Tares among the wheat

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Lanolin, Apr 19, 2015.

  1. "To what shall we liken the kingdom of God?"
    If a farmer knows the end or the harvest from the beginning by what seed is sown . How much the more does God know the end form the beginning?
    Is it not written "by their fruits shall ye know them"?
    How then do we come by the fruit if not by the seed that is sown?
    Is it not written God is a "husbandman"? Did he not speak of the "seed of the woman ,and the seed of the serpent"?
    if every seed bringeth forth fruit after its own kind is not each seed predestined to bring forth the fruit after its own kind then?
    It is not unreasonable to think that Adam was in many ways asl
    He is coming also physically "to the air" where those that are found ready will be caught up to meet him.
    You say Jesus does not knock on the door of the church? Then you need to re read rev 3:20.
    there is only one church and therefore only one door.
    You surmise that Jesus is INSIDE the church. I would argue that the church does not know God . That is "He who is from the beginning" I would also point out that after the resurection no door was an obstical to the Lord locked or otherwise .
    Why then does the Lord seem to be 'unable' (?) or unwilling to go into His own church?
    "IF we confess our sins then we have an advocate with the Father.........." Sins still need to be confessed when we commit albeit sin is already judged .
    The church is not ready . She cant be ready for she does less than the church at the reformation with what some boast as having more than they.
    We have false prophets and false Apostles parading before Gods people and Gods people are being "made merchandise" by them. Nor do they discern that they are false .
    There is little or none outreach save to promote ones own church or ministry and then only 2/3 times a year .
    prayer meetings but once a week and a church used but one day a week save for giving the world to do its work.
    Idolitory is on the increase and the Uk is much as it was in Gidions time.
    If the church is supposed to eb the salt of the earth and the salt is supposed to stop the meat from rotting and corruption is on the increase and lies the norm. Where then is the salt?
    we have so called revival meetings that are not much different than rock concerts of the world and then it is boasted the Holy Spirit is there .
    Then I say the Lord is outside of the church that prefers to do its own thing and keep its own traditions rather than be led by HIM to do HIS work. not only in the church "I will build my church......" but also in the world.
    The tabernacle made with hands was built to exacting specifications. Not of Moses but according to the pattern he saw in heaven.
    How much the more then the living tabernacle of God not made with hands?

    in Christ
  2. Hello @Lanolin,

    Well, you have had a lot of input, and given a lot in return, but what are YOUR conclusions, if any? I would be interested to know your final feedback.

  3. Pray. Being a Christian is a gift from God. It is not a religion but a personal relationship with Jesus. Ask God for guidance. He will lead you to church where you could strengthen your faith to Him.
    JG27_chili likes this.
  4. I've never even hinted otherwise.

    The Church is comprised of people who have opened the door to Jesus' knocking. The true Church of Jesus Christ is a vibrant entity, and despite what you think you see in the world---there is a precious, sweet savour among the people of God that will never be snuffed out.
  5. Amen!
  6. #126 geralduk, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
    The message in Ephesians is" to the churches" and while the message can in part be used as a likeness to the Lord knocking on the hearts door .Its actually is knocking on the door of the church .
    and even as John 3 16 is a call to the whole world to repent ;but the promise is to those who believe . So then in like manner the knocking on the door of the church is a call to the whole church to repent but the promise is to those who have ears to hear and open the door. To "THEM"..........
    I do not doubt at all that deep with in the church there are people living Godly in Christ Jesus. But that there are
    also many who are professing christians who are complacent at best . who while having their lamps lit have not their vessels full.
    Who maintain they are ready when the Lord comes because they are BORNagain.
    If we were to take your meaning then the world is in the church and you they ,me have heard the knocking and opened the door.
    and while there is much that is of the world in the church and much of the church in the world I say again that the world is not the church and that the message was "listen to what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES "
    The message then is to all who are in the church .Who are his .
    all those churches were called to repent save one the first one .
    We have made 40 YEARS wandering in the wilderness as the NORM of the christian life .When it took them only 40 DAYS to get from Egypt to the promised land .
    The church does not know God.
    It has in the main HEARD of Him and like Job have changed accordingly.
    But do not know Him "who is from the beginning"
    The times are coming and now is when we need and must know Him who is from the beginning .
    For the persecution of the saints in those lands of the 'west' so long relatively immune from it is most certainly coming .
    and the first inclinations of it have already started .
    The church is in dire need of Him who is without and it does not even know it .
    When Latimer and Ridley were being burnt at the stake Master Ridley cried out in pain and Latimer replied to him "be of good cheer .... we shall light a candle this day ,God willing that shall never go out .
    I say this .The flax is smoking and the reed is bruised .
    True then indeed God will not break the bruised reed or quench the smoking flax .But I say again where is the salt ? when the prevailing circumstances is a growing corruption and where in the UK they have made equal in law what is not equal in fact and therefore have to all intents and purposes made a lie equal to the truth in law.
    It is time to make our good best. For we are in danger of making the good the enemy of the best.

    in Christ
  7. In any church there will be varying levels of commitment .maturity and carnality and spiritual understanding .
    The question is who or what is the driving force of that church or as it were the majority ?

    In Christ
  8. geralduk:

    That is not so. Could you please indicate by pasting what you have perceived from what I said? It's important to me that people do not misunderstand me, although your apology is not necessary. Blessings!
  9. Sorry, but the Church does know God. It's the churches who are less than stellar.
  10. Yes and despite those levels of maturity and understanding, EVERY one who has accepted the gift of grace from God---namely salvation in Jesus Christ---is accepted in the beloved. Yes, make a righteous judgment about the state of churches, in their states of spiritual deadness and compromise, but please, hold the true Body of Christ in high esteem. Jesus does.
  11. Little children ye know the father and your sins are forgiven.
    Young men the Word of God abides in you and ye have overcome the wicked one.
    Ye fathers ye know Him who is from the beginning .

    I would put it to you that as many churches and many christians do not believe what the book of Genesis in the beginning says about the creation but would have a mix of the worlds ideas and Gods statements then they cannot know Him who is from the beginning.
    I would also say that as the primary concept of being saved is but to be BORNagain . Then that too would indicate a lack of knowledge as to Him who is from the beginning .
    That we have justified the 40 YEARS in the wilderness as the norm of christian life rather than see it as the scriptures speak of it as 40 DAYS .that sanctification should not take 40 years .
    In the 40 years in the wilderness they had miracles every day and twice on Saturday and more besides . They were still the people of God but they were outside the will of God .
    and Moses suffered without the camp.
    The church is in fact a prodigal church.

    in Christ
  12. #132 Euphemia, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
    Of all the Christians I know---and they are maybe about 1000 or more, I can say honestly, that none of them hold the mindset that it should take a generation of years to grow to maturity in Christ. Even when it does, that is the individual's journey, most likely fraught with compromise and weakness, but if that person has truly received Jesus Christ, then though he is weak, he is no less a child of God, forgiven and sanctified, and is considered a citizen of heaven.

    I have never experienced this, being a member of two very vital churches in my lifetime. I see all over the place, strong churches becoming stronger in their ministry to their communities and the world beyond...but in the case of compromised, worldly churches---they are weakening and literally closing their doors----and as this tendency continues, the people who come out of these dead churches will seek and find the Lord Jesus Christ, true fellowship and Spirit-led teaching in the stronger churches. This is happening everywhere, and these strong, large churches are becoming more and more commonplace.

    But, you must separate your judgment of the local churches to the true Church---the Body of Christ, who is without spot or wrinkle. Maybe the difference between you and I is that while I see the doughnut, you can only see the hole.

  13. Would you say that we need what's priestly, in order for things to be maintained? The sort of priestly actions and activities we find in Leviticus, in relation to the Lord Jesus.
  14. I can only say what I have seen and heard .
    Let me be clear as to a true BORN child of God.
    If a person is BORN of the "water " That is the Word of God and of the Spirit .Then they are baptised into the Church or body of Christ once and for ever by the Holy Ghost.
    Paul warns the church the church to which I am a member of not to be like the children of Israel " who failed to enter into the promise through unbeleif" and in another place not to be decieved like Eve.
    She too did not believe God but believed another message .Even as the vast majority of the children of Israel believed not God but believed the wrong message .
    They who failed to enter nto the promise were still children of God .God did not leave them nor forsake them .He fed and kept them for 40 years and their cloths did not wear out in all that time . They had miracles every day twice on Saturday .But they were out of the will of God .
    The vast majority of christians have never been taught about the Bride of Christ save that as soon as you are BORNagain you are autmatically part of the Bride . The rest of scripture does not support such teaching.
    Every and all true BORN children of God are called to that high calling. Whether a person responds or has ears to hear is another matter . Again the 5 foolish virgins are of this group.
    As to your second point . Even the very best of churches is still part of a prodigal church . and I use the word as it is used in the gospels .
    We have been a prodigal church since the reformation and each protestant denomination that has arisen since then has bene a forward movement of the church .But each movement of the church has always needed someone outside the church to knock on its door ,Because each move of God has come to a halt and instead of going out into the world and doing the work of God they have found a pleasant place and said let us build a high tower and a name for ourselves and stopped and indeed have made a name for themselves but have stagnated or lost the fire.
    Indeed the very truths understood and known by each are now denied and contended by some and those self same denominations are returning to old ways that were left at the reformation.
    Of a truth they did far more then than the church does now .Yet we or some boast that we have a better understanding than they. We have far more than they in terms of biblical truth and material and bibles and commentaries and printing and the like . But I do not see the world turned upside down as it was then. I do not see great changes in the communities we llive in. What I do see is a church asleep and the rise of false religions .Corruption in very high places and the very foundations of this nations christian liberties being undermined continually. "The righteous are surrounded by the wicked " and the church does not know God. Save as "little children" who know the father and their sins are forgiven . But not so many of "ye young men the word fo God dwells in your richly and ye have overcome the wicked one "
    and fewer still of "ye fathers ye know Him who si from the beginning "
    I have read of true revivals of God in the past .I have heard of them and convinced that those recorded manifested a real work of God .
    I have heard of revivals today and they are nothing like them or of scripture.
    I do not say individuals and churches do not and have not felt the quickening power of God in their lives. I say that that is not a revival . Gidion had a revival. Nehamia had a revival. etc .
    I read in John 8 of a woman who found grace and mercy and some religionists who sought to be justified by the law and recieved the law in answer. But before that chapter I read that while every one went to their house ,The Lord went up to the mountain to pray . He always had a revival and he quickened whom he willed .
    But I read recently of the prophet who complained on Gods behalf how every one went to their own house but the house of God was in ruins.
    I was struck by the fact that each ruined life was the temple of God or should be . But we are rich increased in goods and in need of nothing ?
    In Isiah God says is this not the fast that I have chosen? That ye feed the hungry,cloth the naked and bring them into your own house ? as it also says that ye break every yoke open the eyes of the blind and set the captives free.
    The church is not primarily a social service or centre.
    When it says feed the hungry it means break the bread of life to them .When it says cloth the naked it means with righteousness and lead them to the house of God and to the God of the house of God.
    To break every yoke is not in the courts or with protest marches but with the annointing of God "that destroys the yoke" To open the eyes of the blind is not just the miracle of sight . But also to open the eyes of the blind that all men may see what is the hope of His calling etc.
    Greater works shall ye do said Jesus ... There is nothing greater than raising the dead .So it must mean that while he was 'limited' to the lost sheep of the house of isrtael we are called to go out into all the world .
    Adam and Eve were told to go out from the garden of Eden from that pleasant place and replenish the world .I would argue that what they had seen God do in the garden of Eden they were to go and do likewise through out the world and make the rest of the world like a garden of eden.
    What I see my father doing that do I said the Lord .
    I would therefore suggest that while we may have heard of Him who is from the beginning we do not know the Creator .
    For when Job confessed " I have heard of thee" what he ahd heard of God had transformed his life to such an extent that God could as it were boast of him in heaven ."hast thou seen my servant Job"?
    But when God began to reveal himself through his creation ;"were you there ..." did you see etc etc etc .Jod "repented in dust and ashes and said I have heard of three now I see thee...I repent in dust and ashes"
    What did he have need to repent of? Before men nothing . Before a Holy Creator ;everything .
    Isiah the same in chapter 5(?)
    many have heard of God and many have heard of revivals .
    I say then the church has heard of the Creator ,But do not know Him.
    The Bride of Christ will have a perpetual revival .
    A well of living water springing up continually that will give life to all who are thirsty and not primarily for her own use .
    She will be like a tree planted by the living waters whos roots go deep (even to the beginning) .A tree is actually a fountain of water . For if you cut the top off the trunk of the tree water will come bubbling up out of it .
    The best of us then are still part of a prodigal church .
    and we need to know Him who is from the beginning .

    in Christ
  15. You would have to clarify that more for me to be able to answer you.

    The alter of prayer was continually lit. we are called to be continually in prayer as individuals . But one prayer meeting a week for a church ,I would suggest is not enough . The prayer room of the church is its power house . The nature ,conduct ,objectives and the numbers in a church prayer meeting are a good barometer of its priorities .
    It is not as easy as people think to either come together In "Jesus name" as it is not so easy to ask "in Jesus name " or be of the same mind "to agree together"
    The high priest carried on his heart the 12 stones representign the tribes or all of Israel .
    When Jesus said we should pray after this patter "OUR father ......."
    There is the sense that when we pray we are to be mindful of and be not so much taken up with MY father . But of the Body of which we are a part.
    at the place of sacrifice to which all must come by. That is under the sun and we see things from our perspective and we more often than not pray accordingly .
    But the pattern of the first curtain is the same pattern of the second curtain and as we were all called to enter the first so also we are called to enter the second. But not before we have put off the old man and put on the robes of righteosness and washed our hands (works) and feet (walk) .
    In the Holy place there is no natural light . The light we have here is that of the 7 branched lamp speaking of the Holy Spirit and the shew bread speaking of the Word of God .Here then we walk not by sight but by faith according to the light of the Word of God and the Spirit of God. He too we begin to understand that allbeit God supplies our every need .He is not our servant but we His .
    and while we cannot deny the reality of the world in which we live in . When we come into the presence of God we learn to see things from His perspective .Even as David when he saw the prosperity of the wicked "acted like a beast towards God" When he came into the presence of God he then saw their end .
    We carry the burdens of what we see and then bring them to God where the world does not see and can pray and intercede for others but primarily that Gods kingdom will come and be manifest . and when we know not WHAT to pray the Holy Spirit works in us with "groanings that cannot be uttered ..........." Some prayers will mean we will weep and be in agony before God.
    Paul said once he was in travail as a women gives birth!
    I still think that only one can still enter into the Holy of Holies.
    All be it the scriptures say we can boldly enter in .
    But it is now the one of being "One even as we are one" John 17
    For to pray in Jesus name is to pray in HIS stead and to see things as Gods sees things and pray accordingly .In Jesus name.

    In Christ
  16. The crossing of the wilderness is the sanctification of the people of God .
    The separation FROM the world unto God.
    Maturity is another matter entirely . That will take longer .
    For some than for other .For each tree "brings its leaf in its season"

    in Christ
  17. I was thinking of the offerings we see in the first part of Leviticus. Aaron and his sons offered them, and they had a portion from them - they fed on the offerings, Christ in type. In carrying out their priestly service, they maintained the whole congregation of Israel before God. We are all priests - that is our standing before God - but not all of us really have a priestly spirit, sad to say. Many don't take up their priestly service. Those who do can really be the driving force of the locality, and maintain things for the pleasure of God, even where there's weakness. Taking up priestly service would require maturity - not necessarily age, because there is such a thing as youthful maturity - because it would require a well-formed appreciation of Christ. A person like that could be a great help to others. For example, in Leviticus 1:14-17, where the the appreciation of Christ by the offerer is so small and feeble that it's represented by the type of fowl, it's the priest that presents the offering to God, removing the crop and feathers (what is of the flesh that has become mixed in) before he does so. The one who brings the offering is unable to offer it, but even where there's extreme weakness such as this, a priestly person can facilitate the offering up of something of sweet savour to God.

    That was my impression - I hope that clarifies things.
  18. I hope my previous post will show what I think in some measure.
    But in answer to yours .
    "a well formed apreciation of Christ" When I do a jigsaw puzzle whether it be 100 pieces or 5000 or more .The first thing I look for are the side pieces and the corners. Because no matter how many pieces there are in the jigsaw they are the easiest to identify and put together.
    I equate these pieces with what Paul describes as the "milk of the Word" Able to be put together by anybody 'young' or 'old'. They are relatively speaking easy not only to put together but also in their right places.
    Once completed .It is a certainty beyond dispute that there is nothing outside the 'frame' and all is inside . If you do not start with the side pieces you cannot tell where any piece has its place.
    Now one mans aproach can be different to another after that . I like to go with lines .Any line that goes through a piece i pick out from the other mass. Because I find this the easiest and far easier to join lines together than a 'picture'.
    After a while I find I have various lumps of pieces that I put where I think they lay in the scheme of things and as I continue those lumps get bigger and others are added to them. After a while I find pieces that join one lump to another and then things get tricky because the bigger the lump of pieces the more unwieldy it becomes and the more driven I am to make sure it is in the right place to start with . At some point i begin to see what each lump depicts and know what pieces do not go with it and which do . As things continue I eventually 'see' what the whole picture is even though the puzzle is not complete at all . Once I see that I know where each lump does go and where it does not. I also know where pieces will come to go even though they do not as yet 'fit' there .I also know where some friend may want to put a piece but it will not .
    Things then become much easier once I get the 'picture '. So it is with the study of the Word of God .
    It is not then a question of conjecture or opinion but a certain knowledge .
    I find also that the sky or heaven I always leave till last as it is for me the hardest to fathom and piece together as one piece to my eyes looks very much like another . The heavenly things then take much longer .But I also look for the lines or edges of the clouds or any other 'known' bit that intrudes into the sky.
    Get a false image in your imagination and your 'lost' get what the scripture and by that God want you to see and understand then we get somewhere.
    Does that men then I know all things and cannot eb corrected . Of course not. This is after all a VERY big jigsaw puzzle as it were .
    But when the Spirit of truth shall come and he has come to abide with us forever not only will we know by Him"the spirit of error " But He wil lead us into all truth " and we will not need for any to teach us . That clearly does not mean we have no need of teachers because Ephesians teaches that one of the ministry of God to the church is a teacher who with the others perfects the body of Christ "unto the perfect man"
    Why I hesitated to answer you at first till you clarified was because in rev it speaks of the Nicolaitins who were first in practice and second by doctrine held power over the laity and we eventualy got the ritualistic priesthood we have to day who "by their traditions make the Word of God of none effect"
    The purpose of any minister then is not to Lord it over the flock or "make merchandise" of them but lead the flock in the way as God has so led them.to the same end .
    The young lad who offered up his little lunch of 5 loaves and 5 fishes could not meet the need . But he none the less put it in the hands of the Lord .Who took it with thanks and blessed it . He then gave it to the disciples who then gave it to the people and it fed 5000 people and met the need.
    It is not then our ability that will meet the need but our availability to God and our lives in HIS hands .That he then takes and blesses and meets the need of the hour though each and every one wholy given into his hands .
    Is it not written "he takes the weak and the foolish things of this world to confound the strong and the mighty"?
    True it was that Peter ,James and John "were ignorant and unlearned men " But it was noted they had been with Jesus .
    One lump of clay is as much the same as another in a field of clay . It is not the clay that makes the difference its the potter in whos hands that lump is in. and it si the potter who determines to what use he make of it.,
    and makes the difference .
    Those who boast about some innate difference between them and the unsaved as if there was anything in them that made them different for the rest of humanity , delude themselves . Paul ,says we were all by NATURE " sons of disobedience " and therefore worthy of hell and damnation as any other man .
    Thus what God requires of all men is to "present your bodies as living sacrifice wholy and acceptable unto God which is our REASONABLE service" that w emay know and prove what is that good and acceptable will of God.
    what we should not do is ask the potter what is he making ?
    Or contend with the potter as to what he is making. If you give your 'lunch ' to the Lord its no longer yours to say with . it is His to do with as what pleases Him.
    So we come not unto a temple made with hands .Nor a priesthood of the flesh .
    God receives what we give him in and through Jesus Christ by faith .
    Our words in prayer are often feeble and inadequate . Some oen may indeed say some thing in a prayer meeting that perfectly expresses our heart and we can say with all conviction "amen" to it that is due .For we are of the same mind and heart while our lips may differ.
    We may give but a sigh or a groan and God hears it still in Jesus name.
    Grant Melville likes this.
  19. Thank you for your very full answer. It's encouraging to see a true understanding of what Nicolaitanism is: so many - particularly in the national and the so-called orthodox and catholic churches - misconstrue that scripture and make it devoid of meaning. A separate class of persons as priests or clergy is, of course, entirely unscriptural.
  20. Hear, hear!

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