Sin That Leads To Death 1 John 5:16

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by banjo71, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. 1 John 5:16

    If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it.

    What is this sin that leads to death? We will all die of something, and sin is a common reason why we die in general. Just like smoking. If a person smokes most of their life and decides actually to quit, they may still die of the consequences of the sin, like lung cancer. Is this a sin that leads to death? Or is it talking about something completely different here?
  2. I am not sure of what sin he is referring to in particular. The statement could apply to any sin
    that is extreme. By "lead to death", he is not speaking of physical death (we all will die), but of spiritual death
    which leads to permanent loss (the second death).
    KingJ likes this.
  3. The people who John was addressing understood what a sin that led to death meant.

    Christians knew that a spiritual Christian did not sin, and if one did deliberately commit a sin that meant death.

    (Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira

    (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. --------“

    I believe my explanation is very hard for most all people who say they are Christian to accept, because very few are spiritual, and have been given the knowledge of the truth.

    My understanding of what makes a Christian is as follows.

    It seems that most Christians say they believe the bible is God’s Word. Yet most all Christians only believe the Words that support his or her theology.

    Jesus told us who would be his true followers. Understand a follower of Jesus is a Christian. One is not a Christian if he or she does not walk as Jesus walked.

    (1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

    For those who believe they are Christians and walk as Jesus walked, has Jesus called you out by name? If not then scripture says you are not a Christian, at least not one of Jesus’ followers.

    (John 10:1-5)"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."
  4. I believe we find the answer in 1 Cor 5. Read it all!!!! ;)

    5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world (lol). 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

    It is important to note that 1 John 5:16 says leading unto death. This passage with yours shows me 3 levels of sin / rebellion to God:

    1. Sin that has not got us by the throats. Where, with the prayers and help of others we can repent sincerely and get life from God. As per your first section of 1 John 5:16 you should pray, and God will give that person life.
    2. Sin that has us by the throats / consistent extremity of inner rebellion / we cannot repent sincerely of ''and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate''. No amount of prayer will help. We need to kick them out of fellowship. They are playing with fire and testing God to His limits.
    3. Those that after being kicked out do still not recognise their wickedness as God hoped. Their level of inner rebellion is at an extremity where they have no more hope. Their days are numbered.
  5. Before we were Christians, the sin we committed lead to death because we didn't reject it as evil. The letters from Paul, (Sorry I can't quote) say that when we do what we know is wrong, it is not us doing it but sin living inside of us. So as Christians our life is in check because we know right from wrong and repent at disobedience.
  6. Jesus said that there is only one sin that is unforgivable..............Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
    I gather though that there is no sense of 'leading to' implicit in Jesus' words......though maybe there was,
    John is somewhat vague about this himself. Where we read 'there is A sin that leads to death...' I believe we need to mentally blank out the indefinite article since there is none in the Greek. So there is sin that leads to death, and John does not advocate that we pray for that (situation). However he stops short of forbidding prayer in that case.

    My take on the passage is this:
    John could not specify exactly what sin(s) lead to death, and neither can we, so we should pray for everyone who is caught up in sin. If, when we are able to identify positively some sin that leads to death, ie. death status has not yet been reached, we can pray for the person, but on the understanding that there is not much likelihood of salvation. And unarguably, we should warn the person as well as pray for them in the hope that they will repent before it is too late for them.
    Silk likes this.
  7. A person who has been given the Holy Spirit, and has allowed the Holy Spirit teach him or her the knowledge of the truth, and is living God’s Word knows what is a sin leading to death.

    John also knew, and those he was writing to also knew what was a sin leading to death.

    When a person becomes a Spiritual Christian he or she has told God/Holy Spirit they love him.

    (John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

    If a Spiritual Christian, a person who has been given the knowledge of the truth deliberately commits a sin, then he or she is lying to the Holy Spirit. Lying to the Holy Spirit is blasphemy.

    (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

    Notice Hebrews says those who insult the Spirit of grace/Holy Spirit.

    Also the early Christian had a very embedded lesson on how deadly it is for one to lie to the Holy Spirit.

    (Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira
  8. #8 Richard L, Nov 16, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
    That is not what Hebrews 10:26 says. I don't advocate any kind of willful sin, but you aren't even quoting the text of Hebrews, you are writing your own. That is a very dangerous thing to do with a book that is poured over by scholars whose work is judged by councils of believers before it is published.

    The beginning of Hebrews 10:26 from the New International Version reads,
    "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,"

    That is a much less strict rendition than yours. I'm all for the fear of God, but you should not edit the Bible to your liking to try and inspire it.

    Also, please consider the parable of the prodigal son. Additionally, when Jesus asked how many times a believer should forgive their (repentant) brother, He said "seventy times seven."

    To answer the OP I have no idea what the sin that leads to death is. I've wondered this myself, and I thought it was the stuff described in Hebrews 10:26 and the verses following. Really, though, the wages of sin itself is death, so maybe it's anyone claiming to be Christian that is still living a sinful lifestyle and is known to be unrepentant (like the verses in Hebrews say). After all, those were the types Paul (it's in 1 Corinthians chapter 5 toward the end of the chapter) said had to be rebuked properly, then, if they did not repent, were to be thrown out of the church. "Do not even eat with such people" he said. But, it's a process, and no one should be quick to judge.
  9. I'll agree that Hebrews 10:26 isn't really a good reference for this question. The author was stating that one could not go back to the way of sacrifice. He was writing to Jewish (Hebrew) people who desired to go back to sacrificial atonement, as opposed to a faith through faith in Christ's sacrifice.
  10. Seems to me that there is plenty in Scripture to councel us to be meek and humble. Having the mind of Christ and showing His grace and mercy.
    James 5:13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20. Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit. 19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
    Looking at v15b and 16 it is clear that people of God do in fact sin.
    Looking at V19 & 20 it is clear that prayer and exhortation to righteousness are encouraged for those who are wandering from the truth of the Gospel.
    I understand John's teaching in 1 John 5 to refer to the last resort when all else has failed and the person has declared their rejection of God's grace.
    We all have a serious need to be looking out for our brothers and sisters in Christ; for unlike Cain, we are indeed to be our brothers keepers because of our Love for Christ Jesus.
    Silk and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  11. First the bible is not a history book. The Holy Spirit did not put Words in if they were not for us.

    If you read Hebrews you should see it was speaking to those who have been given the knowledge of the truth, and one can only receive that through the Holy Spirit.

    (1 Corinthians 2:10-16)

    Hebrews also says: “who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment.”

    It would be hard for Jews to insult the Holy Spirit who they did not have or ever have known.

    People who can’t stop sinning have to disregard Hebrews in some way, because it tells us that after one has received the knowledge of the truth one does not sin.

    So those who still sin according to Hebrews are either headed for server punishment, or have not received the knowledge of the truth.
  12. I find it more interesting that nobody seems to be asking about a sin that does not lead to death, but are instead focused on sin that does lead to death. The fact that there is a division made at all seems to speak to something.
  13. Sins that don’t lead to death are sins/wrongdoings that are done by those who have not yet become spiritual, those people will be judged by the Law.

    Also there are wrongdoings that Spiritual people commit before the Holy Spirit has taught them the wrongdoing was just that. These sins are not deliberate, and will be forgiven with prayer.
  14. Maybe we are all preoccupied with sin. :cry: Wasn't it the author of John's Epistles who noted that division?
  15. I am not sure what you may mean by being preoccupied by sin. But if one sins then that should be the only aspect of his or her life to be considered. Sin separates us from God.

    Being separated from God is the worst thing that can happen to a person.

    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”
  16. Yes, sin and the guilt thereof does indeed separate us from God. My comments were specifically directed at/to Banarenth's post.
    Does that exclude you or any others? no means, however knowing that might make my comments a little clearer for you.
  17. Just to clarify what in particular John means in 1John 5:16 by what in particular John actually said in that passage, first of all there is the phrase "there is a sin that leads to death", and Yes, in the Greek "sin" is singular. So John is referring not to a category of sin, but to a particular sin.

    Secondly note that the verse starts, "If anyone sees his brother sinning ...". The verb "sinning" is in the present tense. Throughout his letter John uses the present tense to indicate lifestyle, and the aorist tense to indicate point in time events. Here he's speaking of an alleged brother whose characteristically sinning. This is important because in verse 18 he says, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin". Thus he's indicating that the "brother" of 1John 5:16 is a brother in name only and not one who has been born of God and thus unsaved.

    The sin itself, being a particular sin, I would take to be the same Jesus mentioned of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, of which I think Heb 6 also alludes as others have mentioned.

    What this all means is that there are those among the Christian community who are "brothers" in name only, not having yet come to genuine faith in Christ, who might come to the point where they commit apostasy, abandoning the faith. I think John is saying that it might be in vain to pray for them, being impossible to bring them back into repentance, as Heb 6:4-6 indicates. But there are other nominal Christians who might be living in sin whom, nonetheless have not abandoned the faith. Pray for them. We see such a case in 1Cor 5 of a man involved in sexual sin who later repented according to 2Cor.
  18. IMO John is thinking about the sins he has urged against his entire epistle: Sins unto death then would be.......
    * refusal to accept Christ as God's incarnate Son.
    * habitual disobedience to God's commands.
    * consistant failure to love others.

    Sins not unto death would be:
    * Sins that do not mark deliberate and persistant rebellion.
    * they do not make up apostasy from Biblical truth.
    Silk likes this.
  19. I'm gonna go with blaspheming the Holy Spirit but I also agree, Major, with your separation/categorization of sin. But didn't Christ die in expiation of ALL sin - past, present - future? I'm not asking to be funny/sarcastic. To start to say all sins cannot be forgiven by acceptance of Christ seems anti-christian.
    To be clearer, if you refute the Holy Spirit, aren't you saying you have not accepted Christ?
  20. The only sin not forgivable is rejecting the Holy Spirit.

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