The 1000 Year Reign... I Wish It Were Literal,but....

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by calvin, Jan 27, 2012.

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  1. There has been quite a bit of debate on this forum and elsewhere about the 1000 year reign.
    So I thought I might start a discussion on it in a thread devoted (hopefully) to that area of interest.
    Where specifically does the notion of a millennial Kingdom come from?
    Here is a paste of Rev 20 from the Nkjv.

    Firstly I want to point out that the Earth comes to a timely end with the opening of the sixth seal back in Rev 6. So anything we are going to read in latter chapters was revealed, though not necessarily detailed by John as each of those seals was opened. Remember that the scroll had writing on both sides suggesting that it contained very detailed information about the events revealed as it was opened. This point has not been considered in discussions about the various seals as far as I can recall.
    And so we come to the case in point. The 1000 year reign.
    In Rev 20:4,5 we are told 2 very revealing truths...these should not be overlooked IMNSHO.
    First: in Rev 20:4 the saints "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them". Compare this to 1 Cor 6:3 Yes, the context is about other things, but the object lesson is using the fact of a future judicial role of the saints. This clearly takes place after the first resurrection.
    Next consider v4b, "and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands" Not only those who had been executed, but those who had not worshiped the beast are seen there....that covers all saints from A to Z. There are to be no 'saints' left behind bodily on Earth to rule the masses.
    Next in Rev 20:5 we are told that this is the first resurrection, there are only two resurrections;
    the resurrection of the righteous, (of which Christ Jesus was the first fruit) and the resurrection of the unrighteous.

    Now we come to V7 and onward. But first, a very careful read of Ezekiel ch 38 will explain many things about the events of Rev V7 onward. Gog is the 'prince' of Magog and tubal. The important thing here is that 'Gog' refers to an archangel or at least to a princely angelic personage, not a human person.

    Remember that all that is happening here was revealed (not to us) with the opening of the sixth seal. How long the 1000 year reign actually takes is not knowable, is not important, but these things are likely certain:
    Those who the devil gathers are those who did not qualify for the first resurrection, they are the unsaved who are raised at the second resurrection V7. We can not be overly certain of the exact theater of this final conflict, be it Jerusalem or be it in the air, though not heaven.
    1 Thessalonians 4:16,17
    The evidence points to it being a battle of a spiritual, rather than a physical one because at that time there are no un-resurrected people left.

    Blessings,
    calvin
     
  2. Well I'm no wordsmith that much is certain!:(
    :oops:

    So what I meant to say is "Firstly I want to point out that the Earth comes to a timely end during the period revealed by the opening of the sixth seal back in Rev 6. So anything we are going to read in latter chapters was revealed, though not necessarily detailed by John as each of those seals was opened.

    Then, I posted:"Next in Rev 20:5 we are told that this is the first resurrection, there are only two resurrections;" :oops:

    I did not mean to include my personal observations as though they were a part of V5.
    it should read "Next in Rev 20:5 we are told that this is the first resurrection. Remember there are only two resurrections we are taught about....";

    Just don't want to confuse anyone:oops:
    Blessings,
    calvin
     
  3. That is a rather "unique" perspective Calvin. I would ask this though, if the Earth comes to a timely end at the 6th Seal judgement...why are there 2 more sets of judments which follow the Seal judgments: The Trumpets and Vial judgments???

    Only as an observation here, a major concern of the book of the Revelation is the judgment of God on the world at the beginning of the day of the Lord. The various judgmnets are seen in the book by a scroll with "seven seals", by blasts from seven "trumpets" and by the wrath of God poured out from the seven "bowls" (Vials). The relationship of these 3 series of judgmensts have been debated by interpreters for ages. Allow me to try and explain the different "VIEWS" that have been postulated over the years by Christianities great teachers and see where your thoughts fall in at.

    1) THE PARALLEL VIEW.
    This view understands that the 3 series of judgments as taking place during the same time frame period, with repetition of the judgments merely showing emphasis on the intensity of the judgments.

    2)THE CONSECUTIVE VIEW
    This view understands that the judgments are taking place one at a time throughout the Tribulation Period, that is 21 individuel judgments from God in consecutive order.

    3) THE TELESCOPIC VIEW.
    This view understands the 7th Seal to include all seven trumpets and likewide that the 7th trumpet includes the 7 Bowls. Each individual judjment may end when the next begins or each may continue until the end of the Tribulation Period and the return of Christ.

    Why list all this??? Simply to let you all know where the thoughts we post uselly come from so that you with the guidence of the Holy Spirit can decise what you believe He is teaching you.

    Now....not that it matters one little iotta, I fall into the TELESCOPIC VIEW. After years of studying these views, I have come to the conclusion that it encompases the best of ALL Scriptures.
    Since the 7th Seal seems to simply introduce the 7 Trumpets (Rev. 8:1-2) and the 7th Trumpet brings the chronology all the way to the Return of Christ (Rev. 119:15), this view IMO allows all the Bible concerning prophecy to fall perfectly into place without any work to make it fit. The 7 Bowls are called the 7 last plagues (Rev. 15:1) are called that for a reason and they occur in rapid succession at the end of the Tribilation.

    God bless you my friend.

    Major
     
  4. Just a general reminder, not singling out anyone in particular!

    Although this is not under General Discussions, the same rules apply.

    This topic is a controversial one as are many having to do with Revelations. It does not impact one's salvation and will be closed if it gets too heated.
     
  5. Then Major posted:
    Thank you Major for your reply.
    I doubt "if" really has any place here Major. To interpret the events that accompany the loosing of the sixth seal as anything other than the 'final curtain call' requires the ignoring of too many other scriptures to be given any debating space here IMNSHO.

    This topic thread is about the 1000 year reign. Have you any observations to make/discuss regarding the content of Rev 20?
    In particular the fact that the souls John sees are not only those who were beheaded, but all the souls of the saints. (V4)
    The fact that this disclosure is declared to be the 'first resurrection' and is then immediately followed by the 1000 year reign.(V5 & 6 )
    The fact that immediately after this 1000 years, there is a a battle which is (a) described in Ezekiel ch38, and (b) The fact that the 'rest of the dead' are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years. (v5)
    The fact that the remainder of ch20 details again the 'final curtain call' for the Earth... not just another end of the world scenario.
    Major, I know you and others hold differing views on this topic, if you didn't, then there would be no point in this or any other forum....yes? If we can keep discussion to the topic in hand, perhaps we can come to a clearer understanding of these matters. You and others who believe there will be a literal 1000 year reign might be right. I actually wish you were! I'd get quite a buzz out of being there physically, in Jerusalem. But I can not see scripture, in particular Rev ch 20, supporting that.:(
    I'll get quite a buzz just being in the millennial kingdom no matter where it is though.:cool:

    blessings,
    calvin
     
  6. Calvin, please forgive me but YOU are the one who said.....
    "Remember that all that is happening here was revealed (not to us) with the opening of the sixth seal, in the 1st comment".

    That is why I posted what I did about the 6th Seal. I have already stated my understanding on Rev. 20 but since you asked I am glad to talk with you. Nothing would please me more.

    Now as for Rev. 20:4
    King James Version (KJV)
    4"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

    I can make several observations. you ask about verse #4.

    1). John SAW. "Eye gate". He saw THRONES.
    The THRONES represent the administration of the Messianic Kingdom. Those whom John SEES come to life are the Tribulations martyers., who refused to take the mark of the Beast. They will rule the earth with Christ for 1ooo years. I see no reason to believe that this is anything other than a literal 1000 years.

    2) Christ will rule through 3 classes of kingdom people:
    A. Old Test. saints (Is. 26:19, & Daniel 12:2) who will be resurrected at this time.
    B. The apostles and the Church (Matt. 19:28-29). (YOU & ME!!!!)
    C. Tribulation saints who live through the event. (Luke 19:12-27)

    Only believers will enter the Millennium at its beginning (John 3:3-5). **KEY** (Judgment of nations removes un-believers else what would be the reason for a judment?)
    God's promises to Abraham , David will be fulfilled.

    Then you ask about verse #5.

    The first part of vs 5 is a parenthesis and comes chronologically after verse #11.

    The 1st resurrection is the resurrection included in verse #4.
    A. The resurrection of Christ as He is the "Firstfruits" (I Cor. 15:23)
    B. The Resurrection of the church (the dead in Christ THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE WILL BE CAUGHT UP IN THE AIR WITH CHRIST)
    C. The Resurrection of Old Test. saints and Tribulation saints. (vs 4, Is. 26:19, & Dn. 12:1).

    The REST OF THE DEAD (Unbelievers) will be raised in the 2nd Resurrection described in verses #12 & 13. The 1st resurrection is a resurrection unto life but the 2nd resurrection is unto death. The SECOND DEATH is eternal punishment in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14)

    Then you comment that...."The fact that this disclosure is declared to be the 'first resurrection' and is then immediately followed by the 1000 year reign.(V5 & 6 )".

    That is what it says so that is what I believe.


    Then you comment......"The fact that immediately after this 1000 years, there is a a battle which is (a) described in Ezekiel ch38.

    That is also what it says BUT........it does not say that this is the battle of Ezekiel 38. Some people think it is and who knows...you may be right. But when we read Ezekiel 38:6..........
    "Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee."

    Clearly we have a problem because Revelation 20:8 does not say that.
    "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

    One battle is from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE WORLD which inticates universal and the other is only from the NORTH QUARTERS of the earth. I am one who believes that these are in fact 2 different conflicts. I believe the 1st from Ez. 38 takes place in and around the Rapture which leads to the 7 year peace treaty Daniel tells us of and the Rev. battle is as it says at the end of the 1000 year rule. One begins the Tribulation and the other ends the 1000 year rule. In that way, all Scripture fits beautifully into place.

    BUT it also tells us something else Calvin and that is there will be live humans who come to Christ during the Tribulation and live through it. I know lots of people do not agree with that and God bless all of them. But.....if we consider that the judgment of the nations AFTER Armageddon is the judgment of un-believers and they are all killed with the sword, the only ones left to form an army in Rev. 20:8 is the children of the Tribulation saints.

    Rev. 19:17-21
    And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
    18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    Then you comment........"The fact that the remainder of ch20 details again the 'final curtain call' for the Earth".

    But Calvin, we then have Rev. 21:1..........
    "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

    Seems to me we have something NEW here but it is still called EARTH. How do we explain that????

    Isaiah predicted a new heaven and a new earth in 65:17, 66:22. I believe this is going to be the eternal state where all sin will have been cleansed from its effects and the curse will be removed.

    New Jerusalem will be the home of the resurrected church and the presence of God will live with His people.

    Well I have rambled along here but remember.....YOU ASKED. Nice to talk with you and may the Lord bless you.
     
  7. Hi Calvin,
    I am glad you have created a thread where this source of much misunderstanding can be discussed in some detail. The biggest problem most have with this 1,000 year
    period, nowhere else mentioned in the Bible, is that for a very, very long time the Christian community has built up expectations and a "mythology" of it that neither John
    nor Jesus ever declared or promised.

    But before I proceed further please allow me to lay a foundation that MUST underpin this discussion if it is to avoid sinking into the quagmire of a vast swamp of theological
    opinion. What many in the christian community have difficulty grasping is that even the Bible tells us that heresy and false teaching is as old, if not older, than sound
    doctrine. This means that heretical ideas and false teaching is as entrenched and steeped in tradition and history as sound doctrine. In addition we know from the Bible
    that, especially in the latter days (and I think we are all in agreement we are indeed in those latter days), a great many will flock to false teachers and false doctrine with
    very itchy ears.

    This means that NEITHER age of teaching, nor tradition, nor number of adherents, etc. can be any measure of truth whatsoever. We have available to us ONE and ONLY
    one measure, standard, CERTAINTY and authority of truth and that is the WRITTEN word of God (aka the Bible itself). If this discussion wanders from the absolute authority of what has
    actually been written by John (and ultimately by Jesus Himself) then it is not a discussion worth pursuing down the myriard rabbit holes of a plethora of theological
    opinions.

    In other words unless all us rabbits crawl out of our theological holes and gather around the actual word of God Himself it ain't going to work.:)

    Rather than cover a whole lot of ground at once I'll just concentrate on two key issues at this stage that cause a whole heap of misunderstanding.

    The first is who does JOHN and JESUS tell us will be raised in the first resurrection which is the ONLY one that occurs before the 1,000 years because it clearly
    declares the REST of the dead (everybody NOT in the first resurrection) are not raised until sometime AFTER the 1,000 years?

    If we take a very close look at what John and Jesus actually said we find THEY said this:-

    When we read what is actually written we see that those raised are those that were BEHEADED. What then follows is not the inclusion of anybody who was NOT
    beheaded but a DESCRIPTION of WHY these were beheaded. NOWHERE in this sentence does it declare that anybody OTHER than those actually beheaded (literally
    killed by decapitation) are raised. Hence John and Jesus declare that the FIRST resurrection is ONLY of those beheaded for the reasons LISTED.

    What does that mean for those sitting on thrones to whom judgement is given. We can see that John and Jesus are emphatic that the raising of those beheaded is the
    FIRST resurrection. Therefore these are either those who were beheaded and raised in the FIRST resurrection, or they are those ALREADY on thrones John FIRST saw
    when he first enters Heaven. John and Jesus have clearly declared that only ONE ressurrection, the first resurrection, occurs BEFORE the 1,000 years and that it is only
    of those actually beheaded for the reasons listed.

    The second matter I will address, and the above quote also covers, is what exactly this 1,000 years actually is, apart from the time that Satan is bound. For this we must
    concentrate on these words of John and Jesus:-

    "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Rev 20:4)

    What this does NOT say is that JESUS reigned for 1,000 years. What it DOES say is that those beheaded who were raised, THEY lived and reigned with Christ a
    thousand years. In other word the 1,000 years refers to THEIR reign with Christ, not HIS reign.

    This is confirmed by the words of Jesus before He ascended UP into Heaven when He declared to His disciples over 60 years before Revelation was written that:-

    Matt 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

    Note the PAST/PRESENT tense not future tense. This is Jesus declaring that He HAS been given sovereign reign over ALL in Heaven and in Earth, over 60 years before
    Revelation was written about FUTURE events.

    Here also (below) we see Christ's reign not limited by a future 1,000 years but having ALREADY been established at the time of His ressurrection, indeed BY His resurrection:-

    1 Cor 15:25 "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

    But we know the Bible declares quite clearly elsewhere that when Christ returns ALL of the dead in Christ, not just those who have been beheaded for their testimony, are
    raised AND changed and those still living are also changed and we ALL meet Him in the air to be with Him for eternity, not 1,000 years. For THAT to be true AND for the
    words of Rev 20:4-5 to ALSO be true requires that this 1,000 period occurs BEFORE Christ returns. To declare otherwise is to declare one of these passages of the word
    of God to be UNTRUE and that is simply not an option in, as Major often says, rightly dividing the word of God.

    Clearly then ANY theology that tries to teach that this 1,000 year period happens AFTER Christ returns is actually teaching contrary to the clear word of God Himself. For the
    WHOLE word of God to be true this 1,000 years MUST, I repeat MUST occur BEFORE Christ's return.

    Regards Misty
     
  8. Hello again Major, your first response contained, among other things :
    [QUOTEThat is a rather "unique" perspective Calvin. I would ask this though, if the Earth comes to a timely end at the 6th Seal judgement...why are there 2 more sets of judments which follow the Seal judgments: The Trumpets and Vial judgments???][/QUOTE]
    As I have observed, we are told that the scroll of rev 5/6 had writing on both front and back. We were told that the scroll's contents were sealed with seven seals. You are as free to draw what inference you like from these facts, as am I. If you were to view these seals as opening up the scroll's contents in much the same way as a chapter marker opens up each chapter of a book, then you might understand that the events as described after the scroll's opening were detailed in those chapters. You might see that what John goes on to tell is a detailed account of those chapters. Then, you might come to the understanding that the subsequent judgments, are not new or additional judgments, but rather a more detailed description, or perhaps the same judgments as viewed from a different perspective. Consider for the moment, the theater of action as each trumpet and as each bowl judgment in turn happens. There is order and there is a difference in perspective. You might like to consider these things.

    You are not compelled to agree, however, I hope you will study prayerfully these things.
    One point that underpins this matter of the end of the current Earth is the Word of God. Heb 12:26,27 'once more' means once more, not several times over. The opening of the 6th seal, sees the heavens and the Earth shaken till their proverbial teeth rattle. Subsequent depictions of the Heavens and Earth being shaken can only be a retelling of the same event, not new events, else Hebrews ch 12 is wrong, and it is not! On that point at least we agree:cool:

    Blessings,
    Calvin
     
  9. G'day Misty, thanks for your reply.
    You raised an important point:
    In saying 'what has actually been written', we could/should if the need arises defer to the Greek texts for clarification where there could be a vagueness of translation? Translations other than strict literal ones are subject to interpretation by the translator/s.
    As an aside, this very problem of translation fidelity has recently led the Southern Baptists to reject the latest Niv effort, in this case it has to do with interpretation of non gender specific words.
    The big problem facing translators is that Greek words often can have several shades of meaning, in particular when it comes to grammatical construction. Here in verse 4 we have an excellent example of this difficulty.
    A literal translation of the Greek manuscripts available to us goes like this:
    from one source that I have.
    And from an online interlinear found at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev20.pdf
    These two options illustrate the plasticity of translation. The second example offers two possibilities for the Greek word translated variously as who, any, whoever and similar. The Greek text also has the word KAI which is omitted from the Kjv and many others. KAI is a conjuction and can be used as a connective marker or as a marker to indicate an additive relationship between two clauses. I believe the latter to apply here.
    Thus there are those who were beheaded, and also added to their number are those who have not worshiped the beast. After all, it would be contradictory in the extreme to include beast worshipers in the first resurrection. Thus it is feasible to conclude that the full count of the saved are included within the first Resurrection, by deferring to the authority of the most original available, written word of God.
    So, based on the Kjv etc. you are right in what you say; I only ask that you consider that the omission of KAI as a possible additive marker, leads to a different understanding than John might have meant.
    Blessings,
    calvin
     
    Major likes this.
  10. As I have observed, we are told that the scroll of rev 5/6 had writing on both front and back. We were told that the scroll's contents were sealed with seven seals. You are as free to draw what inference you like from these facts, as am I. If you were to view these seals as opening up the scroll's contents in much the same way as a chapter marker opens up each chapter of a book, then you might understand that the events as described after the scroll's opening were detailed in those chapters. You might see that what John goes on to tell is a detailed account of those chapters. Then, you might come to the understanding that the subsequent judgments, are not new or additional judgments, but rather a more detailed description, or perhaps the same judgments as viewed from a different perspective. Consider for the moment, the theater of action as each trumpet and as each bowl judgment in turn happens. There is order and there is a difference in perspective. You might like to consider these things.

    You are not compelled to agree, however, I hope you will study prayerfully these things.
    One point that underpins this matter of the end of the current Earth is the Word of God. Heb 12:26,27 'once more' means once more, not several times over. The opening of the 6th seal, sees the heavens and the Earth shaken till their proverbial teeth rattle. Subsequent depictions of the Heavens and Earth being shaken can only be a retelling of the same event, not new events, else Hebrews ch 12 is wrong, and it is not! On that point at least we agree:cool:

    Blessings,
    Calvin[/quote]

    ***************************************************************************************
    Calvin,
    We do not have to agree on things of prophecy which can not and will not be understood untill those events take place. What we can do is be cordial, loving and Christlike in all of our dealings with each other and I compliment you on your presentation and respect to others especially to me. I am extremely grateful for the respect that you have shown me.

    I in fact have studied this very thing many years ago in a prayerful condition. My conclusion came to THE TELESCOPIC VIEW which as I stated, allows all Bible prophecy to fit perfectly into place IMO.
    That dos NOT mean you are wrong and I am right.......simply that for me it makes more sense than does the other interpretations that can be postulated.

    Romans 14:5
    "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind".

    That means we are all at different levels of understanding and it speaks well of our discussion here.

    Even more Peter speaks to us from his epistle , and it is the ONE thing that everyone needs to grasp.

    2 Peter 1:20
    King James Version (KJV)
    "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

    We simply do not agree on this item but I respect your thoughts and attitude.
     

  11. Calvin...........I have read what you posted as well.

    When you say....
    "Thus there are those who were beheaded, and also added to their number are those who have not worshiped the beast. After all, it would be contradictory in the extreme to include beast worshipers in the first resurrection. Thus it is feasible to conclude that the full count of the saved are included within the first Resurrection, by deferring to the authority of the most original available, written word of God."

    That is what I said as well in post #6. I did not say it in such elloqent words, but non the less stated it.............

    2) Christ will rule through 3 classes of kingdom people:
    A. Old Test. saints (Is. 26:19, & Daniel 12:2) who will be resurrected at this time.
    B. The apostles and the Church (Matt. 19:28-29). (YOU & ME!!!!)
    C. Tribulation saints who live through the event. (Luke 19:12-27).
     
  12. AS a followup to your statement of some believers living through the Tribulation :
    "Thus there are those who were beheaded, and also added to their number are those who have not worshiped the beast."

    Something occured to me that must be considered. It comes from the CONTEXT of all the Scriptures not just one verse in Rev. 20.

    Calvin.....consider:

    John 3:3
    "Jesus answered and said unto him, `Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except (or unless) a man be born again (or born from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"

    Now what does that tell us????? Who can go into the Kingdom? ONLY BELIEVERS!
    There will be no unbelievers in the Kingdom. Come back to Matthew 24. At the mid-point of the Tribulation we see the Anti-christ coming in and defiling the temple at Jerusalem?
    Matthew 24 verses 15a and 16:

    Matthew 24:15a,16
    "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,... Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

    I call this the escaping remnant of Israel. They go down to the mountains to the southeast of Jerusalem. They won't be the whole nation but as I have said before, only the remnant. And in those mountains God is going to protect them for the last 3 1/2 years. Then as this remnant of Israel they will have gone out to the mountains in belief realizing that the A/C is not the Messiah. So they, too, will get to go into the Kingdom by rejecting the A/C and refusing his mark and through faith in Christ that Jesus was in fact their Savior!

    Let's look at this remnant as they see Him coming from the view of Zechariah:
    Zechariah 12:10
    "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications
    (remember this is the house of David, no Gentiles are there): and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced (His Crucifixion),..."

    They will suddenly not only have their physical eyes opened but also their spiritual eyes. And they will recognize that this coming manifestation of The Christ, The Messiah is the One Who died back there on that Roman Cross. Let's look at one more verse to affiem CONTEXT that some believers fo live throught the Tribulation:

    Zechariah 13:6
    "And one
    (this remnant of Israel)
    shall say unto him, `What are these wounds in thine hands?' Then he shall answer, `Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends,'"

    Then this remnant of Israel will experience that new birth that Nicodemus was told he had to have in order to go into the Kingdom. This remnant, by far, will be the largest number of people to survive the Tribulation IMHO. This then will be the seed stock of the Nation of Israel as they come into the Kingdom. All twelve tribes will be represented here.

    Isaiah tells us, "Will a nation be born in a day."

    Just something from the written Word for all to consider!!
     
  13. An important point to clarify for sure Calvin.

    Have looked into what you were saying and this is what I have discovered:-
    As can be seen from the KJV below (my Strong's is keyed to the KJV) the Greek word "kai" is a much used conjunctive word that pretty much just means "and" and is translated as such (or sometimes as also, even, indeed, but and similar conjunctions).

    "Kai" is not the word that is causing confusion here but the Greek word "hostis" which can in various contexts mean "who", "whosoever", "which" or "whatever". The question is when used here does it mean "who" or does it mean "whosoever".

    from below we see that the KJV, Young's Literal Translation, Amplified Bible and NIV have all translated it in the sense of "who". (Others probably have also but these are four of the most highly respected mainline translations). Some other translations have taken it to mean :"whosoever". (we'll see in a minute why that is unlikely to be the correct translation).

    As with English when a word has several possible meanings one looks to the context to establish the meaning the WRITER intended it to have. Now if we look at the context we find John specifically identifying those beheaded for their witness. If we use the "who" sense of the Greek word "hostis" what follows is simply a list of why they were beheaded which at one point has the simple conjunction "and who". However if we use the "whosoever" sense of "hostis" what we end up with is a second group of people because it becomes "and whosoever ..." did those things listed ATER that point.

    But you have to ask yourself WHY would John write that he saw those beheaded for their testimony AND all those killed every which way for doing the same thing and even those who WEREN'T killed for doing the same thing?? Would he not, if that were the case, simply have said "I saw the souls of them that had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"?? If the first group is incorporated in a larger group and the same thing happens to all of them there is absolutely no point whatsoever singling out the first group, it serve no purpose whatsoever.

    The WHOLE wording of John's sentence only makes sense if it is referring to one single specific group only, namely those beheaded.

    Otherwise it is like saying "this cemetery is reserved for those who have died in this town from stroke and whosoever in this town has died"???

    But there is another problem if people want to use the whosoever version. It would STILL not describe the rapture at the coming of Christ when ALL the dead in Christ arise. The worship of the beast or his image (meaning a picture, statue, carving, etc. because it was made) and the mark on the hand or forehead (because you could not buy or sell without it so it must be detectable) are PHYSICAL acts and features. The terms "refused" and "had not accepted" require that a command had been issued for them to do this. It does not say they did not do it or have it, it says they refused to do it and did not accept it.

    OK now think back over, say, the last 1,000 years as an example and ponder just how many believers and non-believers who have died have been commanded to worship the beast or his image or been commanded to have his mark detectably placed on their hand or forehead and have refused?? How many believers in all those centuries died without ever having the opportunity to REFUSE to worship the beast or his very real image or REFUSED to accept his very real and detectable mark on his hand or forehead. Think of all the great men of God over those centuries who were never commanded to do either.

    NOT ONE of those believers would have a part in the first resurrection because they have NOT "refused" to worship the beast or his image and have NOT "not accepted" the mark of the beast for the very simple reason they were never asked or commanded to under threat of death or any other threat.

    BUT all who were in Christ at the time of their death are among the "dead in Christ" who will arise at His coming even though they do not meet the strict criteria for inclusion in the FIRST resurrection, the only one to occur BEFORE the 1,000.

    So no matter how many ways one looks at it the rapture of ALL who are in Christ at His COMING does not ocurr until AFTER the 1,000 years.

    Just on another note for people to chew over it should be noted with some interest that Rev 20:4 says "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." What is interesting about it is that it does NOT say "and they lived FOREVER and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

    Just something else for people to chew over. (but more chewy stuff coming up).
     
  14. Sorry, that's my personal library HERE at home, not there at CFS
     
  15. OK let me first clarify that I know what my own thoughts are in relation to these matters. HOWEVER what follows is not my opinion, it is merely informing people of the HISTORICAL FACTS of the reality in which they live. That is, these things are a part of well established OFFICIAL world history. They are factual reality. What they mean in relation to Revelation 20 I will, as I usually do, leave ENTIRELY up to people to ponder for themselves. My only purpose here is to INFORM people of facts the world itself seems determined to NOT inform people of. Indeed to hide away from people and discourage investigation of, as if whoever is in control of THIS world does not want them knowing about or enquiring into.... Ever wonder WHY 1,000 years of world history and the greatest empire the world has ever known has been hidden away in a closet called "The Dark Ages" for so long? A closet nobody is encouraged to open and look into, but rather is promoted as a boringly empty closet in which nothing much of interest hides? Allow me to simply open up the closet. What you want to see or not see inside it is entirely up to you.

    OK Misty grabs the door handles:-

    History tells us that the very FIRST time history records true Christianity as REIGNING anywhere in the world, it reigned in a "worldwide" CHRISTIAN empire that lasted - 1,000 years. An empire that was established after a battle in which the LAST Emperor of the PAGAN Roman Empire that persecuted the church ALMOST to extinction, and indeed probably would have left no Christians alive had it been ALLOWED to continue, was miraculously defeated and killed. Victory seemed almost certain when the Milvian bridge he had built suddenly collapsed and sunk for no apparent reason, casting him and much of his heavily armoured (lots of metal and no floaties) army into the Tiber river and the rest into disarray and confusion.

    The army that opposed him was led by another candidate for emperor of Rome, but it would be a very different empire that he would found. He is reported to have ridden a white horse and is often depicted wearing a red cloak /vestment. In Latin his NAME, Constantine, means "faithful and true". We know him as Constantine The Great.

    The evening before this miraculous battle history records Constantine telling of a vision in the sky of a cross and the name of Jesus Christ and a voice that said "under this sign and in this name conquer". The next day Constantine ordered all his army to place on their vestments, shields, banners, etc. the sign of the cross and the initials XP which are the initials of Jesus Christ when rendered in Latin. Consequently in this miraculous battle that profoundly changed the course of world history and put an end to the Pagan Roman Empire that ruled the known world, Constantine and his army rode out under the sign of the cross and with the name of the King of Kings on their vestments and elswhere. The first time anywhere that an army rode out in the name of Christ and established an empire ruled by the word and command of Christ Himself. An empire that history records would last 1,000 years. The Byzantine CHRISTIAN Empire. An empire based not in Rome but in Constantinople.

    It is this empire that constantly battled both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church to remain "Sola Scriptura" (ultimate authority in the word of God alone, not the RC Pope) and "iconoclastic" (forbidding the worshipping and reverencing of images and icons). It is these two churches who usurped the position of the BCE 1,000 years later. Indeed the last of the Crusades were against the BCE at Constantinople, not Islam.

    It is to the BCE, not the RC that we must give thanks for the collation, assembly, proliferation and distribution of our 66 Book Bibles of today. It is to the BCE that we must give thanks for the world wide spread of the Doctrine of Christ Himself in its 1,000 year existence.

    Interestingly while neither the Christian historian Eusebius nor Constantine could have possibly known by any earthly means that the empire Constantine admitted he established FOR Christ and for whom Constantine considered himself to be merely a representative bound as much as anybody else to the overriding authority of the Bible as the word of God, would last 1,000 years we find Eusebius recording the following in his historical records:-

    As I said in the introduction all I am doing here is introducing people to factual historical records and established events. It is for people to decide for themselves the significance of it all and its relevance to Revelation.

    As some here are aware I have 2 of my Reality Bender Videos at YouTube devoted to this topic and some have probably already viewed them. For any who haven't but might like to I have inserted direct links to them below for convenience.
    Regards Misty




     
  16. G'day Misty, I just downloaded the ISA basic 2 just now. It works fine but it doesn't seem to give any real advantage over the PDF download.
    calvin
     
  17. Thanks Calvin, I might use the PDF version then. Much easier to cut and paste or share around etc. And one less piece of software for my poor old laptop to endure. Thanks for the "review".
     
  18. To get back on track here, Misty, I partly agree that hostis is the cause of uncertainty here, it is a complex word incorporating the definite article. The point of mentioning KAI, is that in place it can mean one of 2 things, omitted, as in the KJV, omitted, it means definitely only one thing. EG. " Those who were beheaded...; those who did not worship....." then inserted, as it is in the original Greek, " Those who were beheaded, ((and (KAI)) those who did not worship" The presence of KAI determines if there is one group or two groups. It also influences the rendering of hostis; 'who' or 'whoever' or 'those who' and similar.
    That is why I focused on the omission of KAI as in the Kjv especially when it is present in the Textus Receptus, from which the Kjv was translated, Hence my comment that translations are subject to interpretation by the translator/s
    The NAS, ASV(on which the NAS is based) separate those beheaded from those who did not worship. Also Kenneth S. Wuest.... The New Testament---an expanded translation renders the subject text as "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and authority to administer justice was given them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony [they bore to] of Jesus and because of the word of God. And I saw those who were such that they did not worship the wild beast..........." We could go on citing various translation all day and make no significant progress because a lot of 'versions' are based not so much on the Greek texts, but rather just dressing up the language of some translation or other such as ASV >>NAS.


    But there are other things to consider:
    Those beheaded??? who are they really? John the Baptist was one, not sure about James, but as far as we know, there were only a handful who were or might have been beheaded. Most were being crucified and or fed to the Lions, and or burned alive; Polycarp for one. Over the centuries there might have been beheadings, I'm not aware that there were many though. Again the Reformation and inquisitions saw many burned alive also.

    Now, notice that in Rev 13, those who would not worship the image of the beast were to be killed, but the method of execution is not specified.
    Notice also that those who refused the mark of the beast were punished with economic sanctions (which would lead to death in many cases), but the idea of capital punishment is not present here.
    So taking the whole matter in context, those beheaded, were a small minority to attract so much attention as to have the first resurrection devoted to them alone.

    Rev 20:6 if those in the first resurrection are limited to only those executed for defying the beast, all other saints are in danger of the second death. That would be contrary to the rest of God's word.

    All Saints must take part in the first resurrection. This means that Rev20 is set at a point in time after the rapture, after the second coming of Christ No saints left behind.
    Blessings,
    calvin
     
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