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The Abortion Debate.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by LysanderShapiro, Jul 26, 2013.

  1. Granted, the abortion discussion isn't limited to a theological position, just as rape or theft aren't limited to it, but of course there is a religious argument as to why they're wrong.

    Abortion, however, is seen as very subjective and if one proclaims to be pro-life, not only are their arguments rejected, but that person is rejected too.

    The debate is seen very much as a Liberal vs. Conservative one -- I'm neither, but I hold a strong position on abortion, and it's not limited to my faith, but my faith is certainly a factor.

    • How do you feel about abortion?
    • How do you usually talk to someone who opposes your position?
    • Do you think the debate is productive or counter-productive?
    • Any interesting stories where you discussed abortion w/ someone who disagrees with you?

    God bless.
     
  2. Well, at one point in my life I was neither pro life or choice. Then I went through the abortion process with my mate, then I had a near death experience, then I got 'saved'-I accepted Christ as my Savior.

    So now-I don't see the debate as mildly productive, I don't see ANY reason for abortion unless it is a life threatening issue and even that is debatable.

    We have to approach the issue as Christians-heartbroken. Yes-I feel heartbreak for rape victims-but it is not the unborn child's fault. Abortion is an act of selfishness; and as Christians we have to be selfless; but as I just posted on another thread:

    "So we are caught in the complexity of 'being in the world, but not OF the world'. We are influenced greatly by the world, so we have to be MORE influenced by the LORD. At the same time-we can't expect unbelievers to comply with God's Word-and we should rebuke Brothers & Sisters that fall into the trappings of the world."

    The issue is heartbreaking no matter how you slice it.
     
    Kurt75 and LysanderShapiro say Amen and like this.
  3. When you said this, did you mean that it's not mildly productive--it's VERY productive, or did you mean it's not productive at all because it assumes there is a valid argument for abortion?
     
  4. Not productive at all between believers and non-believers. The abortion debate starts in the home. As we can see in our culture, the family unit is constantly under attack. Men are emasculated with their authority in the home removed, women have lost the glory that the titles 'mother' and 'wife' are meant to have from God, children are taught to be rebellious and indoctrinated into the new world order.

    If we solve the family problem-we solve the 'salvation' problem, we solve the ignorance of God's Word problem-there is no abortion issue or debate. The Body of Christ-the Church has to do it's job reaching people with the Gospel. Christ commanded us to preach and teach the Gospel-not fight political agendas. Although spreading the Gospel-telling the truth-flies in the face of most political agendas.

    We solve the abortion problem by training our daughters to be Godly ladies and wives. We solve the abortion problem by staying pure until marriage and by staying married unto death. We can't expect the world and unbelievers to comply-they won't. We live in a culture that sees instant gratification and entitlement as good things. 'Hooking -up' for one night stands and contraception are the normal. There is no commitment. Again-selfishness.

    Abortion-in any form-is touted as the 'magic pill' for the 'pregnancy problem'. We are in fight that disregards human life. We are living in a culture of death. Abortion is no different than burning our children on the alter of Moloch.
     

  5. I understand what you're saying--correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying we've got bigger fish to fry than abortion. We have the souls of people to consider.

    While I think there is definitely some truth to this, I don't think I agree with you that it is counter-productive. I think it's important for those of us who know the truth to step up and do what we can against injustices like infanticide, which we have in the world. I think it's certainly better than ignoring this problem despite knowing it exists.

    I think you bring up a good point though--in order to spread the message of God, does one have to step away from addressing the evils of the world, or can one spread the message of God through addressing the evils?
     
  6. Is it possible? YES! If we include the source of truth in our conversation:

    John 3:
    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    John 8:
    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    John 14:
    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    The issue is willful ignorance and denial of the source of truth. Without accepting 'Truth/ The Word/ Jesus Christ" an unbeliever will use human rationalization. So is it possible for an unbeliever to 'agree' with the truth without accepting the source? Yes. But they still contend with other non-truth sources AKA: Special Interest Groups. So when we 'debate' we must make clear our stance and not waver as Christians using the Word as our foundation-not what we 'think'. Hence the dilemma. So we share the Gospel-the Word in love. We know that world will reject it-it already has. This is our heartbreak:

    Matthew 7:
    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    The people chose....

    Matthew 27:
    21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.
     

  7. I think you're bringing up a good argument, but you also expressed that one could make an argument to the non-believer excluding any theological reasoning, which you're absolutely right about--that's why folks like Christopher Hitchens--a militantly anti-religious Atheist--was pro-life.

    However, if we decide that the people have already chosen, is this suggesting that we shrug and move on to something else?

    Great answer BTW.
     
  8. I am not saying we predetermine the state of one's 'nature' (soul). That isn't the problem: it is that the 'collective majority' has made the decision already. Can we change that and sway that? YES-thank God!But the process for that is:

    #1 Personal salvation and the acceptance of the indwelling Holy Spirit for guidance and wisdom.
    #2 Being obedient in God's Word:

    Mark 16:15
    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    Our mission is to reach individual souls-that is how we change the 'collective' and the 'law'. Turn the majority (repent) to Christ-become a Nation that believes in Christ again-one soul at at time. Christ= Love: Love is the answer.

    Matthew 22:
    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Exodus 20:13
    Thou shalt not kill.(Murder)
     
  9. Think of it this way-if no one walked through the doors of an Abortion Clinic-it wouldn't be there...
     

  10. Don't take what I'm saying facetiously or rudely, but isn't that idealism?
    Unfortunately, not everyone will accept God (not suggesting we give up on that of course) and not everyone will accept that Abortion is murder. Many of them (despite what embryology and bio-genesis concludes) will demand that the fetus is only a part organism like a sperm or a uterus.

    While I think there is a heap of reason to stand for the sanctity of life because it's God's will, would it be wrong to also include the secular argument (not anti-religious argument, mind you--just a non-religious argument) if it means protecting the sanctity of life?
     
  11. By all means: stand on the foundation of God, live the Word-be the 'light on the Hill' and the 'salt of the Earth'. Train up your children in the way they should go and they will not depart from it. I reiterate my point: the issue starts at the individual, then the family, then the Church/ Community, then the Nation.

    Fighting the cause will not turn souls to God-winning souls to Christ through the Gospel will determine 'policy'/ 'law'. We are losing souls-we are losing the majority, we are losing the law. That is what is happening. We can't semi-convert someone just for policies sake; it is folly. There will always be opposition to God's Word on THIS earth.

    It starts with God's plan for the family-sacrifice of children is not in that plan. The attack on the family and life in general is what the abortion issue is all about. And since it appeals to the sinful selfish/ self gratification behavior of the natural born man-it is nearly impossible to fight unless it is at the individual spiritual level.

    What's more productive:

    Going to council meeting and bickering about policy and the law stands?

    -or-

    Going to an abortion clinic and counseling a young girl about to lose her child and she repents?
     

  12. I think you're bringing up so good points. Let's say I'm a pro-life apologist who is out to spread the word on why abortion is objectively wrong -- I think it would be a bad idea to first make it a legal issue before we attempt to make it a moral issue. Oddly enough, I don't think the federal government should be getting involved in the abortion issue only because that's unConstitutional, and there is a place for recognizing justice as it is. On a legal level, I think it should be handled as locally as possible, but I digress.

    I totally agree w/ you that discussing with individuals on the moral reason, using philosophy and science, and when it will be respected in discussion, religion, (some won't even give you the time of day is you insist on only using religion and thus might hurt your case that is intended to save a life) before we attempt to involve law -- absolutely.
     
  13. Abortion is an example of the times in which we live.

    50% of the church (An approximation) is for abortion. Now that is not a conservative or liberal choice but instead is a perfect example of people who do not read the Bible. They say they accept Christ, go to church and then live their lives in total apathy to the Word of God.

    Abortion is murder and God said that "Ye shall not commit murder". That ends the argument!

    But there are 50% of the people who say it is OK. Is that 50% saved, born again believers who refuse to obey God's Word????
     
    KingJ likes this.

  14. Much of Christ's followers are read "Ye shall not commit murder" and don't extend this to the unborn because they have fallen for the pro-abortion propaganda. The theological answers can be found in many verses, from Jeremiah 1:5 to Psalms 22:9-10 to Luke 1:42.

    And of course, it can even be expanded to an embryological and philosophical reason.
     
    Major likes this.
  15. Agreed. Total lack of Biblical study always brings a price.

    We can also draw from Leviticus and especially Deutronomy 18 where God warns His people not to do what the people in the land were doing. The Canninites in the Land practiced the worship of Molech which was the burning of un-born babies for the blessing on the crops.
     
  16. Absolutely. Nicely cited.
     
  17. #17 KingJ, Aug 6, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
    1. It's murder.
    2. Science. A one week old embryo already looks human! Even if raped. You punishing the baby for someone elses crime. Would you hold Jesus's hand into the abortion clinic? or trust Him to provide and look after you and the baby?
    3. Productive only as the norm is abortion. Any debate enhances public awareness.
    4. No. I am normally impatient and merciless on this subject. Better to be clear then blurry.

    I used to say it is ok if the abortion is before the baby is a fetus or if there were major abnormalities. But now I see clearer. Its 100% wrong. No grey area's!
     
    Major and LysanderShapiro say Amen and like this.
  18. You are exactly right. There is neither a theological, nor a scientific, nor a philosophical reasoning to stand behind abortion.

    I'd go further regarding your scientific reasoning and say that even early than a one week old, while it doesn't look human, it is still a whole organism with unique DNA and develops separately from the mother. Looks aren't even a criteria to decide what is or isn't a human being.
     
    KingJ likes this.
  19. Allow me to give you example of the way sin has polluted out thinking.

    A woman can kill her baby up to and including the last trimester and actually right up to the birth as long as the head does not leave the womb. No penality to pay because the murder of unborn babies is the law of the land. That is the law of the land and 50% of American approve of that law.

    Now, lets just pretend that you and I go fishing off the coast of Florida one day. A storm comes up and our boat sinks and we are shipwrecked on a small island. We are thirst, hungry and after a couple of days we know we are about to die. Then you look up and right there in the top of a palm tree is a huge bird nest with 6 huge eggs. You climb the tree, toss down the eggs and I break them and we eat them and we survive for another day. A blessing from God has saved us from death.

    Then while looking for water the next day, we look through a huge growth of bushes and we see a house with a pool and people swiming and drinking. We realiaze that we have landed on the mainland just south of BocaRaton Fl. and not on a deserted island.

    A man comes up to us, dressed in a game wardens uniform and says........I have good news and bad news.
    What do you want 1st.

    I say the good news!!!

    The man says........welcome to Florida, you are saved from your shipwreak.

    You say.......what is the bad news??????

    You are under arrest for killing 6 unborn bald headed eagles and you are going to jail for 1 year and you owe the government $25,000.00.

    WHY????.............Because that is the LAW!!!!!!
     

  20. Are you referring to the "It's a law, therefore it must be just" problem? Certainly one that makes my head spin.
     

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