Discussion in 'Fellowship Time' started by 福井舞, Mar 3, 2015.
are those two mutually exclusive or can you be both at the same time
Do you have a specific example?
I would like an example too.
Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV)
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I have heard it put this way. We forgive over and over and forget. We love our enemies and pray for them and so forth.
God never said give your keys to your truck to a thief or an alcholic.
God said invite people into your homes.......He never said invite or leave your family alone with a person who loves to force sex or likes married woman.
God tells us to forgive over and over........He never told us to be a door mat.
There may come a time when doing the RIGHT thing is nothing more then protecting your family.......I do forgive real easy, I do love, I do not hold record of wrongs.....I will not allow you to hurt my family and I WILL do what ever I have to to do so.
Thats How I see this.....
That's an excellent way to live Jim; we shouldn't hold grudges.
there are many examples I can give
I will give this one
I was at this fellowship once, there was this young man who didn't particular get on, what I found difficult was every single time we have a disagreement, he used his power as the leader of fellowship to actively exclude me, among other things.
what I have found is turning the other cheek doesn't work, at least not long term anyway, because I have tried it, what I have found is it buys you temporary peace, but long term it just send out the wrong message to the other person, in this case, this young man never really did take any responsibility for his behaviours, every time he abuses his power, he often make up some excuses that he could not help it, and he could not help it if he does it times and times again.
it was almost as if he expected people to just let him off the hook every single time in the name of forgiveness, but never make any serious attempts to cut his behaviours out. and he never did.
Another example I can give , which I have witness today on the bus, is this drunken man using racial slur to hassle this Asian lady, and I happen to belong to this racial group. I can see other Asian passengers were deeply offended. I actually felt sorry for him because there has to be a reason why someone would be drunk during working hours.
Anyway, there was another European passenger who was brave enough to speak up, basically telling this drunken man to cut it out and stop bullying this Asian lady. I actually thought he did the right thing, because while I feel for this man and had no ill feeling towards him, I also feel that loving someone and condoning their behaviours are two separate issues. I mean in end of the day, it would not be fair to that Asian lady if we sit by and watch and do nothing simply because we felt sorry for him, after all his behaviours was wrong and sinful.
but that is just the way I look at it.
Holding grudges would be holding aught and it is written Mark 11:25 KJV
And when you stand praying, Forgive if ye have aught against any: that your Father also which is in Heaven may forgive your trespasses.
This tells me several things.....
When I stand Praying...FORGIVE.....this means right then and there...for you cant stand praying until you get around to forgiving some one.
If I have aught against another and then pray.....my prayer will be ineffective and useless and brought to nought. So why wait to forgive......
Then you look to the fruits of the Spirit......I can not find any place among them that you could include holding a grudge or unforgivness....especially wi th Love in the picture....
So in my eyes it is not only anexcellent way to live....It's The Only Way To Live ....
Thanks You Brother for reminding me of this.....
Excluding you isn't a very Christian thing to do...we are equal in the eyes of God.
One Biblical preacher once said (along the lines of), "Be kind but don't be a pushover, we must stand up for ourselves or we will be taken for advantage".
@福井舞 Hello Brother,
(what I have found is turning the other cheek doesn't work, at least not long term anyway, because I have tried it, what I have found is it buys you temporary peace, but long term it just send out the wrong message to the other person, in this case, this young man never really did take any responsibility for his behaviours, every time he abuses his power, he often make up some excuses that he could not help it, and he could not help it if he does it times and times again.
it was almost as if he expected people to just let him off the hook every single time in the name of forgiveness, but never make any serious attempts to cut his behaviours out. and he never did.))
Brother it is not that turning the other cheek did not work.....it's your flesh did not work it.
Let me explain......
God tells us to walk in Love and In Forgiveness. He tells us to forgive no matter who was in fault. He never told us that the other person has to except or change their way...He only said to forgive them.
This bit about forgiving is FOR OUR benefit and OUR OWN HEART. It keeps us with out fault in the situation. Now then walking in Love which must be included when Forgiveness is involved. You can not separate the two. Now Love says you have to pray for the other person and not a God fix this person type of prayer. No !! It must be a prayer of Love or In Love for this person.
Another words lifting them up and blessing them...GET THIS BROTHER...it also means asking God what you can change about you to bless the one who offended you. Yea I know that sounds dumb....maybe but it is what God has worked in me and Ohhhhh Man oh man has it ever set me free...Why did it set me free ?
Well I will tell you......It set me free because when we humble our selves like this unto the very written word of God and do what it says it Makes a way for GOD TO MOVE in that situation...No Joke Brother......God acts on His word......You want to see results...pray His word and do His word.....
This has proven true time after time, I saw a guard at work who was setting me up to be fired actually get demoted and the company lost their contract...YES I am totally convinced that God moved on my behalf because no matter what she did or how hard she made it or how many times I got chewed out or jumped on by other people in authority in the company I CHOSE to walk in Love and Forgive her....Every single time, night after night, week after week,. Then Boom......out of no where, other guards stand up for me even though it cost them their job...Now that is God brother...
I hope this paints a better picture for you.
Love in Christ Brother
Both. Sometimes smacking a bully is loving them.
You are totally right, that loving someone and condoning their behavior is two different things. There is a very good reason why you could look with the compassion of Jesus on the disruptive man, i believe that God would have you to pray for him in your daily prayers for salvation and deliverance from alcohol. It does not matter that you do not know his name, God will know exactly who you are talking about. Maybe you could interceed for God to heal him of whatever it is that is making him, face the world with a drink. The Love of God releases forgiveness towards that man, for his behavior, and prays for his deliverance. You have an awesome position my friend. If you desire to accept it. Not being pushy, just saying it's your choice.
I agree with fish of faith, and fish catcher. One has to have a balance, in their life. Not being a pushover, yet not being aggressive either. And if you are one that does not like confrontation, God certainly could use you to be a prayer warrior!
May the Lord richly bless you in all that you do
1. Those who are in leadership positions and abuse their power have a special judgment waiting for them James 3:1. Helping them see the log in their eye / the need to judge themselves harsher is loving them. What I would do if I were you (and the situation was very real / material) is go to the guy say X and Y was a joke for a Christian in leadership. You do forgive him and have for a while. You are not trying to be self righteous but rather help a brother as there are serious warnings for those that stumble us Luke 17:2 'It is high time a leader such as himself get on his own knees and examine himself in fear and trembling before a holy God Phil 2:12'. Remember you are there to 1. grow closer to the Lord, 2. be helped / make friends and 3. help / share / exhort /restore others. Of course it all starts with proper self examination. Are you right with Christ? Could it be that we are the non-Christian?
2. The Christian thing to do.....would be to defend the lady immediately! A drunk who is racist just may do something stupid. This is like a Christian acid test. If nothing arises in us to defend the weak, then we fail at Christianity. Like I said above, in this case if he tried something a good smack will teach him a valuable lesson.
I guess many think doing nothing = loving the enemy. That is not loving the enemy. It is doing nothing / hating the weak / casting pearl before swine.
Over the last 10 years the Lord has taught and continues to teach me it is not about me. It is about Him, He says what/how we deal with others we also are doing to Him. In situation with others it makes no difference what others do I am to be accountable for my actions whether they be reaction or response. I react from the flesh I respond in Spirit. Trials in my life seemed to repeat themselves over and over until I no longer recognized them as trials. Maybe this is how God deals with me. The things/people in my life who bother me the most seem to be the ones I embrace the most. He gives me strength in my weakness when dealing with others because of my self I can't love them but He can He will He does. This verse I love because I find comfort knowing everything has reason and He is in control. Rom 5: 3-5
I thought about the piece of glass
I found while walking by the sea
I thought about this piece of glass
How it was like me
Trials and tribulation
All the things this life
Has thrown at me
Is the sand that You used
To Shape my life
Like the glass in the sea.
The Ocean is like Your hand
Like the glass I could not get free
Until the edges that were sharp
Were smooth as can be.
As the glass tumbled in the sand
My life it tumbled in Your hand
Your work will not be through
Until the day
You look at this
Piece of Glass
All You see