sound doctrine

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Lanolin, Jan 15, 2015.

  1. I agree on both comments.

    It is clear that many will be saved and go through the Tribulation because we see in Rev. 20 the war of Gog & Magog.
  2. Not so my sister.

    The New Jerusalem, which is also called the Tabernacle of God, the Holy City, the City of God, the Celestial City, the Pearly White City, the City Foursquare, and Heavenly Jerusalem, is literally heaven on earth and we will not be guests but instead we will call that city our HOME.

    It is what Jesus promised in John 14:3.......
    "If I go to prepare a PLACE for you, surely I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye shall be also".
    Euphemia likes this.
  3. I have to disagree about the Bride Larry. It is clear to me that the Bride of Christ is in fact the Church.

    Larry, don't you think that Rev. 7:15 which you posted is about the scene on the earth and not heaven? Where are these redeemed standing?

    According to Rev. 21:25 and vs. 22 there is NO night in the Temple in heaven so it does not seem possible that they would be in heaven. Couldn't this then be the Millennium?

    Isaiah 66:19-21 tells us that there will be a temple in the Millennium and also Isaiah 4:5-6 speaks of a tabernacle as well.
    Something to think about.
  4. I think it would be helpful if we noticed that this group you are referring to is NOT known to John. If you read the verse 13 it is clear that John is asking a question as to who they are. He knows the church group but he does do know this group who are saved out of the Tribulation. It seems to me that they are the saved Gentiles who as live humans will enter the Millennium.

    Vs. 13.........."and one of the elders answered saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes and whence came they????"

    Vs 14......"And I said unto him, Sir thou knowest." They came out of the Great Tribulation.

    It is not that the elder does not know because is going to give an answer in a moment. Rather, the elder is wanting John to consider this question. Who are this people? John reveals that he does not know but that the elder does.

    That means that they can not be a part of the Church.
    Euphemia likes this.
  5. Well of course, like I am an Aucklander, I suppose, cos I live there, but I am not the city itself.
  6. I am a citizen though.
    I guess the language is symbolic cos we also 'living stones'
  7. Um..thought Jesus preparing the mansions for us from his .fathers house. Whilst the holy spirit is preparing us spiritually within, cos we his temples.

    Jesus was a carpenter you know. He knows all about mansions.

    I mean, look at David and Solomon, both built an earthly temple for God to dwell in.
    But Jesus, our true king, is building up people, as they are, to enter something God alone is building. Hes got all the resources!! Hes actually coming HIMSELF to dwell with us. For permanent. We can only enter by Jesus name.
  8. Major - I have to disagree about the Bride Larry. It is clear to me that the Bride of Christ is in fact the Church.
    Larry2 - That’s alright brother. To me by the testimony of Rev 4:1, everything following that initial Day of the Lord, or the Lord’s Day is future from that time.
    Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    Chapter seven of Revelation is exactly where the Great Multitude is on earth in the temptation that will come upon all the world (First 3 ½ yrs of tribulation), that the bride of Christ was spared of according to Rev 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    (The bride is round about (Rev 4.4), and in the midst of the throne(Rev 4:6) when Jesus takes the “All power and authority He was given in Mat 28:18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. It is evident that Jesus has not taken those reins of power at this present time.

    Major - Larry, don't you think that Rev 7:15 which you posted is about the scene on the earth and not heaven? Where are these redeemed standing?
    Larry2 - Where does John see the Great multitude? Remember Rev 4:1 where we see John caught up into heaven (Come up hither). Next, where do we see the Multitude as to the proximity of God?
    Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Major - According to Rev 21:25 and vs. 22 there is NO night in the Temple in heaven so it does not seem possible that they would be in heaven. Couldn't this then be the Millennium?
    larry2 - I believe their place before God in heaven beginning with being caught up to God out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14) will extend throughout the millennium until we see the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Major - Isaiah 66:19-21 tells us that there will be a temple in the Millennium and also Isaiah 4:5-6 speaks of a tabernacle as well.
    Larry2 - There is so much I don’t know the full implication of, but the following scripture in that same chapter shows God dealing with Israel in the Day of the Lord. Notice the “Man Child” of Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    Isa 66:6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. I will get into this sometime future, but this “Man Child; a nation brought forth in a day is none other than the 144,000 of Rev 14:1.
    Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. These are those sealed in Rev 7:1-6.

    I’ll leave off for the moment and see this flies. :)
    Blessings brother in Christ Jesus.
  9. larry2, are you a proponent of the Man Child doctrine???
  10. That was going to be my question as well. I f you will take yours back I can ask mine! :)
  11. I'm not certain of what you're asking dear sister. I know there is a doctrine that Jesus is the "Man Child" spoken of in Rev 12:5, but it doesn't fit the time frame of being the "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" of Rev 4:1. Previous to these scriptures of Rev 12:5 John was shown the things which he had seen, and the things which are presently occurring in this age of Rev 1:19.

    From Rev 4:1 forward from the inception of the Lord's Day where John was caught forward in Spirit, he is now describing those things that are of a future viewpoint. I've heard it debated that Rev 12:5 is just a parenthesis of the birth of Christ which I don't believe. Thanks for your reply.
  12. Well, Revelation 12 is a synopsis of the huge opposition against Israel producing the Anointed One by Satan, and how He did come, die and ascended to the Father and His throne. It's pretty simple.
    Major likes this.
  13. As Euphima asked, are you a proponent of the Man Child doctrine that came out of the Latter Rain movement?

    Rev. 4:1 appears to me Larry to be the Rapture. If that it the case then it would answer why John did not know the group of people in Rev. 7:15. He knew the Church group but not those that came after Re. 4:1.

    As for Rev. 3:10, many people believe that this verse is again a promise about the Rapture and God removing His Bride the Church before the Tribulation begins. I would also be one of those who would agree with that teaching.

    Rev. 7:9 refers to "Gentiles" who are saved after the Rapture. Rev. 7:1-8 tells us that many JEWS will come to Christ during the Tribulation and now in verse #9 we see a "multitude from ALL nations, and kindreds and people and tongues".

    As for Rev 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

    I am sure you noticed that the Scripture does not say the city IS the Bride but in fact say "Prepared AS A bride adorned for her husband".

    Larry, I believe the Scriptures relate to us that the Bride of Christ is His church. This is not an "essential" of the faith but I do think that it is the case. In Ephesians 5:15-32 which is way to long to post here, we see a relationship between husbands and wives laid out:
    Husband head of wife (Christ head of church and savior of the body) [The church is called the body of Christ]
    Wives subject to husbands (Church subject to Christ)
    Husbands love wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it
    Husbands love wives as their own bodies (Christ nourishes and cherishes the church)
    Man leaves mother/father and is joined unto his wife (two are then one flesh)
    We are the body of Christ and He is the head, but we are one in Him and He in us -- John 17:18-26-- 1 John 4:12-13-- 1 John 3:24.
    These same things are what happens in a marriage!!!

    IMO this is our marriage where we as the Church of believers become one with Christ. There is also a kingdom of heaven parable that is very similar to ancient Jewish wedding custom.

    Then a good look at Jewish wedding tradition and how it relates to our relationship with the Lord Jesus and prophecy can be found in many books and the internet and a book I would recommend is book Lost In Translation: "Rediscovering the Hebrew Roots of Our Faith".

    Also, if John is viewing all of the bride and the bride resides in New Jerusalem, then seeing the bride, the Lamb’s wife as a whole would be to view them through the crystal clear New Jerusalem adorned as a bride for her husband. That being the case it would seem to be that it would be impossible to tell one from the other.

    Then as for the "Man Child" of Rev. 12:1 being the 144,000----I must disagree with you.

    Rev. 12:1 tells us about a WOMAN. That woman is the nation of Israel my friend. To prove that all you need to do is go to Genesis 37:9-10 and read how Israel is revealed to Joseph. It is exactly like the identification in Rev. 12:1. Anything other than that is simply out of the question and I am sorry if that sounds harsh, it is just that it can not be anything else.

    The MAN CHILD that comes from Israel is of course the Lord Jesus Christ. That is also confirmed in Romans 9:4-5 where we see these words........."Who are Israelites of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came. Jesus is the Messiah and God's Christ.

    The 144,000 are clearly Jewish, virgin men who come to Christ after the Rapture and IMO through the preaching of the TWO witness in Jerusalem from the rebuilt temple.
    Euphemia likes this.
  14. Agreed sister. It is also referred to as a "parenthetical" chapter of the Revelation.
  15. Not even close in my opinion. It doesn't fit the things which John had seen, or the things which are; it is indeed future beginning with the second half of the tribulation.

    We don't read of Jesus being caught up to God at his birth, nor of Satan attempting to destroy Him as soon as He was born. Even Satan's seemingly puppet Herod had no idea Jesus was coming.
    Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. This is not the Satan we read of described in Rev 12:13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Do we read of the persecution of Mary anywhere?
    Thanks. :)
  16. Larry if you will read Psalms 2:9 you will find that it speaks of Rev. 12:5 and it is about Christ and His 1000 year rule after His 2nd Coming.

    Consider Psalms 2:2.....
    "The kings of the earth have set themselves together, and the rulers have consulted together, against Jehovah, and against his anointed".

    Then verse 8............
    "Ask of me, and I will give the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession."

    Then verse 9...........
    "You shall bruise them with a rod of iron, as a potter's vessel shall you break them in pieces."
  17. #497 Euphemia, May 7, 2015
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
    I believe that the first part at least of Revelation 12 is a look back into history. It doesn't relate that Jesus was caught up at birth. It is a compressed look at Jesus coming and going. Satan did try to prevent His coming, and with the massacre of all 2 year old male children after His birth as an attempt to wipe Him out, it follows completely with Satan's agenda. Herod knew He had arrived.
    Major likes this.
  18. Would you consider that the 144,000 are also the five wise virgins? Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

    Though all in Christ are God's people, and just as Abraham sent Eliezer to find a bride in
    Gen 24:4 But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac. Do you think all of Abraham's kindred were chosen? As you mentioned a Jewish marriage, is there not but one chosen? At the wedding of Jesus, will there also be guests? We read in Rev 7:15 concerning the Great Multitude who made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb; therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

    Brother Major, this great multitude is certainly part of the church, but they will be servants, and the bride will be reining with Christ as priests and kings (Rev 5:10) as joint heirs, and as 2 Tim 2:12 tells us. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him . . .
    Blessings in Christ Jesus.
  19. If Satan did not try to kill Jesus at HIs birth, can you explain why Herod had all of those babies killed?
    You are making Mary the WOMAN! You are doing that only because Mary was a woman and woman is the word in the Scriptures. God love ya brother but do you realize how wrong you are? That is not possible either grammatically or theologically.

    Did you read Genesis 39 and the description given to the Nation of Israel by God to Joseph?????
    That is not grammactily or theologically possible.

    The Gospel of Matthew 2 records the event in this manner: “Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men.
  20. Brethren, I reckon I'm beaten. :cry: No I'm not; I'm in Christ, and conditionally may be given one more day if I hold out faithful unto the end huh? :whistle:
    Love you all in Jesus' name. :)

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