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Stuck on a verse in John

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by SweetSurrender, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. Stuck on a verse in John

    John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." They were Yours (God's) and You gave them to Me? There are at least 2 more times this is said; verses 9 and 11. How were we God's, and then given to Jesus?

    It is also kinda confusing to me that Jesus is talking to God. Aren't the two of them one? I guess I'm just confused that Jesus is talking to God. Like when He prayed to the Father in the Garden. Maybe I just still don't understand the Trinity. ?? But, I'm sure that has been hashed over enough. We don't need to start that again, I'm sure. And then to further compound this chapter, in John 17: 24, it says "for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." Wasn't Jesus there before the foundation of the world? Hope this is not too confusing. Sweets
     
  2. hmmm interesting question i will definatly have to read more of that chapter to get a better understanding (in my mind any way) but here is what i think so far. when GOd says he is giving us to Jesus i think it has more to do with passing our sin on to Jesus. where God (the father) was the only one who was able to forgive our sins (gennerally through the sacrifice of an animal in the OT if i am not mistaken) He (GOd) passed that responsibility to Jesus giving him (Jesus) the power to forgive our sins especially when Jesus was crucified. i could be tottaly off on that but there is my view
     
  3. I hate to bring in another quandry, but what you said above, the underlined, makes me question another verse in John 20:23 "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." It almost sounds like we can forgive sins, but that can't be. Does it mean if someone does us wrong, we should forgive them that wrongdoing to us? But then, how do we "retain" their sin?

    I'm sorry, when I start reading the Bible, it just seems like I come up with things I don't understand. But, I am reading the whole book, not just taking things out of context. I don't mean to be argumentative. :eek:
     
  4. questions are good they help me learn and this is somthing i am going to have to look up and read further in to but once again i will give my basic understanding of this. can we forgive sin? absolutly not we are not God and only God can do that, how ever if some one wrongs us we moste certanly can forgive them for that (if you so chose to). forgiving some one who has hurt you is MUCH different than forgiving some ones sins. for example say i were to steal somthing from you, you could forgive me for stealing the object from you but you could not forgive me for the sin of theft. for one to be forgiven of their sins they MUST pray, it doesnt matter what the sin is or if the person even knows they sined. God gave Jesus the power to forgive our sins while he walked the earth and in the end Jesus gave him self up as the ultimate sacrifice to our sins. i know my answer is very lacking and when i have more time i will definatly have to read that chapter and look in to it more.
     
  5. Good questions here - and challenging. In John 17:6-9 Jesus is praying specifically for his twelve disciples. Later on in the chapter in v. 12 he says that he has protected them and onlyh lost one "the one doomed for destruction", i.e. Judas.

    He was before the foundation of the world and loved by the Father then as was the Holy Spirit.

    Sometimes it is difficult for us, living in time, to understand what happens in eternity. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Father knows the beginning from the end. Jesus allowed himself to be limited by time. Amazing isn't it that He who knew all about the splitting of the atom went to bed by candlelight. He who could move between heaven and earth, rode on a donkey or went on foot. Only after his resurrection were these limitations removed.

    He said "before Abraham was I am" - thus saying that he was God - this annoyhed the Pharisees and they tried to kill him.

    Keep on reading the Word of God and the Spirit of God will lead you into all truth.
     
  6. Thank you, Jeanann. That was an interesting concept of Jesus coming down to earth and living by candle light after having created all there is.

    But, I still carry this question no one has answered yet:
    John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." They were Yours (God's) and You gave them to Me? There are at least 2 more times this is said; verses 9 and 11. How were we God's, and then given to Jesus?
    There has to be an answer. The Mormons believe we were in heaven as spirit children before being sent to earth. So they belonged to God, and then were given to Jesus when they were saved? Is it possible we were spirit children and came from heaven as such? I don't believe like the Mormons anymore, but if we weren't spirit children, then what could this mean. Must be too simple to get it. :eek:
     
  7. ok i am going to go back to your first question here now that i have a bit more time and have read more of the verses befor and after John 17:6. to be honest i think you really need to read John 17:6-19 to get a full grasp of exactly what is taking place in that one verse and to get it in the right context. now i prefer the NKJV version of the bible and that specific block of verses is titled Jesus Prays for His Disciples. now that i have read that full section i dont think it is about God giving Jesus any thing really (Jesus was/is allready the King of kings and Lord of lords what more could he have?) but instead it is about Jesus praying for not only his disciples but any who follw Him. now in this i find that John 17:9-10 to be very important in helping explane “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them." to me in these two verses Jesus is basicly saying hey God i know you gave me power over all of our followers but they are still yours just as much as they are mine please help me help them.

    now i shall move on to your second question about man being able to forgive sins of other men. with this you referd to John 20:23 wich is a very powerful verse BUT if you read that verse alone (in my oppinion) you will take it vastly out of context so lets start with John 20:19-23 19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled,[c] for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
    21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” yes to me here it is very clear that Jesus gave some men (the disciples) the power to forgive sins. now the way i take these verses is that we have thepower to forgive people who have hurt us some how and we were also provided with the choice to beable to retain their sins (in other words not forgive them). now with that being said we may have the power to forgive those who hurt us i believe it falls on the person to pray and repent for their sins to be washed away and for them to be purified and that is somthing only Jesus can do.
     
  8. Wow, Chris! I think you are right!! I knew it had to be something simple. Sometimes it's hard to think outa' the box, ya know? It makes sense that Jesus would thank the Father for giving Him the 12 Desciples. (or is that Apostles?) Thanx for the good answer, Chris.
     
  9. More public domain commentaries can be found at biblegateway.com

    His prayer for his disciples.



    Christ prays for those that are his. Thou gavest them me, as sheep to the shepherd, to be kept; as a patient to the physician, to be cured; as children to a tutor, to be taught: thus he will deliver up his charge. It is a great satisfaction to us, in our reliance upon Christ, that he, all he is and has, and all he said and did, all he is doing and will do, are of God. Christ offered this prayer for his people alone as believers; not for the world at large. Yet no one who desires to
    come to the Father, and is conscious that he is unworthy to come in his own name, need be discouraged by the Saviour's declaration, for he is both able and willing to save to the uttermost, all that come unto God by him. Earnest convictions and desires, are hopeful tokens of a work already wrought in a man; they begin to evidence that he has been chosen unto salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. They are thine; wilt thou not provide for thine own? Wilt thou not secure them? Observe the foundation on which this plea is grounded, All mine are thine, and thine are mine. This speaks the Father and Son to be one. All mine are thine. The Son owns none for his, that are not devoted to the service of the Father. (Jn 17:11-16)

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    About this commentary:
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible is available in the Public Domain.

    The people dispute concerning Christ.



    The malice of Christ's enemies is always against reason, and sometimes the staying of it cannot be accounted for. Never any man spake with that wisdom, and power, and grace, that convincing clearness, and that sweetness, wherewith Christ spake. Alas, that many, who are for a time restrained, and who speak highly of the word of Jesus, speedily lose their convictions, and go on in their sins! People are foolishly swayed by outward motives in matters of eternal moment, are willing even to be damned for fashion's sake. As the wisdom of God often chooses things which men despise, so the folly of men commonly despises those whom God has chosen. The Lord brings forward his weak and timid disciples, and sometimes uses them to defeat the designs of his enemies.

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    About this commentary:
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible is available in the Public Domain.
     
  10. Thank you, Least! That was all so beautiful! I will have to learn how to get these commentaries. Sweets
     
  11. find a tool called e-sword it can be downloaded for free. it has multiple different versions of the bible and TONS of comentaries (some better than others but thats to be expected). like least said Bible gateway is very good you can also try blue letter bible (i prefer bible gateway over blue letter bible just because it is much easier to use)
     

  12. We all should forgive, But there is a difference between forgiveness and Rimmitance.

    The Greek original text says about John 20: 23.
    The disciples had no power to rimmit, but to tell a repentant person that they are forgiven by God, and God has rimmited their sins.
     

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