and viewpoints on my questions. I appreciate your time and concern.
Jane
Thank you for the information and viewpoints on my questions. I appreciate your time and concern.
Jane
The Aramaic Translation
- Thread starter featherstonejane
- Start date
- Status
Thanks for your question it is hard to explain in text rather then person but I will give it a better try
In Greek there are 6 different words for our 1 word 'love' we do however have an understanding of this for example you can love a certain food or activity but we understand that's completely different from loving a partner or child, and as believers we also know that the love of God is even greater. Here are 4 of the words with a better explanation of each:
Agape: brotherly love, charity; the love of God for man and of man for God - the highest love possible for Christians
Eros: mostly of the sexual passion - intimate love
philía: affectionate regard, friendship - to be fond of someone
Storge: love for family members exclusively - love in acceptance for relations
In the scripture John 21:15-17 the two words agape love and philia love are used in following way:
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you (agape) love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I (philia) love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you (agape) love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I (philia) love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you (philia) love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you (philia) love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I (philia) love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.
I find this fascinating because this scripture never seemed to make sense to me, until I heard this explanation in the Greek. Jesus was asking him if he loves Him with the deepest love possible and Peter kept replying that he only loved Him in a fond or friendship sort of way, until the third time Jesus then askes do you love me (are you even fond of me?) that is why Peter was grieved by the question the third time, knowing his love wasn't as great as Jesus was asking.
I hope this clarifies it a bit better and how the Greek makes a huge difference in these verses particularly. I think when we first come to Jesus many of us are only fond of Jesus in a friendly sort of way, but He actually requires a higher love for Him then anyone or anything else after all He is the son of God! This requires time and effort on our part as of course Peter would eventually love Him with the highest love he could.
Blessings,
Dave
Last edited:
Thanks for your question it is hard to explain in text rather then person but I will give it a better try
In Greek there are 6 different words for our 1 word 'love' we do however have an understanding of this for example you can love a certain food or activity but we understand that's completely different from loving a partner or child, and as believers we also know that the love of God is even greater. Here are 4 of the words with a better explanation of each:
Agape: brotherly love, charity; the love of God for man and of man for God - the highest love possible for Christians
Eros: mostly of the sexual passion - intimate love
philía: affectionate regard, friendship - to be fond of someone
Storge: love for family members exclusively - love in acceptance for relations
In the scripture John 21:15-17 the two words agape love and philia love are used in following way:
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you (agape) love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I (philia) love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you (agape) love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I (philia) love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you (philia) love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you (philia) love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I (philia) love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.
I find this fascinating because this scripture never seemed to make sense to me, until I heard this explanation in the Greek. Jesus was asking him if he loves Him with the deepest love possible and Peter kept replying that he only loved Him in a fond or friendship sort of way, until the third time Jesus then askes do you love me (are you even fond of me?) that is why Peter was grieved by the question the third time, knowing his love wasn't as great as Jesus was asking.
I hope this clarifies it a bit better and how the Greek makes a huge difference in these verses particularly. I think when we first come to Jesus many of us are only fond of Jesus in a friendly sort of way, but He actually requires a higher love for Him then anyone or anything else after all He is the son of God! This requires time and effort on our part as of course Peter would eventually love Him with the highest love he could.
Blessings,
Dave
I have two responses to your post.
One is that the Bible tells us to love not the things of this world. So to say we love a certain food or activity is really an incorrect use of the word love. We should be using the word enjoy (1 Timothy 6:17). Love should only be refered to loving people (as God has commanded) and God Himself and His Word (which is just as much a manifestation of the Holy Spirit as any other work that God has performed).
My other response is to your and geralds views on John 21: 15-17. While i can agree with what you both said... i believe that the reason why Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him was to reinstate him into the ministry, due to the fact that Jesus said anyone who denies Me will i deny before My Father in heaven (Matthew 10:33). Thus He had to have Peter acknowledge Him before his friends and Jesus so that Jesus could use Him as the rock of the church as Jesus had prophesied in His changing his name to Cephas (John 1:42....And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.)
Blessings
Thanks for your question it is hard to explain in text rather then person but I will give it a better try
In Greek there are 6 different words for our 1 word 'love' we do however have an understanding of this for example you can love a certain food or activity but we understand that's completely different from loving a partner or child, and as believers we also know that the love of God is even greater. Here are 4 of the words with a better explanation of each:
Agape: brotherly love, charity; the love of God for man and of man for God - the highest love possible for Christians
Eros: mostly of the sexual passion - intimate love
philía: affectionate regard, friendship - to be fond of someone
Storge: love for family members exclusively - love in acceptance for relations
In the scripture John 21:15-17 the two words agape love and philia love are used in following way:
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you (agape) love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I (philia) love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you (agape) love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I (philia) love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you (philia) love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you (philia) love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I (philia) love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.
I find this fascinating because this scripture never seemed to make sense to me, until I heard this explanation in the Greek. Jesus was asking him if he loves Him with the deepest love possible and Peter kept replying that he only loved Him in a fond or friendship sort of way, until the third time Jesus then askes do you love me (are you even fond of me?) that is why Peter was grieved by the question the third time, knowing his love wasn't as great as Jesus was asking.
I hope this clarifies it a bit better and how the Greek makes a huge difference in these verses particularly. I think when we first come to Jesus many of us are only fond of Jesus in a friendly sort of way, but He actually requires a higher love for Him then anyone or anything else after all He is the son of God! This requires time and effort on our part as of course Peter would eventually love Him with the highest love he could.
Blessings,
Dave
Thanks .
But I have a problem with this explination.
You do not make clear if the Greek says specifically all three types of love are used when the Lord asks Peter three times.
For what seems more probable was the Lord with each question asked Pater if he loved him the deeper love .
I love God because he first loved me. Here in is love not that I loved God but that God loved me and that while I was yet a sinner and without strength He sent Christ to die for me .
It would be churlish at the very least if I loved God in a freiendly sort of way. in response to his love for me .
Indeed did not Jesus say they who are forgiven much love much?
A young man may be raised up in a christian household and by the grace of Goid is saved at a young age who has not squandered his life over much on rioteous living etc. A person who gest saved at a young age is a life saved as well a s a soul.
You migth argue that he ahs been forgiven less than one who was plucked out of the fire.
But any mediotations on the cost of our salvation will prove to the heart how much God loves us and demands a corresponding love . For the love where in w ehave been loved we return to God in love .
So the ><ords questions were what I call searching questions and each question dug or searched deeper into Peters heart .
In the end Peter had to reply you know all things that I love you . For despite hsi denial of the Lord .The Lords forevision had made provision for him. and had prayed for him so that when the moment came when he ahd denied the Lord (Not betrayed) the third time the Lord turned and looked at him and both thier eyes met .
Peter not only then remebered what the Lord had said but the Look of the Lord peirced his heart . Not in condemnation ; for he did that himself .
Your last statement then has soem truth in it .Inso far as often when people get saved it is a rather selfish state of affairs and motive, and our commitement and obedience to God is partial .Even as Abrahams was in the beginning .
But as we walk with the Lord we learn; too slowly I think and our love deepens and our commitment grows and our faith with it . For faith worketh by love .
If you love me you will obey my commandments .Abraham grew in his love for God and as he did so his commitment become more committed untill it was total and perpetual.
So you need to clarify for me if each time the Lord asked was the greek word different>?
I have to say though for the record . That even as the English translation is now beign corrupted and changed to suit mens appetite. So also I am of the conviction that the Greek and Hebrew also .
For I do not believe you need to understand the GReek or Hebrew to understand the Word of God . It is a discerner of the thoughts and inetnts of the heart be it in any of them.
as well as light when it enters the heart.
Thus I do not believe that the Lord would have asked the final time do you 'love' me as in freindship etc. But as in agape . with the love of God .
For you cannot love the sheep or feed them with friendlyness.
Peter before the resurection (it is always before) loved the Lord with his natural passion or love . It was not enough either to save him or enable him to stand in the day of trial.
After the resurection and with the Lords searching and work his love was with the love of God that could endure all things etc as the fruit of love as given in scripture.,
For that is the love of God .
Which is unfathomable . and to which Peter could only reply to the Lord "You know that I love you"
Gods love for me is unfathomable .Yet I know that God loves me .
His love has been shed abroad in my heart so that not only do I love God but love my neighbour as myself and my enemy .
That is easy to say and freely admit it . But it must be so by faith according to scripture and in turn must become my experience also.
Abide in my love the Lord said .
To abide in HIS love then is all we have to do really . For if we do , not only does faith worketh by love ,but to love others as God has loved me then becomes a light or easy thing and not heavy and wearisome .
If our love waxes then we needs must go to the cross and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks of better things than the blood of Abel.
Peter on that beach found out that he loved God with all of his heart but only God could know it .He could not express it .
Some one has said "It cost God everything to give us something for nothing .It will cost us everything to keep it "
in Christ
gerald
If the greek is true then I can love food in a freindly sort of way .But should not love food so that my god is my belly.
I would also agree that the Lord made sure that Peter knew he was still in the Lords thoughts . For he made mention of Petet by name to ensure he was there the next time the lord made himself known.,
You are though mistaken as to Peter being the Rock .
For the Old testement says WHO the Rock is in Deut . as also they who hear the words of the lord and do them . He likened them unto a wise man who dug deep and built his house upon a rock.
You cannot build an eternal church on a son of adam.
You build an eternal church on the eternal SON of God.
God in his wisdom showed Peters failures and weakness not to parade him so. But to show who was the rock who never failed and in whom Gods strength is perfected .
in Christ
gerald
Well then i guess you will have to take your arguments up with Jesus. He is the one Whom said it.
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I pray that the Lord richly Blesses you!
He has and he does and he will.
ONE verse does not make a doctrine .
and there are so many other verses that show GOD is the rock. It is only an insidious false teaching that will take one verse and make a mountain out of it .
in Christ
gerald
I keep thinking about what you said...and the best thing to do is to study what you know to be true with the strongs definitions, and the Holy Spirit (which is most important). Jesus said in John 16 that the Spirit of truth will lead you into all truth.... 13)Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come .......Then if you run into things like this aramic translation, then as you have already studied with the Holy Spirit.....you will know if it is not right or not.
Blessings
Cturtle,
I agree with that. Not only that, I pray over it!
Lord, let me know the TRUTH when I encounter it and let me be listening when you tell me what that TRUTH is. Amen.
Thanks cturtle!
Great! That is what we must all do, and know that the Lord hears and answers that kind of humble prayer, always!
Thanks for your question it is hard to explain in text rather then person but I will give it a better try
In Greek there are 6 different words for our 1 word 'love' we do however have an understanding of this for example you can love a certain food or activity but we understand that's completely different from loving a partner or child, and as believers we also know that the love of God is even greater. Here are 4 of the words with a better explanation of each:
Agape: brotherly love, charity; the love of God for man and of man for God - the highest love possible for Christians
Eros: mostly of the sexual passion - intimate love
philía: affectionate regard, friendship - to be fond of someone
Storge: love for family members exclusively - love in acceptance for relations
In the scripture John 21:15-17 the two words agape love and philia love are used in following way:
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you (agape) love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I (philia) love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you (agape) love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I (philia) love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you (philia) love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you (philia) love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I (philia) love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.
I find this fascinating because this scripture never seemed to make sense to me, until I heard this explanation in the Greek. Jesus was asking him if he loves Him with the deepest love possible and Peter kept replying that he only loved Him in a fond or friendship sort of way, until the third time Jesus then askes do you love me (are you even fond of me?) that is why Peter was grieved by the question the third time, knowing his love wasn't as great as Jesus was asking.
I hope this clarifies it a bit better and how the Greek makes a huge difference in these verses particularly. I think when we first come to Jesus many of us are only fond of Jesus in a friendly sort of way, but He actually requires a higher love for Him then anyone or anything else after all He is the son of God! This requires time and effort on our part as of course Peter would eventually love Him with the highest love he could.
Blessings,
Dave
Hello dave,
There is another view to this bit about Jesus asking Peter 3 times if He loved Him.
Mathew 10:33 who ever denies Jesus before men - Jesus will deny them before the Father.
Jesus knew He had to keep His word as peter was concerned but Jesus Loved Peter very much so He showed them how to fix this for Jesus was not about to let this come to pass where He would have to deny Peter before the Father.........
What Jesus did is the hebrew word Dabar "Daw-baw"
In the Hebrew Bible, dabar is sometimes used in reference to the "Divine Word", and in an active sense as a "word event", or prophetic words.
Jesus made it right or canceled out the 3 denials of Peter by getting Him to replace them with YES I Love YOU. One for each denial....
It is the same for us in this day and hour. We say something dumb like I aint never gonna get ahead in this life.....We repent and then speak what Gods word says about it.
Now then LOVE
God is Love -
We Love God
We Love the things of God
We Love People
1John 2:15 Love Not the things of this world...
No sir God is Love..........to take the word love and attach it to anything other then God or the things of God like His word or People is confusing the issue here. God is Love
Oh I love hamburgers or I love my new shirt or socker. This either tries to bring God down to a hamburger level or take a hambuger up to Gods level. Both can not ever be.
1 Timothy 6:17 Tells us that God gives us All Things Richly To Enjoy......
Now you know what it means to not love the things of this world.........
People have taken the word love and tried to make all sort of different levels of this word.
No sir - God is Love point Blank.......We can Love God and His word and the ways or things of God and we can Love people.............there is NO other form or sense of the word Love.
Man has been derailing words and meanings for centuries but it still does not make it so.
God Bless
Jim
Brother Gerald...........My King James Bible says in John 1:42 and in Matthew 16:18
Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas " (which is translated Peter). .... There the Lord said, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock,"
So lets take the the false teaching and making doctrine stuff elsewhere..........
Jesus is the cornerstone the rock yes ----Jesus also called Peter the rock He would build His church on.......
Why try to argue over what is written In Gods word ?
Blessings
Jim
Oh you mean like standing there ? Jesus said this to Peter at the first meeting of Peter and Jesus. Peter did not utter anything. Peter had no revelation at this point.....
Meaning what Jesus would do through peter and or the revelation that Perter would later get about Jesus.. Is this what you mean ?
The Arabic word for God is ilah. "Al" is the Arabic word for "the" . This blended then arrives at the word for deity, creator, 'God' in in Arabic: Allah = The god. The creator described in the Koran has 99 names and is a pagan moon deity originating in ancient Sumerian culture.
Muhammad was a traveling merchant and he was aware of this tradition of worship being he ventured to areas where the moon god of Summer was revered. That god is a singular entity. The Koran says he begat no earthly son. Isa, which is the Arabic name for, the Muslim name for Jesus, was a slave of Allah and a minor prophet. Muhammad is said to be the prophet, not the son, of the god Allah.
Don't worry then because the word for God in Aramaic is not the same as the term for creator in Arabic. And also of course the God of Christianity is triune, not singular.
Great thread. I think Aramaic is fascinating and since I heard it spoken in the movie, "Passion of the Christ", I too am interested in your find of a Bible translation using Jesus' first language.
Muhammad was a traveling merchant and he was aware of this tradition of worship being he ventured to areas where the moon god of Summer was revered. That god is a singular entity. The Koran says he begat no earthly son. Isa, which is the Arabic name for, the Muslim name for Jesus, was a slave of Allah and a minor prophet. Muhammad is said to be the prophet, not the son, of the god Allah.
Don't worry then because the word for God in Aramaic is not the same as the term for creator in Arabic. And also of course the God of Christianity is triune, not singular.
Great thread. I think Aramaic is fascinating and since I heard it spoken in the movie, "Passion of the Christ", I too am interested in your find of a Bible translation using Jesus' first language.
Thr rock is the who CHRIST is not who Peter is a little stone.
it is not faith in Peter or then by default the Pope that overcometh the world but faith in Christ ,
It is not Peter who is infallible or by inheritence the pope"incorruptable " it is Jesus .
It is not Peter s in whom we put our faith in nor the the pope but the Lord.
it is not Peter or then the Pope we should call our father . But God.
Was it not Peter who the Lord rebuked "get behind me Satan?
Was it not Peter that the Lord had to pray for because Satan had dewsired to sift him like wheat?
Was it not Peter who chose the wrong method to repalce Judas .
Was it it Peter who confessed Pauls letters where "hard to understand"?
Was it not Peter who Paul had to rebuke openly before the church for his hypocracy?
I do not list these things to show all his faults but to show what a "little stone he was" Not the Rock upo which you cna build a church.
You may then list these.
It was Peter who was the first to speak on the day of Pentecost.
It was Peter who spoke the words Thou art the Christ the Son of the l,iving God.
It was Peter with Jamed and John who always "went a little further" with the Lord than all the rest of the disciples.
It was Peter who the Lord gave to the kingdom of God in that it was he who first preached to the Jews the Gospel of Jesus Christ and was the first to preach the gosple or opened the door to the Gentiles.
But once opened cannot be closed again by any man . For when that door will be closed like the ark will be closed by God.
In matters of Biblical understanding .Peter acknowledged that Paul was greater.
In matter of living and walk it was Paul who rebuked Peter.
In matters of a replacement apostle it was Paul who was the replacement "taken out of time" he was therefore wrong to suppose you cna make a replacement by LOT .
It was Paul who wrote more did more preached more and was in so many ways if you wanted to so measure such a thing (not wise ) the first among the Apostles . and was and is the measure by which we should measure all who call themselves an Apostle for he is the true pattern of one and while another is hardly likely to be equal to him in the measure of any Apsotle they must follow the pattern of one that he laid down as in life, doctrine and so on.
Popes who claim many things and assert a great deal do not measure up or follow the pattern of an Apostle .
For while The Lord and any true Apostles that foll,ow him did not Lord it over the flock or lifted themsleves up and allowed men to crown them and carry them upon their shoulders nor claimed infallibility . Save the Lord Himself .
Popes and much of ehat they teach has been proven false by word and dced .
Moreover Peter was the apsotle to the Jews . Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles .
and in as much as there IS proof that Paul was in Rome .
There is no evidence at all that Peter was .
The list is too long both in showing the errors of the Roman church or the scriptures that prove that God is the Rock.
If you still assert only that ONE verse and claim that Jesus was saying Peter was the rock .
Then you will have to show prove and reconcile ALL the other scriptures that says God is the rock who was first the Rock os Israel then was revealed was the rock of the church .
In whom there is both Jew and gentile or rather one new man.
In Christ
gerald
The Arabic word for God is ilah. "Al" is the Arabic word for "the" . This blended then arrives at the word for deity, creator, 'God' in in Arabic: Allah = The god. The creator described in the Koran has 99 names and is a pagan moon deity originating in ancient Sumerian culture.
Muhammad was a traveling merchant and he was aware of this tradition of worship being he ventured to areas where the moon god of Summer was revered. That god is a singular entity. The Koran says he begat no earthly son. Isa, which is the Arabic name for, the Muslim name for Jesus, was a slave of Allah and a minor prophet. Muhammad is said to be the prophet, not the son, of the god Allah.
Don't worry then because the word for God in Aramaic is not the same as the term for creator in Arabic. And also of course the God of Christianity is triune, not singular.
Great thread. I think Aramaic is fascinating and since I heard it spoken in the movie, "Passion of the Christ", I too am interested in your find of a Bible translation using Jesus' first language.
In what you say is the Arabic "The God" is proof alone that it is not the God of Abraham .Who reveals himself as Father and God.
and Jesus taught "OUR Father " Not the god .
They by thier own words show they know not God at all but as an unknown 'the god'
Not even by that are they speaking of GOD who is God . But rather of thier idol they call 'god'
Many idols have been called 'god'
That does not then mean they are all GOD!
and even as Paul and James both used the word "works" Did not mean as some have supposed that they were both talking about the same works"
For one was speakign about works of faith or of righteousness . and the other was speakign of works of ones own hands of the flesh (of Cain) the unrightoeus works then that cannot save nor are acceptable to God.
The movie the passion of Christ like all hollywood movies mixes truth with fiction or lies.
For visually it made a great impression on the MIND .
But the man being a devout catholic insinuated some very fameous catholic falsehoods . The cloth with the Lords face on it for instance .
another error that many hold catholic or not .Was that the Lord was either afraid of the cross or was seekign to avoid it and only at the end was willing .
In truth far from drawing many to the cross as it were will in fact do the reverse and many will not go to the cross because of it .
For by only looking at such suffering the flesh will naturally flinch from it .
The impression then on the mind will and has Im sure put such a 'picture' in the mind and imagination that will make men recoil from the truth rather than embrace it .
Plus the physical suffering was nothing in compared to the Spiritual agony of one "who knew no sin" to become sin or indeed the mental agony of beign forsaken by God for our sakes .
if the physical suffering said any thing it reflected the graver suffering of the other.
But what says the scriptures? "For the joy that was set before him he endured the cross even the death of the cross"
That was never or could be conveyed on film .But what it did convey was that doe eyed, feeble and pathetic 'picture' of the Lord which the Roman church loves to portray in all her graven images.
That is as far removed from the truth as it si possible to get. As all graven images do .
In Christ
gerald
- Status