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The Adam’s Scratch

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by netchaplain, Feb 4, 2016.

  1. I believe one of the most helpful concepts about God is that of His "omniscience." Understanding that He has always had knowledge of all things reveals much of His will and desires in the Scriptures. For example, when He commanded Adam not to partake of the "Tree of knowledge of good and evil" (Gen 2:17) He already knew Adam would disobey and since He allowed this act, I perceive negligible conflict with the concept that God used this occurrence to further reflect on His "image and "likeness" (Gen 1:26) in knowing that man would more so "become like one of Us, to know good and evil" (Gen 3:22).

    One can know something and not understand it, but receive its understanding through experience, which in my comprehension was likely God's plan. The word "know" in Hebrew is yada' (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3045&t=KJV), and in the context of the above passage it is most sensibly applied with the definition "to understand, perceive, or discern." Since man already knew (knowledge but no understanding) what was good by what God "commanded," and "evil" by what He forbid (Gen 2:16, 17), the design of the word "know" here can be reasonably intended in sense to understand or comprehend.

    I enjoy sharing a humorous thought that God could have said, "I already know you're going to disobey Me, but don't." This could have confused Adam, causing him to begin scratching his head in perpetual contemplation, and today instead of the "Adam's Apple" (which I believe can be analogous to the first bight lodged in the throat to hinder swallowing it) it could be the "Adam's Scratch"!

    - NC
     
  2. When the devil said "ye shall be like God knowing both good and evil" it should be understood that the devil is a liar from the beginning and the father of all lies .
    "Let us make man in our image " wrapped up in that is also the truth "man shall not live by every tree that was good to eat , but by that word that came forth out of Gods mouth as to what was good and what was evil to eat .and by that word they lived .
    It was the rejection of that word and believing the word of the devil that they in consequence died.
    It should be understood that the words that come forth from the mouth have no force unless a mans breath or life give it voice .
    How much the more then the Word of God?
    That word then as to what was good and what was evil was not as it were a poster on the wall or letters written in ink and which then they did not understand or 'know' what was good or evil.
    But with the Word came also the understanding. That this was good to eat and that was evil to eat .
    On the London underground platforms you will often see a sign on the wall that says danger of death do not step on the rails .
    Looking at the rails there is no evidence per se of such danger .
    save to a man of understanding that you can see the isolating ceramic buds under the electified railway line .
    if you ignored the sign and touched them you would find out two things . The sign spoke the truth and you are about to die or are .
    true it is that God knows the end from the beginning . But we should not ascribe to God any other nature than what he says of Himself .
    Many people say God gave man freedom of choice . That like many insinuations of the devil as in 'ye shall be like God' is only partly true but the general understanding of it is wrong .
    For God did not give Adam a free choice either to do good or to do evil.
    For in these words where do you find that choice?
    "Of all the trees in the garden you may freely eat , but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil , ye shall not eat , for in the day ye eat thereof ye shall surely die"
    I see nothing in that command that gave Adam the liberty to eat that which God forbade.

    What God DID give Adam was the liberty to choose any good he found to eat and he DID give him the liberty to eat of the tree of life .For he said of ALL the trees in the garden you may freely eat ....
    The ONLY tree he forbade them to eat thereof was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
    But before they partook of the tree of life they were diverted to eat of the tree that brought them death.
    A good question to ask then was why was there a tree of life which gave them eternal life. For if they had not eaten of that other tree they would never have died. and would therefore still be walking this earth today .
    It cannot be said though some wickedly say so .That it was Gods will that they should sin and eat of it .
    For God declared HIS will when he told them what was good to eat and what was evil to eat and by that declared that Gods eternal will was (and still is ) that man should live and not die .
    By that then we may ask ourselves whos will then did Adam and Eve do in the end?>
    Certainly their own . But ultimately not Gods will but the devils.

    Only God is incorruptable .
    Therefore all that he created "in the beginning" was potentially corruptable . For the creation is not God .
    Though many worship the creation rather than the creator.
    Yet that creation so created was not then corrupted nor then was man .
    It was not Gods will that man be corrupted and die .For he told them otherwise . " for in the day ye eat thereof ye shall surely die" and is it not written "all things are upheld by the word of His power"? and that man shall not LIVE by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"?
    They would never have died then if they had not eaten of that tree. and would still be walking this earth today.
    "For sin entered the world and death through sin"
    Even as the "last Adam" would never had died unless he had laid down his life si willingly for sin . For he had not sinned either and so could not die nor was subject to it .and by that would still be walking this earth in the flesh today as he was then.

    So why the tree of life? which before they had free access to ;"of all the trees in the garden you may freely eat"
    But after they had eaten of the other they were barred from eating of it "lest they live FOREVER in their sin"
    It is far better 'knowing' that this is poison to eat than to experience that it is .
    For to experience that it is poison will kill you.
    Thus they already knew what was good and what was evil to eat . But were deceived to eat that which was evil to eat for EVE "SAW that it was good to eat" and thus in effect did that which was right or good in her own eyes .Rather in the sight of God and she REASONED thus "it would make her wise "
    Adam who had been given the Word from God did far worse . He knew it was evil to eat .But loved his wife more than God and effectively obeyed his wife above God.
    They both ate of it and in truth "their eyes were opened " But they did not become like God because God does no evil nor partakes of it . Yet His eyes are indeed open .
    But their eyes were opened to the evil they had done and to their nakedness.

    God has not changed.

    When a person is truly BORNagain he does but enter that eternal will of God even from the beginning and form before the foundations of the world .
    It is worth noting also that in the epistles "By reason of use we learn what si good and what is evil" By Him who leads us into all truth .

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  3. Hi Gerald - Thank you for the reply and sincere comments. My intention of the OP is to show that it is my belief that God could not say they were not suppose to do what they did, because He knew they would, even when instructing them not to (or even from eternity past). Thus it is my understanding that if what transpired was not the way God desired to teach man, He would have done it a different way, and if you're omniscient you never need a plan B.

    Thus, everything anyone thinks, says or does has already been worked out by God to result in the accomplishment of good concerning His will. His will (but not His desire) is that unbelievers perish and believers live.

    Even though God "desires to have all men to be saved" (1Tim 2:4), and "does not desire that any should perish" (1Pet 3:9), He is always right and good concerning His will. Though to us the perishing of unbelievers is sad, God's will in condemning them is right and good! Thus, regardless of what occurs it has always resulted to the good of God's will.

    God's blessings to your Family, and blessed be God.
    Love Between the Saints
    Robert
     
  4. Two gifts were imparted to Adam (and thereby us) which are part of God: #1 creative reproduction with a spirit (i.e. our children); #2 free will to choose.
     
  5. I cannot nor do accept that ' God could not say they were not supposed to do what they did ' For that would make God a liar .Which he is not .
    For if a man says one thing and thinks differently in his heart or by your 'belief' that while God DID say they were not supposed to eat of it .But in his heart thought they should(?) or could(?) either way would be wrong .
    That is called lying.
    God is light and in Him there is no darkness nor shadow of turning .
    God is a God of order and in the order of God that is the order of things.
    Jesus said " sin must come but woe to him by whom it comes"
    Your perception of God then is faulty at best and while I will not presume anything outside the Word of God .
    Perhaps in the light of what you say consider the word of God that says when all the animals came before Adam . "God waited to see what Adam would call them."
    Your beleif is akin to fatalism . This is not true.
    God has given life to all things that have life including man and there are no strings attached.
    each creation that has life and breath lives it life however long or short it may be and are free to do so .
    Man in that regard is no different in that God created him in His own image .
    All of creation is free when it fullfills that for which it was created for or is .
    Man is no different .
    Man was not only created in the image of God he was created to enjoy God and walk and have felowship with His creator .
    Anything other than that man is ';lost and undone as he tries to be what he was not created for.
    Man was created for teh light and for the truth .
    His body suffers if he is kept out of the light . His default is that eh expects always to be told the truth and not lied to .Though he knows he has not always told the truth.
    God does not have a plan B .
    But we should remember that God is righteous and just in all his ways .
    He cannot then say oen thing and do or think another.
    But gave the first Adam every thing that was needed to LIVE .and even inherit eternal life .
    It was of man then not of God that he chose to do that which was good in his own eyes .
    As you say God is omniscient but that does not make God a partaker of mans sin or the instigator of it .
    It is man who was guilty not God.
    Truly is it written "the arm of flesh will fail you"
    But there was no plan B . For the first Adam was a figuere of Him who was to come ."
    The first Adam failed in a paradise the last Adam conquered in a wilderness .
    Adam all but blamed God "the woman thou gavest me ......"
    Eve blamed the serpent "the serpent deceived me
    God dealt with each Justly . Adam and Eve with a curse but tempered with mercy the devil got nothing but ashes and dust .

    You are also wrong concerning his will.
    For God clearly stated HIS will to Adam .
    As he has also stated HIS will to all including John 3:16

    That NONE should perish .
    If men do perish they as in the beginning refused His will and did their own and what was good in their own eyes .
    If they perish it is because they have rejected the mercy and the love of God in Christ.
    Not because it is HIS will.
    It IS His will that all who do evil and sin will pay the consequences if they do not repent .
    It IS Gods will that all men repent .
    It is NOT Gods will they stay in rebellion.

    It is however the will fo the devil that all men perish that all men come not to Christ.
    For the devil has come but to steal to kill and to destroy ,But Jesus said but I have come that you migght have LIFE and life more abundantly."

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  6. I see what you mean, but what I mean is that God's way of teaching them was to begin with showing them what is good and what is not good to do, even though He knew they would choose doing bad. This was the manner He used to teach. In my opinion, God did not present these commands as what they were suppose to do, but as allowing them to choose, which is the primary issue, choice.

    I wouldn't think God could suppose anything for anyone because He already knows.
     
  7. In the command to eat of only that which was good to eat or in other words to choose any good.
    Where in that command did God give them the choice to do evil?
    and if they were not supposed to do which would be their "reasonable service" why say it ? that too would make God a liar which he is not.

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  8. I suppose it's a matter of how this is discerned. I think there would be no need of a command if there were no allowance for choice, i.e. "choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" (Deu 30:19). Thus God allowed them to choose, even though He knew what they would choose, to incur accountability and increase their learning. God gave them the volition for good and evil!
     
  9. Amen! Without choice, how can one choose life.
     
  10. God knew they'd sin from before they were created... here's the proof:

    Rev 13:8 (KJV)
    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​
     
  11. I put before you life and death choose life was after the fall.

    He gave no such choice before it.
    As children of God if we are true BORN again by water and Spirit .We have the perfect liberty as sons of God to do any good we find or think to do but we are not at liberty to do evil.
    God has not changed .
    We are if His a new creation.

    Who by use have learnt to discern both good and evil and by the grace of God choose the good .
    "If thy eye be single thy whole body is full of light"
    The choices given to Adam was to choose from all that was good to eat and that included the tree of life.
    God meant them to know evil not by tasting of it and dying .But by refusing it and living and know of the good that God purposed for them. by partaking of the tree of life.

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  12. I think regardless of how He desired for them to learn, the fact is that He foreknew their actions (from eternity past) and allowed it, and used it for good.
     
  13. I have been thinking on this subject the past several days. I was thinking about God's sovereignty over all things, and how he is absolutely in control of all things and over all powers. He always was and always will be. That one blows me away.

    He created Lucifer knowing that Lucifer would rebel against him, and that he would take 1/3 of the angels with him. I think that is the correct number. And, yet he allowed Lucifer and those angels to live. He could have destroyed them.

    Even before God created the world, he had a plan for our lives. He knew Adam and Eve would sin against him. He allowed the devil to exist and to tempt Adam and Eve. And, he allows evil to exist now and to have great power and influence. He sent his Son to this earth, knowing that Satan's workers would reject him, would persecute him and then kill him. Jesus is God, and yet he subjected himself to suffer what we suffer and to be tempted in like manner as we are also tempted, yet without sin, and to die on a cross at the hands of evil men, just so we could go free from slavery to sin and could become servants of righteousness.

    What prompted me thinking about this was the Super Bowl halftime show. I did not see it, but I read about it, and others like it for the past several years, which glorify evil, Satan, and sin, and which appear to be, in some cases, Satanic rituals which have a message to them. So, that got me thinking about all the evil of these last days and how it is described for us in Revelation and other books in the Bible, and how it was God's plan that evil should be allowed to exist, and that Satan would be allowed to cause much pain and suffering for followers of Christ, but how it all has a purpose, which I believe is to give us the choice to choose God or to reject him.

    I know I don't want people to spend time with me because they feel they have to, but because they want to. I believe God wants people who want him, who choose him, and who choose to reject evil in favor of him. I believe God allows evil, because it pushes us to make that choice, and it draws us to God and to his breast as we cry out to him in our pain and suffering and persecution. He allows us to suffer such opposition in order to mature us in our faith, to draw us closer to him, to strengthen us, to teach us endurance and perseverance, and so we learn to rely on him and not on ourselves, etc.

    When I was younger, I didn't see it this way. I thought Satan could win, i.e. that he had power over me in a way that God could do nothing about. I saw God as my comforter, but not as all powerful and capable of stopping Satan. I believe a lot of people see God this way, maybe not that they would admit, but by the mere fact that they so often give in to Satan and feel as though they can't help it. I believe it is because, deep down, they don't really believe that God/Jesus already won this battle for us, and that there is no question as to who is going to win. Jesus won! What I believe it all comes down to is accepting the sovereignty of God over our lives, and that he allowed Satan to exist, and that he permits evil to exist, but that he does so for a purpose, and a big part of that purpose is that we would choose God and that we would be drawn to him and would learn to have our dependency on him.
     
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  14. @SueJLove you are 100% correct! When Satan killed Jesus thinking he destroyed his Enemy, the devil allowed Jesus to pave the way for us to become like Jesus and thereby creating millions of Jesus' one soul at a time all for the glory of God!
     
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  15. Because we are talking about in the garden of eden and there had the lierty to choose any tree that was good to eat and also to choose and eat of the tree of life.
    God has not changed.
    Men still have the oppertunity to "taste and see that the Lord is Good"
    and partake of life and in the end the tree of life will be made open to all the nations . see rev.
    What people want is the liberty to choose evil.

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  16. Gods sovereignty is His supremacy over all creation. He "declares the end from the beginning".. Isaiah 46:10 . He has decreed all things and all things were created for His glory, including the salvation of some (elect or chosen in Christ) to show forth His love and mercy. And judgement of the rest, to glorify His power, wrath and justice. Romans 9:22-23. This is our purpose! To glorify God! He's the potter and we are the clay. He does all things according to His will and purpose. Not ours! Ephesians 1:11. After Adams fall, all creation is born guilty and with a sin nature. So our volition or will is held in bondage to our sinful condition. Born into the kingdom of darkness.. So then it is NOT of him who wills, NOR of him who runs, BUT OF GOD WHO SHOWS MERCY.. Romans 9:16. Proverbs 16 speaks that, " The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord... The Lord has made ALL for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of evil.. In mercy and truth atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the Lord one departs from evil.. A mans heart plans his way, but the Lord DIRECTS his steps.. Proverbs 16. So what is this "free will" that has deified man and made God a reactor to His creation taught in scripture??? No one is free as far as his volition goes. You are either a slave to sin or saved and a slave to righteousness! Gods people praise Christ and His merits alone for His love and mercy! Gods sovereignty cuts to the heart of mans pride and humbles the elect!
     
  17. God owes us nothing but Judgment! Don't get that statement. Gods righteous law calls for obedience. Does that mean a sinner is able to obey in his sinful condition? No!! It is to drive that sinner to plead and seek Gods mercy for deliverance from his wretched self and to be found in the righteousness of Christ Alone! It shows our need for Gods mercy and forgiveness because it strips us naked and exposes our guilty wretched selfs for how we stand before the mighty and sovereign Creator
     
  18. Devil allowed nothing. It is God who ordained that
     
  19. I often think about that one, too, i.e. that the more the devil persecutes the church, the stronger the church becomes, and the more the gospel of Jesus Christ is spread throughout the earth. So, he is just shooting himself in his own foot.
     
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