sound doctrine

I don't want to quarrel - I am simply trying to sort this out for myself.... Please bear with me on this....

So.. I do believe there will be a rapture... What I am starting to question is who will go and who will stay?

See - in Jesus parables - the Wise virgins are "Snatched away" by the bridegroom.... That was a part of the traditional Jewish wedding.... and they go on to be "The Brides".... Ok, got it.

No where do I see the Servants being snatched away or being removed.....

So, here's what I am trying to sort out.....
We Christians are hardly "Virgins".... We have no covenant separation from the world... in fact - it's the opposite, we are called to be IN the world.... We ALSO came to Christ out of the world "Having known others" - that also kinda seems to break down the idiom of "The Virgin" as well....

What I am seeing is that by and large - our faith falls much closer to the biblical "Servant" idiom....
Servants are generally out IN the world doing the Master's bidding.
Servants ARE expected to be "World wise"
Servants are not typically characterized by Purity and Separation.....
Servants are not characterized by their sex, national origin, position BEFORE their servanthood, or status....
Servants do not receive reward IN the world - they are servants....
Servants are sent to do the master's bidding - even if that results in the servant's death...

So... What happens if there IS a rapture - but we don't get to go because we have a job to do here? Interestingly - in Jesus sayings and parables - the Servants were the only ones who did NOT go to any of the wedding things but DID receive a reward for their faithfulness....

For example - think of Jesus last words to Peter and John in the book of John - John 21:20-23
John 21:21-22 "Peter, seeing him (John) said to Jesus "Lord, and what shall this man do?" Jesus said unto him "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? Be following me."

It's interesting that ONE is commanded to "Be following me" and the other is commanded "Tarry till I come"... Does this mean that John was NOT a servant of Jesus? No.....

Am I going to build any doctrine on this? Nope... and I can tell you - if I am invited to go, I am GOING! But I have been thinking a lot about it lately....

Thanks

Your comment was..........
"So... What happens if there IS a rapture - but we don't get to go because we have a job to do here? Interestingly - in Jesus sayings and parables - the Servants were the only ones who did NOT go to any of the wedding things but DID receive a reward for their faithfulness....".

You are implying that YOU have something to do with your salvation. YOUR job here after God save you is to get out the Word of God so others will hear, and believe the gosple that they also can be saved.

1 Thess. 4:14
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him".

Who gos with Jesus at the Rapture?????

1 Thess. 4:16............
"For the Lord himself shall desend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God; AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST".
 
I don't want to quarrel - I am simply trying to sort this out for myself.... Please bear with me on this....

So.. I do believe there will be a rapture... What I am starting to question is who will go and who will stay?

See - in Jesus parables - the Wise virgins are "Snatched away" by the bridegroom.... That was a part of the traditional Jewish wedding.... and they go on to be "The Brides".... Ok, got it.

No where do I see the Servants being snatched away or being removed.....

So, here's what I am trying to sort out.....
We Christians are hardly "Virgins".... We have no covenant separation from the world... in fact - it's the opposite, we are called to be IN the world.... We ALSO came to Christ out of the world "Having known others" - that also kinda seems to break down the idiom of "The Virgin" as well....

What I am seeing is that by and large - our faith falls much closer to the biblical "Servant" idiom....
Servants are generally out IN the world doing the Master's bidding.
Servants ARE expected to be "World wise"
Servants are not typically characterized by Purity and Separation.....
Servants are not characterized by their sex, national origin, position BEFORE their servanthood, or status....
Servants do not receive reward IN the world - they are servants....
Servants are sent to do the master's bidding - even if that results in the servant's death...

So... What happens if there IS a rapture - but we don't get to go because we have a job to do here? Interestingly - in Jesus sayings and parables - the Servants were the only ones who did NOT go to any of the wedding things but DID receive a reward for their faithfulness....

For example - think of Jesus last words to Peter and John in the book of John - John 21:20-23
John 21:21-22 "Peter, seeing him (John) said to Jesus "Lord, and what shall this man do?" Jesus said unto him "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? Be following me."

It's interesting that ONE is commanded to "Be following me" and the other is commanded "Tarry till I come"... Does this mean that John was NOT a servant of Jesus? No.....

Am I going to build any doctrine on this? Nope... and I can tell you - if I am invited to go, I am GOING! But I have been thinking a lot about it lately....

Thanks
Correct, the rapture is not a right, but a gift for faithfulness.

Luke 21:36 (KJV)
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
 
You are implying that YOU have something to do with your salvation. YOUR job here after God save you is to get out the Word of God so others will hear, and believe the gosple that they also can be saved.

Earning Salvation - Nope, absolutely not. This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with that....

But, are you saying that you are NOT a Bondservant of Christ?
 
I've come across another rapture in the scriptures, this one is for the Jews:

Isaiah 27:13 (KJV)
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.​

Looking into this I found that the "holy mount" isn't Mt. Zion, or Mt. Moria, but the Mt. of Olives! Today the Jews pay huge amounts of money to be buried in the Mt. of Olives so they will be with the Messiah when He comes [again].

It's where Jesus left this earth, it's where the glory left the Temple in 66 AD (on Pentecost no less!) to resided for 3.5 years before leaving in 70 AD, and it's where Jesus will come again.
 
Correct, the rapture is not a right, but a gift for faithfulness.

Luke 21:36 (KJV)
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That's not my question.... I don't dispute the rapture, or that it's a gift for faithfulness.....

What I noticed is that in Jesus parables the "Virgins" ARE snatched away by the bridegroom.. The one group conspicuously absent from "The Wedding" is the servants.... but the "Servants" are specifically charged to continue to do the work of The Master in his absence and receive their reward for doing so.. and they frequently get killed by the wicked in the process.... This is what has me thinking about this....
 
Earning Salvation - Nope, absolutely not. This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with that....

But, are you saying that you are NOT a Bondservant of Christ?

No John I am not saying that at all.

YOU said............"So... What happens if there IS a rapture - but we don't get to go because we have a job to do here?"

It seemed to me that you were implying that we must DO SOMETHING in order to be a saved person so that we can be included in the Rapture.

To which I responded to in comment #63. We will be included in the Rapture because we are born again believers. If that designation is one which you want to be called a bond servant, fine with me. All I am saying is that the Scriptures say................ "The dead in Christ will be raised first, THEN THOSE WHO REMAIN will be caught up to meet the Lord".

I am unable to fid any kind of job or service in the Scriptures that make us acceptable to be included outside of being born again.

That is all I was saying.
 
I've come across another rapture in the scriptures, this one is for the Jews:

Isaiah 27:13 (KJV)
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.​

Looking into this I found that the "holy mount" isn't Mt. Zion, or Mt. Moria, but the Mt. of Olives! Today the Jews pay huge amounts of money to be buried in the Mt. of Olives so they will be with the Messiah when He comes [again].

It's where Jesus left this earth, it's where the glory left the Temple in 66 AD (on Pentecost no less!) to resided for 3.5 years before leaving in 70 AD, and it's where Jesus will come again.

Isn't it also the "threshing floor" described in Ruth and also the place where Abraham was about to kill Isaac???
 
I've come across another rapture in the scriptures, this one is for the Jews:

Isaiah 27:13 (KJV)
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.​

Looking into this I found that the "holy mount" isn't Mt. Zion, or Mt. Moria, but the Mt. of Olives! Today the Jews pay huge amounts of money to be buried in the Mt. of Olives so they will be with the Messiah when He comes [again].

It's where Jesus left this earth, it's where the glory left the Temple in 66 AD (on Pentecost no less!) to resided for 3.5 years before leaving in 70 AD, and it's where Jesus will come again.

What thinketh thou of Daniel 12:2:.......
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
 
What thinketh thou of Daniel 12:2:.......
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
The same as this:

Revelation 20:13 (KJV)
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Final judgement.

Isaiah 27:13 are the saints of old, like:

Job 19:26-27 (KJV)
And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.
 
Major said :
What thinketh thou of Daniel 12:2:.......
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

You know me major, I like to dig around a verse and not just take it in isolation.
What I am seeing:::
Dan 11:44 But news from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction.
Dan 11:45 And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him.
Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

It seems to me that at the time of the routing of the king of the North, (12:1) Michael will stand in defense or protection of the saints and that in those same times will be the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus.
Then I'm seeing that in verse 2 that you posted, there is a resurrection mentioned, probably a 2 part resurrection as outlined in more detail in Rev 20.
What I'm seeing in addition in verse 2 is the implication that these resurrections are not the only two because the word is 'many of those who sleep...'this implies most but not all who sleep.... but that idea has no additional support in scripture as far as I can recall, so it is likely wrong.
Looking at v3, I am seeing that at the time/s spoken of here the saints will still be active in evangelism, turning many to righteousness. Is this before/during/after the time of trouble? Is this before after the resurrection of V2?
In any event, it must take place before the saints are caught up in the resurrection events of v2. (1Thess 4:16)
To my mind, the wording and the flow is not clear enough for any certainty.
I'm thinking that there is no strict chronological order in these verses, that many things are lumped in together.
If that is the case, then with the routing of the king of the north, there shall be great tribulation, maybe the starting of that is what alarms him (11:44). The deliverance of the saints (v1) should follow the resurrection in v2, which in turn should chronologically follow v3. Unless the deliverance of the saints is merely a preservation of life during the time and events of the tribulation perhaps.
These verses were not meant to be understood in isolation I'm thinking, but depend heavily on future teachings.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
It would be most convenient to slot the 144K into Dan 12:3, however I don't think that is likely a valid thing.
 
Last edited:
We are not here for God's Wrath....

The end is not just about the Church escaping wrath though.
It’s not about us “escaping” anything. God’s wrath is reserved for the children of disobedience (i.e. the unbelievers).

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph. 2:2, 3).

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. (Eph. 5:6).

For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience (Col. 3:6).

Luke 21:36 (KJV)
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
...escape...

The word escape in Greek is ekpheugō. It is found seven times in the New Testament - five times as escape and two times as flee.

The definition of ekpheugō is:

1) to flee out of; to flee away
a) to seek safety in flight
a) to escape

Obviously, this word has nothing to do with a "rapture."

BTW,

...I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation... (Rev. 3:10).

The word keep in Greek is tēreō. It is found 75 times in the New Testament - keep 57 times, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, and hold fast 1.

The definition of tēreō is:

1) to attend to carefully, take care of
a) to guard
b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
c) to observe
d) to reserve: to undergo something

Obviously, this word has nothing to do with a "rapture."

Jesus has already said that His followers would have tribulation...He never said we would suffer wrath.
Amen.

...[you] find a scripture that says that this seven years of tribulation are in fact wrathful judgment, or that this (whatever it is),follows the removal of the Church.
Tribulation is tribulation, doesn't matter if it is man made or God appointed.
Amen.

We (Church of believers) would have seen the 7 year peace treaty, the invasion of Russia into Israel, the A/C declaring himself to be God. We would KNOW what is going on and would be yelling from the roof tops.
This is dogma. Take one portion of these claims at a time, and show us, with scripture -- no excuses.

While it is true that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture position cannot be "proven"; however, it is implied...and is supported by many scriptures.
Then it should be an easy task for you to post those “many scriptures” -- with everything in order, one point at a time -- For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little (Isa. 28:10).

It seems to me that the following passage of Scripture proves the Pretribulation return of Christ...
Matthew 24:42-44.......
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
I am consistently surprised at how many believers continue to view the various 'Thief In The Night' passages in the Scriptures as being descriptive of a pretribulation rapture. Through widespread usage, the evocative phrase has evolved into a somewhat universal description of the much touted hypothetical secret coming of Christ to evacuate believers before the tribulation begins.

Christian books, multitudes of prophecy tapes, dramatic video productions, and a host of other media have been utilizing the theme for many years. For example, a feature film entitled Thief In The Night has been extensively screened (on film & video) to Christian audiences throughout North America -- even as the word thief has found its way into the titles of numerous rapture-oriented prophecy books and magazine articles. Clearly, a large portion of the church believes the various thief verses in the Bible provide Scriptural support for the fictitious doctrine of the pre-trib rapture.

The fact is, the verses in the New Testament that reference Christ's coming as a thief, without exception, refer to his second coming -- at the very end of the tribulation.

The word thief actually appears 27 times in the entire Bible. It's found 12 times in the Old Testament, and 15 times in the New Testament. None of the OT references are germane to the study as they typically describe the sanctions and prohibitions against theft; e.g. Thou Shalt Not Steal. (Ex 20:15).

In the New Testament, all 15 occurrences of the word thief are relevant, so they are representative of the intent and meaning inherent in the phrase 'come like a thief,' or 'thief in the night.' At the Olivet mountain, Jesus taught that "... if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." (Mat 24:43). In this account, which is echoed in Luke, we see the concept of watching for the unexpected arrival of the thief.

However, what most rapturists miss here is the obvious fact that the thief is spoken of in a negative context for his actions are hardly desirable as his activity is textually limited to the 'breaking up' of the goodman's house -- hardly descriptive of someone coming on a mission of rescue and evacuation. It's also important to remember that this particular reference about the thief COMING TO DESTROY appears in the very chapter wherein Christ is articulating the events surrounding his return -- Matthew 24.

In the next occurrence of the word thief, we see Jesus responding to his betrayal and subsequent arrest by the Jewish and Roman authorities. As Judas led the armed guards to his former master, Christ asked "Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me." (Mat 26:55). Here the text illustrates that thieves were considered to be dangerous enough that their arrest warranted 'swords and staves.'

In the book of John, Jesus further elaborates on the characteristics of a "... thief (who) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy...." (John 10:10). It is apparent from this passage that the term thief connotes someone that does far more than simply steal. The thief also comes to destroy. Indeed, when one remembers the two thieves that were ultimately crucified next to Christ, it's not difficult to see that the title was applied to persons that came to perpetrate an act of violence or pure destruction, for Roman society considered thieves a sufficient threat that they crucified them.

Moving on to the epistles, while the rapture crowd chooses to characterize the allusion to a thief as an indication of the imminency of the so-called rapture, the Apostle Peter chooses to describe the coming of the thief in the night as incredibly destructive, highly visual, and even very noisy:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with a fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Pet 2:10).

This vivid description doesn't sound at all like what one might expect from a 'secret coming' that suddenly and discriminately snatches up the faithful believer, and leaves everyone else in the clutches of the Antichrist. After all, if the earth is "burned up" and the heavens pass away with a 'big bang' WHEN this "thief" comes, how could there then be 7 years left for the tribulation?

In addition to these citations from Matthew, Luke, John, and Peter, the Apostle Paul also taught that the coming of the thief in the night would be accompanied by a tremendous and final destruction. In a favorite passage frequently cited by the group I've come to refer to as The Rapture Cult, Paul writes that "... the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thes 5:2, 3). Once again, the arrival of the thief in the night coincides with "sudden destruction."

When both Peter and Paul describe the arrival of the thief in the night as an event of tremendous destruction, they both state that true believers will not be caught unawares for they will be watching for the return of The Lord.

Paul actually uses the word thief again in the very next verse following his first reference to the thief in the night. He writes that the true believer is "... not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." (1 Thes 5:4).

This verse succinctly states that believers WILL be on the earth when "the day" arrives, but they'll be prepared for that day for they've been WATCHING and anticipating the Lord's arrival. This is precisely what Christ instructed the errant church in Sardis to do in order to renew their right standing with him: Repent and WATCH.

The allusion to Christ's return as a thief actually occurs twice in Revelation. In fact, the similarity between The Thief of Sardis in Revelation 3 and the thief mentioned in Revelation 16 is striking. Both verses are the actual words of Jesus. Both verses refer to Christ coming as a thief. Both verses admonish believers to watch. Both verses state that believers are to keep their garments from being "defiled."

Obviously, both verses merit a close look.

When The Thief of Sardis (Jesus) states that those who do not repent and watch "will... not know what hour (he) will come upon thee" (Rev 3:3), he states that his coming will then be "as a thief." (Rev 3:3). Much later, in Revelation 16:15, Jesus says "Behold, I come as a thief... Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

At this point, all 7 seal judgment have occurred. All 7 trumpet judgment have gone by. And at least 6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Indeed, the very next verse says "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Rev 16:16). It is at the battle of Armageddon that Christ returns to the earth -- after the tribulation has fully run its course (Rev 19:19). Yet immediately preceding this battle, AFTER the seal, trumpet, and vial Judgments, Christ says in the FUTURE tense, "Behold, I come as a thief." (Rev 3:3).

Furthermore, there is no doubt this is the same coming of the thief that is referred to in Revelation 3 -- the words spoken to the church of Sardis, for both references include specific details such as not defiling one's garments, watching, and the actual reference to Christ's return as being like that of a thief. In short, this is precise and irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation.

Looking into this I found that the "holy mount" isn't Mt. Zion, or Mt. Moria, but the Mt. of Olives! Today the Jews pay huge amounts of money to be buried in the Mt. of Olives so they will be with the Messiah when He comes [again].

It's where Jesus left this earth, it's where the glory left the Temple in 66 AD (on Pentecost no less!) to resided for 3.5 years before leaving in 70 AD, and it's where Jesus will come again.
”caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord” -- meet, greet and return to base (mount of olives) with him.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection

All I am saying is that the Scriptures say................ "The dead in Christ will be raised first, THEN THOSE WHO REMAIN [i.e. those still alive] will be caught up to meet the Lord".

I am unable to fid any kind of job or service in the Scriptures that make us acceptable to be included outside of being born again.

That is all I was saying.
There are two resurrections: one for believers and one for unbelievers. Guess which one your quote describes.

What thinketh thou of Daniel 12:2:.......
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)
 
Last edited:
Major, just an amplification of my comment above about the 144k.
Some seem to think that these are 144k Jewish evangelists who will have their ministry during the seven years of Tribulation, bringing many Jews to salvation. However,
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
Rev 14:3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
A few things I am noticing here:
144,000 is representative of a perfect and complete number, signifying that the salvation work of Christ is complete.
In verse 4, I am noticing that the idea of purity runs somewhat contrary to the Lord's purposes for His people.
It seems that a hasty allocation of the 144K as virgins and undefiled through relations with women, even wives is contrary to God's expressed purpose.
I believe what is meant is that these are saints, resurrected, cleansed of all unrighteousness by the blood of Christ and sporting incorruptible bodies.
I am seeing this is further supported by the last sentence in verse 4."These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb" Their redemption is complete, (past tense) and they are first fruits. see also, ,
2Th 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Here in 2 Th the salvation is a future event while in Rev 14:4 it is a done deal already, and note that these 144K are firstfruits just as are those spoken of in 2 Thes.
So to recap, I am seeing that it would be a grave error to try to place the 144000 into any earthly ministry or service.
 
It’s not about us “escaping” anything. God’s wrath is reserved for the children of disobedience (i.e. the unbelievers).

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph. 2:2, 3).

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. (Eph. 5:6).

For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience (Col. 3:6).

...escape...

The word escape in Greek is ekpheugō. It is found seven times in the New Testament - five times as escape and two times as flee.

The definition of ekpheugō is:

1) to flee out of; to flee away
a) to seek safety in flight
a) to escape

Obviously, this word has nothing to do with a "rapture."

BTW,

...I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation... (Rev. 3:10).

The word keep in Greek is tēreō. It is found 75 times in the New Testament - keep 57 times, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, and hold fast 1.

The definition of tēreō is:

1) to attend to carefully, take care of
a) to guard
b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
c) to observe
d) to reserve: to undergo something

Obviously, this word has nothing to do with a "rapture."

Amen.

Amen.

This is dogma. Take one portion of these claims at a time, and show us, with scripture -- no excuses.

Then it should be an easy task for you to post those “many scriptures” -- with everything in order, one point at a time -- For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little (Isa. 28:10).

I am consistently surprised at how many believers continue to view the various 'Thief In The Night' passages in the Scriptures as being descriptive of a pretribulation rapture. Through widespread usage, the evocative phrase has evolved into a somewhat universal description of the much touted hypothetical secret coming of Christ to evacuate believers before the tribulation begins.

Christian books, multitudes of prophecy tapes, dramatic video productions, and a host of other media have been utilizing the theme for many years. For example, a feature film entitled Thief In The Night has been extensively screened (on film & video) to Christian audiences throughout North America -- even as the word thief has found its way into the titles of numerous rapture-oriented prophecy books and magazine articles. Clearly, a large portion of the church believes the various thief verses in the Bible provide Scriptural support for the fictitious doctrine of the pre-trib rapture.

The fact is, the verses in the New Testament that reference Christ's coming as a thief, without exception, refer to his second coming -- at the very end of the tribulation.

The word thief actually appears 27 times in the entire Bible. It's found 12 times in the Old Testament, and 15 times in the New Testament. None of the OT references are germane to the study as they typically describe the sanctions and prohibitions against theft; e.g. Thou Shalt Not Steal. (Ex 20:15).

In the New Testament, all 15 occurrences of the word thief are relevant, so they are representative of the intent and meaning inherent in the phrase 'come like a thief,' or 'thief in the night.' At the Olivet mountain, Jesus taught that "... if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." (Mat 24:43). In this account, which is echoed in Luke, we see the concept of watching for the unexpected arrival of the thief.

However, what most rapturists miss here is the obvious fact that the thief is spoken of in a negative context for his actions are hardly desirable as his activity is textually limited to the 'breaking up' of the goodman's house -- hardly descriptive of someone coming on a mission of rescue and evacuation. It's also important to remember that this particular reference about the thief COMING TO DESTROY appears in the very chapter wherein Christ is articulating the events surrounding his return -- Matthew 24.

In the next occurrence of the word thief, we see Jesus responding to his betrayal and subsequent arrest by the Jewish and Roman authorities. As Judas led the armed guards to his former master, Christ asked "Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me." (Mat 26:55). Here the text illustrates that thieves were considered to be dangerous enough that their arrest warranted 'swords and staves.'

In the book of John, Jesus further elaborates on the characteristics of a "... thief (who) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy...." (John 10:10). It is apparent from this passage that the term thief connotes someone that does far more than simply steal. The thief also comes to destroy. Indeed, when one remembers the two thieves that were ultimately crucified next to Christ, it's not difficult to see that the title was applied to persons that came to perpetrate an act of violence or pure destruction, for Roman society considered thieves a sufficient threat that they crucified them.

Moving on to the epistles, while the rapture crowd chooses to characterize the allusion to a thief as an indication of the imminency of the so-called rapture, the Apostle Peter chooses to describe the coming of the thief in the night as incredibly destructive, highly visual, and even very noisy:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with a fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Pet 2:10).

This vivid description doesn't sound at all like what one might expect from a 'secret coming' that suddenly and discriminately snatches up the faithful believer, and leaves everyone else in the clutches of the Antichrist. After all, if the earth is "burned up" and the heavens pass away with a 'big bang' WHEN this "thief" comes, how could there then be 7 years left for the tribulation?

In addition to these citations from Matthew, Luke, John, and Peter, the Apostle Paul also taught that the coming of the thief in the night would be accompanied by a tremendous and final destruction. In a favorite passage frequently cited by the group I've come to refer to as The Rapture Cult, Paul writes that "... the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thes 5:2, 3). Once again, the arrival of the thief in the night coincides with "sudden destruction."

When both Peter and Paul describe the arrival of the thief in the night as an event of tremendous destruction, they both state that true believers will not be caught unawares for they will be watching for the return of The Lord.

Paul actually uses the word thief again in the very next verse following his first reference to the thief in the night. He writes that the true believer is "... not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." (1 Thes 5:4).

This verse succinctly states that believers WILL be on the earth when "the day" arrives, but they'll be prepared for that day for they've been WATCHING and anticipating the Lord's arrival. This is precisely what Christ instructed the errant church in Sardis to do in order to renew their right standing with him: Repent and WATCH.

The allusion to Christ's return as a thief actually occurs twice in Revelation. In fact, the similarity between The Thief of Sardis in Revelation 3 and the thief mentioned in Revelation 16 is striking. Both verses are the actual words of Jesus. Both verses refer to Christ coming as a thief. Both verses admonish believers to watch. Both verses state that believers are to keep their garments from being "defiled."

Obviously, both verses merit a close look.

When The Thief of Sardis (Jesus) states that those who do not repent and watch "will... not know what hour (he) will come upon thee" (Rev 3:3), he states that his coming will then be "as a thief." (Rev 3:3). Much later, in Revelation 16:15, Jesus says "Behold, I come as a thief... Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

At this point, all 7 seal judgment have occurred. All 7 trumpet judgment have gone by. And at least 6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Indeed, the very next verse says "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Rev 16:16). It is at the battle of Armageddon that Christ returns to the earth -- after the tribulation has fully run its course (Rev 19:19). Yet immediately preceding this battle, AFTER the seal, trumpet, and vial Judgments, Christ says in the FUTURE tense, "Behold, I come as a thief." (Rev 3:3).

Furthermore, there is no doubt this is the same coming of the thief that is referred to in Revelation 3 -- the words spoken to the church of Sardis, for both references include specific details such as not defiling one's garments, watching, and the actual reference to Christ's return as being like that of a thief. In short, this is precise and irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation.

”caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord” -- meet, greet and return to base (mount of olives) with him.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection

There are two resurrections: one for believers and one for unbelievers. Guess which one your quote describes.



If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)

Do you think that such a volume of words is going to overpower those who do not agree with you???
 
Do you think that such a volume of words is going to overpower those who do not agree with you???
Your non sequitur is noted. Regardless of which "volume of words" you choose not to test; the consequences of your failure to perform due diligence remain yours.

As someone recently posted elsewhere: "Ignorance is a poor excuse for a stance on anything.:"
 
Major said :

You know me major, I like to dig around a verse and not just take it in isolation.
What I am seeing:::
Dan 11:44 But news from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction.
Dan 11:45 And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him.
Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

It seems to me that at the time of the routing of the king of the North, (12:1) Michael will stand in defense or protection of the saints and that in those same times will be the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus.
Then I'm seeing that in verse 2 that you posted, there is a resurrection mentioned, probably a 2 part resurrection as outlined in more detail in Rev 20.
What I'm seeing in addition in verse 2 is the implication that these resurrections are not the only two because the word is 'many of those who sleep...'this implies most but not all who sleep.... but that idea has no additional support in scripture as far as I can recall, so it is likely wrong.
Looking at v3, I am seeing that at the time/s spoken of here the saints will still be active in evangelism, turning many to righteousness. Is this before/during/after the time of trouble? Is this before after the resurrection of V2?
In any event, it must take place before the saints are caught up in the resurrection events of v2. (1Thess 4:16)
To my mind, the wording and the flow is not clear enough for any certainty.
I'm thinking that there is no strict chronological order in these verses, that many things are lumped in together.
If that is the case, then with the routing of the king of the north, there shall be great tribulation, maybe the starting of that is what alarms him (11:44). The deliverance of the saints (v1) should follow the resurrection in v2, which in turn should chronologically follow v3. Unless the deliverance of the saints is merely a preservation of life during the time and events of the tribulation perhaps.
These verses were not meant to be understood in isolation I'm thinking, but depend heavily on future teachings.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
It would be most convenient to slot the 144K into Dan 12:3, however I don't think that is likely a valid thing.

Excellant thinking my friend.

It seems to me that the entire army of the beast will move into the Holy Land in Daniel 11:41.......
"He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown; but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon."

It is at that point the A/C is alatmed because of news from the east in Daniel 11:44..........
"But news from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction."

IMO that means a great army will come from the east to the battle of Armageddon.

Rev. 16:12........
"The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east."

Then we come to Daniel 12:1.......
"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book."

"At that time" takes us back to Daniel 11:35-45 and the latter days.

Then we come to Daniel 12:2............
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Here I think is where the confusion comes from on the Rapture. Here IMO is the key to understanding all of this.

When the Bride of Christ, the Church is raptured out of the world, the Old Testament saints will not be raised. WHY??????
Because the time to enter the Kingdom is at the END of the Great Tribulation when Christ comes to established His kingdom on the earth. It is then that the Old Test. saints will be resurrected as seen in Daniel 12:2. Abraham and Isaac and Isaiah and so on will be raised to enter the Kingdom on this earth at that time.

Rev. 20:11-15.........
"Some to shame and everlasting contempt" in Daniel 12:2 refers to the lost of the Old Test. who are raised at the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the 1000 years.

What I am saying is that there will be IMO a National Resurrection of the nation of Israel. They are today nqaoday now nationally dead buried in the graveyard of the nations of the earth. But they will be revived, raised and restored.

Jere. 16:14-15.............
"Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when it shall no longer be said, 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,' 15 but 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had driven them.' For I will bring them back to their own land that I gave to their fathers."

Paul tells us that all Israel will be saved in Romans 11:26........
"And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob".

Ezekiel 37:12. 21-22 confirms this fact........
"Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.............
(21-22)........ then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. "

Now that does not mean that God will bring every single Israelite out of graves dug in the ground because these were not literal graves. God is speaking here of the graves of nations where the Jews have been scattered. This is about the nations where the twelve tribes have been scattered and buried AS A NATION.

Lets confirm that by reading Ezekiel 37:13-14............
"And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. 14 And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD."
 
It’s not about us “escaping” anything. God’s wrath is reserved for the children of disobedience (i.e. the unbelievers).

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph. 2:2, 3).

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. (Eph. 5:6).

For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience (Col. 3:6).

You make a good point, but I think we perhaps mis-apply the of "Children of Disobedience" to "Unbelievers"...

Disobedience infers that clear direction WAS given and understood, and then intentionally rejected that direction and chose to do otherwise....

This is very different from lack of knowledge - which is how I would classify your garden variety "Unbeliever".... They generally neither know nor CARE to know anything about God's will.... They desire separation from our God - and He grants this.... It struck me going through the Prophets that God doesn't spend an awful lot of time or scripture on unbelievers who have no contact with God's Servants - it's simply "You were arrogant. Fire!"

Rather, if you look at the pattern of God's judgements - they typically come to those WHO KNOW and choose to ignore or disobey.... By and large - the Apostate church.... The church who takes The Name of The Lord on themselves and then attributes the Chaos, Emptiness, and Trouble that they cause to God.... The ones who Covenant with The World to achieve prominence and success... Etc...

Thanks
 
Your non sequitur is noted. Regardless of which "volume of words" you choose not to test; the consequences of your failure to perform due diligence remain yours.

As someone recently posted elsewhere: "Ignorance is a poor excuse for a stance on anything.:"

Yes, I agree with you.

George Bernard Shaw once said..............
"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance"!
 
Your non sequitur is noted. Regardless of which "volume of words" you choose not to test; the consequences of your failure to perform due diligence remain yours.

As someone recently posted elsewhere: "Ignorance is a poor excuse for a stance on anything.:"

You know my brother, I have felt for a long time now, which has become more and more apparent the older I grow, that the people such as yourself who believe that the Bride of Christ will go through the Tribulation and reject the Rapture, feel that we need to go through trouble. They IMO believe that the church needs to go throught the Tribulation.

Well the truth is that I DO deserve it and I actually deserve hell just as does you and everyone else. BUT I am not going to go through the Tribulation and I am not going to go to hell because Christ bore those things for me and you.I have trusted Him and accepted Him and I am one of His children and because of that He saves me by His grace.

Titus 2:13 tells me.................
"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ".
 
It seemed to me that you were implying that we must DO SOMETHING in order to be a saved person so that we can be included in the Rapture.

I am unable to fid any kind of job or service in the Scriptures that make us acceptable to be included outside of being born again.

That is all I was saying.

I have decided that there is a differentiation between "Salvation" - which is absolutely free through Unmerited Gift (Grace) alone and we cannot do anything to "Earn" one bit of it and so many of the "Inheritances" that can be earned, taken up, or lost..... Revelation 2 and 3 detail MANY of these with the promises made to each of the churches..... Paul, Peter, and James also go into this quite a bit.

For example - Revelation 3:11 to the Church of Philadelphia: "Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown." This implies that there was a way that YOU could fail to take this crown - an inheritance above and beyond salvation....

And on the same subject of crowns... James 1:12 - "Blessed in the man who endures temptation (trials), for when he has been approved, he will receive the Crown of Life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

2nd Timothy 2:12 implies the same...

Note that these crowns mentioned have contingencies attached to them.... Enduring persecution/trials/temptation/suffering.... where Salvation does not.

Another one...
Revelation 3:12 - "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God...." - So, this is something special available ONLY to those who are overcoming.... Does this imply that the one who is NOT overcoming will NOT receive Salvation and eternal life? Absolutely not - salvation is ONLY contingent upon Faith.

What I have been thinking about is whether "The Rapture" also classifies as one of these special things only available to a certain group - "The Wise Virgins" - the ones who have maintained covenant separation, purity, and have met all the required "Preparations" and "Specifications" set forth for such in the Scripture...

Like I said - I am in no means ready to make any doctrine out of it... but it's something to think about....

Thanks
 
Back
Top