Spiritual Revelation Is Required To Believe Spiritual Truths

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by evangelist-77, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. Please witness 5 major examples:

    1 – In the OT, God personally revealed spiritual truth only to His prophets, not to the others.

    2 -- God must provide a small seed of faith for one to believe the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.

    3 -- Jesus spoke in parables so only those with “ears to hear” spiritual truth would believe it.

    4 -- Many supposed born-again Christians just do not have “eyes to see” the Trinity Scriptures.

    5 -- Many born-again Christians just do not have the revelation that
    the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the 9 spiritual gifts are still for today.

    Explanatory note for point 2 above:

    God had His reasons for choosing whom He would elect before the foundation of the world.
    IMO, there are 2 major types of born-again believers:
    -- elect … guaranteed to be saved … overcomers who co-operate with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified.
    -- non-elect … non-overcomers who do not co-operate with being sanctified, and will not be saved.

    I believe this way because God’s many NT warnings are to believers (not to unbelievers),
    and I do not believe they are lies or empty threats just to frighten believers into sanctification.

    I am very interested in your comments on these difficult topics.

  2. Hi evangelist,

    In terms of point one - it is true God revealed spiritual truths through the prophets but He also revealed truths through His law, through pagan kings and even through a Donkey. God chooses many ways in which to reveal spiritual truths, He even uses creation to testify of His exisitence (a spiritual truth).

    Point two - Faith does come from God.

    Point three - "ears to hear" is found throughout scripture and it simply refers to people choosing to listen or not to listen. Jesus spoke in parables so the message could be simply understood and nobody could have an excuse. Jesus spoke to all men regardless of their "spiritual eyes" as He loves all men and wanted all to come to salvation. People who "hear" but choose not to hear are in rebellion to God (Eze. 12:2). If spiritual truths were only revealed through spiritual eyes then we would have to limit the gospel to a few 'spiritual' people in church. This is similar to the old Catholic response when they limited scripture to the priests only.

    Point 4: - How do you come to this conclusion? Is it through your own judgment?

    Point 5: - Here I agree with you, but why limit the Holy Spirit to only nine gifts? The lists of Paul are not in anyway meant to be exhaustive lists.

    I noticed your whole thread has a Calvanistic slant. God loves the whole world, He does not want a single person to be lost, as we are all created in His image but God knows who will submit their lives to Him and who wont (He knows all things). God has given man the freewill to choose and that choice has been given to all men, not just some. Those that choose God have been predestined to eternal life, not the other way around. In all reality all men have been "predestined" to be with God but only a few choose to do so.

    Lets not judge who has spiritual eyes and who doesnt - Lets leave the conviction and teaching of spiritual truths to the Holy Spirit.
  3. I agree with you Kevin.

    "77"......We must always remember that election refers to the saved and never to the lost.
  4. Agreed
  5. A question: is that part of your quote that I have turned to blue is in reference to point 2 or point 5 below?

    It seems like the blue portion of your quote is more applicable towards point 5 rather than point 2, not that I agree with point 5 at all BTW.

    So I reckon some clarity is needed on your part because I am not understanding your meaning here.
  6. Point #1, God revealed truth to people like Adam and King Nebuchadnezzar neither of which are called prophets in the OT.
    Point #3, When asked why He spoke to the people in parables, the Lord responded, "To you [disciples] it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them [the people to whom He spoke in parables] it has not been granted" (Mt. 13:11). Sometimes parables were used to conceal the truth.
    Point #4, If they can't see the Trinity in the Scripture, are they really born-again believers.
    Point #5, Leading up to Pentecost, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was spoken of as something prophetic: take note of the future tense in Mt. 3:11; Mk. 1:8; Luke 3:16; Jn. 1:33; Acts 1:5. Then came Pentecost which was the Holy Spirit first filling the room and then filling the disciples, hence an immersion into the Spirit. From that point on, the baptism of the Holy Spirit was described as an historical event. Note the aorist tense used in Acts 11:16 and I Cor. 12:13.
    Major likes this.
  7. There are no scripture citing that kind of judgment in regards to the dotrine of the Trinity, however, denying the deity of Christ does come with a cost of dying in their sins, but again, that does not mean they are not saved. It just means that unless they repent, they will find themselves denied at the pre tribulational rapture event for not being found abiding in Him, but know that even those that believe in His name, are saved and thus Christ is still in them which is why He will finish His work even in those left behind to face the coming great tribulation.

    2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    Consider this truth below:

    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

    That is why those that are His disciples are to teach other believers to be His disciples too, and not just write them off when they go astray and stop believing in Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

    So what a believer builds on that foundation which was laid in Christ Jesus will be judged, but he is still saved.

    Remember those coming out of the great tribulation had to have their robes washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, thus indicative of those who had believed in Him, even in His name, but had died in their sins. That can be applicable towards those that deny His deity to even those that sown to the flesh in reaping corruption.

    Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    So there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth that these saints will need a miracle from God to get over their loss as the prodigal son will find that he is still son even though he gave up his first inheritance for wild living.

    They will be destroyed from being that vessel unto honour in His House to become that vessel unto dishonour in His House as even then, they will testify to the saving power of God in Jesus Christ for all those that believe, even in His name.

    But the door to the Marriage Supper is still open and thus the call to look to the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight and sin to depart from iniquity and be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes for the ready bride.

    Actually, it was not the Holy Spirit filling the room, but a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind filled all the house where they were sitting.

    Acts 2:1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

    The Holy Spirit has been given the parameter of being known by dwelling within us and not outside of us where the spirits of the antichrist dwell so it is important to stick to what the scripture says as a sound from heaven filled the room.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world....4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    Some have taken this verse out of context to justify identifying the presence in the place as being the Holy Spirit, but they err not knowing the scripture.

    Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    This reference was about prayer and Jesus giving His promise of being our Mediator between us and God. "In the midts of them" is not referring to being among them in Spirit, because whenever Jesus refers to the Spirit, Jesus uses the pronoun "he" or "him" instead of "I" which when using "I" in verse 20 above, Jesus was talking about Himself in what He will do in the future in regards to prayer in verse 19.

    Anyway, clarity is needed as keeping the faith is the good fight.

    2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
  8. Kevin,

    No, Jesus said He spoke in parables so that ONLY those with ears to hear would indeed hear !!!

    I have met several supposedly born-again people who do not believe in the Trinity.

    If God has to give a tiny seed of faith for one to believe, this is being chosen and called, etc.
    I say tiny because it is nothing compared to the gift of faith in 1 Cor. 12.
  9. Enow,

    Your blue refers to the end of point 2 … elect and non-elect.
    There’s nothing in point 5 about sanctification.
    Sorry that I’m speaking gibberish.
  10. Okay, I guess we're still using the aorist tense these days.

    1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
    2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
    3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
    4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
    5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
    6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
    7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

    ------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
    the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
    baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
    the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
    upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
    laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
    filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
    received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
    speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
    power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
    boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
    miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---

    Can you follow this chart? See all of the linkages?
  11. I gotta go with Jack here..........

    Jack Williamson said:
    Point #4, If they can't see the Trinity in the Scripture, are they really born-again believers.​
  12. I guess this means something to someone, but not to me.

  13. JACK: I've read this post of yours several times and I can't make out heads or tails of what in the world you're talking about.
  14. m
    Nor to me.
  15. What does speaking to ears that would hear actually mean? It means those that hear the message and apply it to their lives. Nothing spiritual about it, only obedience vs. rebellion.

    Jesus spoke in parables to the religious leaders - the same ones who demanded He be killed. Jesus did not super spiritualize the parables. I can tell a parable of Jesus to an unbeliever and they will understand it, but will they listen to it? The same goes for my children, I can tell them a story to emphasize a lesson in life, they will hear the message, but will they listen to it?
  16. Hi Major, while on the surface I tend to agree with you and Jack, we need to be careful. Believers are at different stages in their understanding of Jesus Christ. I would definitely say that the natural progression of a Christian would be belief in the Trinity but initial belief in the Trinity is not a requirement for salvation.

    I know a few people who struggle with the concept of the Trinity but I also know others who after a huge amount of study have disregarded the Trinity and have become heretical in their beliefs. These people I would say are not really born again Christians but those that have not yet grasped the concept of the Trinity, we should not throw out with the bath water.

    I find it interesting that in different churches, different aspects of the Trinity are emphasized. In many of the older traditional churches the emphasis is on God the Father, in many Evangelical churches the emphasis is on Jesus Christ and in Pentecostal churches the emphasis is on the Holy Spirit. We need to discern which group a Christian belongs to so we can better understand them and help them come to terms with all three personalities in the God head.
  17. Hi Kevin..........It is always good to talk with you. Actually I think that myself, Jack and you are in agreement. Let me explain that.

    IMO, You don't have to understand the Trinity in order to be saved. I do not know of anyone who has ever said.........
    "I am saved because I believed upon the Trinity".

    NO......we all confess that we were saved because we believed upon the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ; BUT, after that experience and we grow in understanding, if a person, having studied the issue, came to the conclusion that the Trinity could not possibly be true, they would be in the position of a Muslim who says, "God can't have a son." Such a person might admire Jesus but would never look to him for salvation.

    Salvation consists in believing on the Person of Jesus Christ and His work on Calvary's cross – not on ones view of the Trinity. However those who have trusted Christ as Savior should readily accept the doctrine of the Trinity once it is explained to them.

    Now, WHY is that important?
    Because without a correct understanding of what the Bible says about the nature of God other errors can result.
    Consider just for a moment some of the things posted right here on this site. THose that are so off the wall we reject out of hand because they come from an incorrect understanding about the nature of God.
    When a person is wrong on their view of the Trinity there is a good chance they will be wrong about other important beliefs. An incorrect view of the Person of Jesus Christ can lead someone into an improper view of the biblical doctrine of salvation and IMO that is why belief in the Trinity is needed for salvation.
  18. Not gibberish: I can read what was posted. I just didn't know how your comment in blue was applying to.

    In any event, it seems a bit off when you cite it as a "warning to believers" since the fact that the Father has drawn them unto the Son ( John 6:44) and the fact that they are believing is a work wrought by God Himself ( John 3:18-21 & Matthew 11:25-27), hence saved by the grace of God.
    Major likes this.
  19. I can't. If they say that they believe and you keep preaching the Good News to them, you are not going to get anywhere.

    Disciples are called to teach other believers in being His disciples. Five times out of ten is that those that do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity are new believers not grounded in the word or having an errant modern Bible. The other five are grounded in false teachings derived from an errant church they may be attending and so are refusing to see out of loyalty to the church and thinking it is the same as being loyal to God.

    As it is God that ministers and not us beating them over the head with it, we must remember this war below.

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

    It is possible that those unable to see are living in unrepentant sin.
    Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit....7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    So discernment is needed here: not to give out judgment that they are not saved or that they are living in sin, but to correct them by the scripture when the Lord reveals what mind the errant believer is in.

    Philippians 3: 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
  20. Then why did Jesus explain in plain language (by repeating the whole thing) His parable of the soils?

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