Sheol/Hades study

[ATP]

And sometimes it is what it is. And sometimes we look to hard to find something that just is not there.

Luke COULD have done that but what he did write was..........
22-23......"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
(The location of the spirits of the dead-the Paradise side of hell. His body was buried in the ground.)
the rich man also died, and was buried;
(His body was in the ground but his spirit was also in hell-the Torments side),
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

I really think you are working way too hard over words. IMO......It is what it is!!!!

Well, he's not referring to the afterlife at all.

 

[Major]

I'm thinking that he used Hades instead of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, so we would make the distinction between the priesthood in this life vs. the afterlife. If Luke used Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, then we would be certain he was referring to the afterlife, but he didn't. So we know he was simply telling a story about the demise of the priesthood and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Luke could of wrote it like this, but he didn't......

Example 1: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Gehenna, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Example 2: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In the Lake of Fire, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex. 39:2,24,29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev. 18:16.

2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex. 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev. 18:16.

3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.5 Caiaphas is likely the unnamed (for obvious reasons) rich man.

- ATP

I have read your comment on Caiaphas before several years ago. I am not convinced that he was the rich man. I am not rejecting him either. We just do not know and I am reluctant to add things in.

IF he was the rich man then Jesus IS NOT TELLING a Parable or an Allegory.

He would be telling a TRUE story of a REAL event.

So, Jesus used all of those details to present an ironic story to the high priest, implicating the priesthood and his family then the irony would be: ........
Caiaphas the Sadducean high priest, who denied the resurrection from the dead, angels, and the spirit, begged father Abraham to raise Lazarus from the dead and send him as a witness to his family, to warn them of the coming judgment.

Abraham's reply: "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets which they surely knew well, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead."

Perhaps the greater irony: Jesus DID raise Lazarus from the dead because It was that fact that Caiaphas scoffed at in John 11.49.

 

[Major]

Well, he's not referring to the afterlife at all.

Yes I think that he is!

Varied usage of this word "Hell" by translators have contributed to the popular meaning of this word in modern English. Scripture passages pertaining to the general words "Sheol" and "Hades", plus the more specific "Gehenna" and Lake of Fire, have all been translated using the word Hell.

That is why I said you are caught up on word usage more the you are on the Word.

 

[ATP]

I have read your comment on Caiaphas before several years ago. I am not convinced that he was the rich man. I am not rejecting him either. We just do not know and I am reluctant to add things in.

I never said Caiaphas was the rich man. Where did that come from?

Varied usage of this word "Hell" by translators have contributed to the popular meaning of this word in modern English. Scripture passages pertaining to the general words "Sheol" and "Hades", plus the more specific "Gehenna" and Lake of Fire, have all been translated using the word Hell.

But the English translation "hell" is a mistranslation. The word hell isn't even in the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts.

 

[Major]

I never said Caiaphas was the rich man. Where did that come from?



But the English translation "hell" is a mistranslation. The word hell isn't even in the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts.

From, comment #39 where you stated..............

3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.5 Caiaphas is likely the unnamed (for obvious reasons) rich man.

 

[ATP]

From, comment #39 where you stated..............

3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.5 Caiaphas is likely the unnamed (for obvious reasons) rich man.

He was (a) rich man, not the rich man in Luke 16. Should of made that clearer. What are your thoughts on hell being a mistranslation.

 

[Major]

He was (a) rich man, not the rich man in Luke 16. Should of made that clearer. What are your thoughts on hell being a mistranslation.

1). I only responded to what you posted in #39.

2). Do you have any thoughts on the validity of Matthew 25:41 in any translation available you choose?????........... ......
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.

Then there is Revelation 14:11.......Is this also a mistranslation?????
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night."

Matthew 25:46........
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal".

It is abundantly clear to me that you are basing your opinion of "There is no Hell" on the idea that it is a mistranslated word.
It is also very true that if one goes to any Google site they will find someone who will have posted something that applies to what they what to believe.

IMO we must resist the thoughts of others and apply ourselves to the Word of God so as to always find the basis of truth.

Is the word "Hell" mistranslated you ask. Maybe but what is the point IF it was???? Bible translators have not been consistent in their translations of the terms GENGNNA and HADES and that is not something new but has always been the case my brother.

That makes things a little confusing for the average English Bible reader. However, it has been my observation that most all study Bibles will tell you when "HELL" is used to translate the word as "HADES".

I am aware that the existence of hell causes a lot of problems with many many people. IMO it stems from the error of mans ability to understand sin and the nature of God. You see, HELL is real because of an incompatibility problem. A holy God and an unholy humanity are incompatible and no amount of time apart from each other can fix that.

That is why HELL (Or whatever term you choose to apply) is real and hot and burns forever and forever and the lost of all time are tormented there. The rules that govern who goes to HEAVEN and HELL (or whatever term you choose to apply) are established by GOD"S NATURE. Things are the way they are because God is the way He is. That makes them unchangeable because God cannot change and that is why He is holy!!!!

No matter how hard we work to make words a "mistranslation" or "another meaning" to fit our thinking does not change the existence of what the Bible has explained to us as a REAL PLACE. Now please understand what I am saying to you. I do not like the idea of a hell that burns with fire and tortures the lost man forever in HELL/HADES or whatever word you choose to apply for that place. I do not like it but that does not allow me to remove it from existence by claiming a mistranslation or anything else.

Jesus believed the reality of hell so much that He left His home in heaven to come and die for each one of us that by believing in Him we would be SAVED from this place or torment regardless of what ever name you choose to call it.

 

[ATP]

It is abundantly clear to me that you are basing your opinion of "There is no Hell" on the idea that it is a mistranslated word.

I never said there is no hell. You're kind of getting off topic here. The scripture at hand is Luke 16:22-23. It's important to understand the correct translation of hell. If translators are looking to use the word "hell", the correct translation would be Gehenna and/or the Lake of Fire. Translating Hades as hell is incorrect. So Luke must be referring to a deeper meaning about the passage. Mostly about the demise of the priesthood. You might ask, what does the song of Moses have to do with anything? Well....

I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. The Song of Moses was a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding too. Hell in this passage of Deu 32 is Sheol. Because Sheol/Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire. I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses...

Deut 32:18-22 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. {abhorred: or, despised} 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. 21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest Sheol, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

 

[ATP]

If anyone has any questions I'll be happy to answer. - Shalom, ATP.