Sex, Law, Grace?

no he is .. those whom scream legalism and such do so trying to justify sin ..
most likely the term "under grace" he got from Apostle Paul ..
AND Paul says UNDER GRACE fornication is still a SIN ..

1Cr 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

1Cr 7:9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Mat 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

1Cr 7:28 But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and I am trying to spare you.

1Ti 5:14 Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach;
1Ti 5:15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

1Th 4:2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
1Th 4:8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
 
We are now broken up, again. I'm trying to be strong but I'd be lying if I said that was easy. I don't understand why it has been so hard to let go.

because you are putting your will (to be with him) above God's will (who may have someone else for you) ..
so do you sin to please him over not sinning to please God ???
that should be easy ..
if he rejects not sinning (God's will) for sinning (his will) then you are UNEQUALLY YOKED .. you cannot drink from both cups .. the cup he chose according to Jesus and Paul is NOT OF GOD ..
 
Long day at work and tend to ramble when I'm tired. Sorry. I just reread my original post as I feel I may not have shared enough detail and I never wanted to mislead anyone. The two biggest issues I'm looking for counsel about are 1] sex out of marriage is NOT ok, it's what I believe but am being told otherwise by someone processing to be a Christian and 2] the whole law and grace/hyper grace. Again, never meant for anyone to make assumptions about my situation and I feel bad for not giving more specifics but in my mind, no matter what sex out of marriage is wrong.
The man I was referring to is my ex husband. I didn't leave it out intentionally. I'm in my forties and have 3 children. I grew up in a Christian home and believed in God as long as I can remember but not always living for Him and immature. I got pregnant young, married and had 2 more children. My husband and I grew together and were married 14 years. We were both believers and for the most part had a good marriage despite our beginnings. Unfortunately, during a time of backsliding we divorced. I NEVER thought that would happen to us. It was the lowest point in my life as I ran further away from God and began questioning everything. Very scary time.
Almost right after my divorce I met the "man" I've been referring to in my original post. He said he was a Christian and in a matter of months I was married... again. Of course looking back now I cringe over the wrong choices I made. Within the first month the abuse began. Never a regular thing but within the first year I was kicked, choked, hit across the face, pinned down while being spit upon my face. The verbal and emotional and name calling took its toll too. I knew I had allowed this to happen. I used to go in the bathroom, lock the door ands silently sob asking God to please let me open my eyes to find this just a bad dream. He wasn't physical with my kids but was very mean calling my 15 year old daughter the C word and similar. I became severely depressed. Tried counseling at church and a Christian psychologist but he quit and REFUSES to go again. As you can imagine he didn't like what he heard. At the prompting of family, church and our counselors and for the sake of my kids, we separated. The most wonderful thing to come out of this was in my utter despair I fell into my Father's arms again and He forgave me. I could NEVER adequately express how much I love Him, need Him and respect Him, EVER. I have been humbled and broken to be accepted by Him with open arms and never want to be without Him. Probably the hardest thing to handle is how all this hurt my kids.
So, rambling, we separated and I truly wanted to stay married and not go through a divorce again. I knew we needed help but he wouldn't go and we got divorced but we have continued to go back and forth as I still believe God's best is for reconciliation especially between believers. We have been divorced for four years and the sex has stopped. I've at times had to physically struggle with him and run out the door but he knows absolutely how important this is to me but he disagrees as "he is not under the law but under grace". During the last few years one of our pastor began teaching what some call "hyper grace". Not saying it's all wrong [or all right] but some, like my ex have taken it to mean since all sin was forgiven at the cross God doesn't see our sin, only righteousness as we "are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus". He believes we shouldn't even acknowledge or confess our sin because it's wrong for us to remind God of something He doesn't remember! In his view condemnation = guilty FEELINGS and we should never feel guilty! Hard to trust someone who believes that. The pastor who was teaching this was let go. Soon after my ex decided not to go anymore and now watches one big grace preacher on TV occasionally.
I hope this fills in the blanks and again I'm truly sorry if anyone feels misled as it was never my intention. I'm just struggling. I've pretty much drained family and friends with this. God bless you all.
 
My take on the whole grace thing is that, for me, sin is anything that leads me further away from knowing God's love. So while I've been given redemption through Jesus Christ and (and I'm honestly not sure about this next part) sinning now may not prevent me from entering heaven after I've physically died, it does have a real and present effect on my experiencing God now. And I don't see that as even being due to judgment on God's part (ie He notices it and then says "I'm going to love Pete less today) but due to something it does within me.

Hope that makes sense even if it doesn't answer any questions you are facing.
 
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I want to make sure I understand this:

Husband #1: Married for 14 years, 3 kids, not an abuser.
Husband #2: Abusive douche bag, no kids?, divorced for 4 years.

Do I have it right so far? If you've been divorced from Husband #2 for 4 years now, what is it that keeps you associating with him? Why have you not jettisoned him from your life completely?
 
Long day at work and tend to ramble when I'm tired. Sorry. I just reread my original post as I feel I may not have shared enough detail and I never wanted to mislead anyone. The two biggest issues I'm looking for counsel about are 1] sex out of marriage is NOT ok, it's what I believe but am being told otherwise by someone processing to be a Christian and 2] the whole law and grace/hyper grace. Again, never meant for anyone to make assumptions about my situation and I feel bad for not giving more specifics but in my mind, no matter what sex out of marriage is wrong.
The man I was referring to is my ex husband. I didn't leave it out intentionally. I'm in my forties and have 3 children. I grew up in a Christian home and believed in God as long as I can remember but not always living for Him and immature. I got pregnant young, married and had 2 more children. My husband and I grew together and were married 14 years. We were both believers and for the most part had a good marriage despite our beginnings. Unfortunately, during a time of backsliding we divorced. I NEVER thought that would happen to us. It was the lowest point in my life as I ran further away from God and began questioning everything. Very scary time.
Almost right after my divorce I met the "man" I've been referring to in my original post. He said he was a Christian and in a matter of months I was married... again. Of course looking back now I cringe over the wrong choices I made. Within the first month the abuse began. Never a regular thing but within the first year I was kicked, choked, hit across the face, pinned down while being spit upon my face. The verbal and emotional and name calling took its toll too. I knew I had allowed this to happen. I used to go in the bathroom, lock the door ands silently sob asking God to please let me open my eyes to find this just a bad dream. He wasn't physical with my kids but was very mean calling my 15 year old daughter the C word and similar. I became severely depressed. Tried counseling at church and a Christian psychologist but he quit and REFUSES to go again. As you can imagine he didn't like what he heard. At the prompting of family, church and our counselors and for the sake of my kids, we separated. The most wonderful thing to come out of this was in my utter despair I fell into my Father's arms again and He forgave me. I could NEVER adequately express how much I love Him, need Him and respect Him, EVER. I have been humbled and broken to be accepted by Him with open arms and never want to be without Him. Probably the hardest thing to handle is how all this hurt my kids.
So, rambling, we separated and I truly wanted to stay married and not go through a divorce again. I knew we needed help but he wouldn't go and we got divorced but we have continued to go back and forth as I still believe God's best is for reconciliation especially between believers. We have been divorced for four years and the sex has stopped. I've at times had to physically struggle with him and run out the door but he knows absolutely how important this is to me but he disagrees as "he is not under the law but under grace". During the last few years one of our pastor began teaching what some call "hyper grace". Not saying it's all wrong [or all right] but some, like my ex have taken it to mean since all sin was forgiven at the cross God doesn't see our sin, only righteousness as we "are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus". He believes we shouldn't even acknowledge or confess our sin because it's wrong for us to remind God of something He doesn't remember! In his view condemnation = guilty FEELINGS and we should never feel guilty! Hard to trust someone who believes that. The pastor who was teaching this was let go. Soon after my ex decided not to go anymore and now watches one big grace preacher on TV occasionally.
I hope this fills in the blanks and again I'm truly sorry if anyone feels misled as it was never my intention. I'm just struggling. I've pretty much drained family and friends with this. God bless you all.


This is the consequence of the once saved always saved doctrine. If you are inquiring because you want to study this out for your own purposes, that is fine. If it is to "educate" him, than forget about it. He will not listen. Please see my previous post on the theological part of your question.

With that said, I admire your commitment! However, it is better to remain separate until he truly humbles himself and he proves to be a genuine person. Until then, do not even see each other. He should have the impression that he can no longer talk to you until he is a changed man. His fruits will demonstrate this regardless of how he is treated.

In terms of confession, the thought that someone can "remind" the omniscient God of something is not logical. God knows what is on our hearts before we say it. (Matt 6:8). The purpose of prayer and confession is to change us through his sacrifice and intercession. In addition, God is not going to change our character at his second coming. He cannot afford to take one sinner into the heavenly kingdom. Therefore, if we do not confess our sins and change our ways through His grace and power, but are left with one spot or blemish when intercession ceases, then we will be numbered with the wicked. Rev 22:11.

God Bless,
MoG
 
This is the consequence of the once saved always saved doctrine.

With all due respect, no sir!! This is the consequence of not understanding what "getting saved" really means.. Not understanding what repentance means.. Not understanding what grace means..
 
Please understand, I know little of your situation other than what you've revealed in your post. No, sex outside of marriage is a sin. God means for marriage to be a holy union of a man and woman and sex is part of that union. Remember that Christians live by grace and repent of their sins - we don't live in sin. Your partner sounds like a troubled man, and being that your relationship has continued this way for years is a bad sign. I would suggest you move on with your life and seek out a man who is better suited for you as a Christian. Marriage is too wonderful and important to throw away on a mistake. Take care and God bless you. I'll say a prayer for you.
 
I could NEVER adequately express how much I love Him, need Him and respect Him, EVER. I have been humbled and broken to be accepted by Him with open arms and never want to be without Him. Probably the hardest thing to handle is how all this hurt my kids.
So, rambling, we separated and I truly wanted to stay married and not go through a divorce again. I knew we needed help but he wouldn't go and we got divorced but we have continued to go back and forth as I still believe God's best is for reconciliation especially between believers. We have been divorced for four years and the sex has stopped.

As I suspected, only half the story as the emotional ties you explained are very uncommon unless married or the couple had been having sex. We have a whole lot of post by newer Christians who have been saying how wrong this man is, but I did not buy into it.

This man is not in the wrong and who is the judge? He is what he is and was as he is when you married him. Once he got comfortable with you and had you in his grasp then he allowed his real character to show.

Not my first Rodeo.

Abuse:
The first time this guy kicked you or hurt you should have been the last. Something is wrong with you inside and you need to get God's help and get it fixed. If you love someone, you have their best interest at heart and would never think of harming them or even hurt their feelings. Your confused that this guy actually loved you at some time and it is not so. You represented what need you could fill for him as often the case with most abusive people. This is not his fault, He is what he is. A dog is always a dog unless God changes them.


Kicking your spouse or abusing them is a high misdemeanor charge or Felony in the state I live in. I don't know where you live but Love does not enable people to continue to sin and this guy should have been reported the first time.

My Father in-law locked my mother in law in a room and that netted him 1 year in the county jail for unlawful restraint. I bet he don't do that again.

This is not about what a Pastor preaches, hyper grace, it's about YOU.

This whole thing is about a women that has low self esteem and trouble with bad emotional ties. If everything you said about this guy is true then there is nothing to hold onto that a Women of the Most high would be interested in. You believe God loves to reconcile these broken marriages.................but you would need scripture to believe that. There are none, and so your believing in nothing. It's a bad place to be when you think your in faith for something that is not real. It's called being self deceived.

1Co 7:10
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart (chōrizō ) from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

The Word depart means to put a room between or to separate by room. It does not mean divorce which is a separation before the Lord and as Moses mentioned and Jesus mentioned. It means they separate for a time and Reconcile back. Not re-marry back.

chōrizō (Means depart or separate by a room)
apostasion (Means to divorce by certificate) We also get Apostasia from this Word meaning

Paul's instruction by the Lord was if the spouse depart, let them depart and the women remain unmarried (To anyone else) or come back to the Husband. The Husband was not to put away his Wife.

Put away is not the same as divorce. It was a practice to put away one wife and take another while keeping the original wife bound and unable to be free and Marry again with no bill of divorcement.

Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Jesus said you can't just "put away" but must provide a bill of divorcement. If you Marry another while married to one, it's adultery.

What does the scripture say to your situation?

1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

The scripture says we can't know if we can save a unbelieving spouse. So any faith that a relationship can be fixed is based on nothing. Your waiting to see if someone you divorced would come back and that takes it to a whole other level. By the Word of God they are not yours, it's like believing that any man you choose will come to you and it don't work that way.

We are to be free from abuse and these things in Christ Jesus. This is why these scriptures were given to us so that you can serve God and be happy. You have a right to believe God for the best husband who serves God and is a leader of his family. You should not be hanging on to dead things that the Lord has set you free from for you may be a very old lady before this guy gets turned around or even if He gets turned around. The scripture says we don't know.

You should also seek some help as to why you accept any form of abuse and why you would tolerate such a thing. In 23 years of marriage it has never crossed my mind to hit my wife and as I have grown stronger in the Lord I avoid any conversation that would remotely bring up past hurt feelings. How I feel is not what matters, It's How I make her feel. You should expect the same from the future Husband God would have in store for you.
 
With all due respect, no sir!! This is the consequence of not understanding what "getting saved" really means.. Not understanding what repentance means.. Not understanding what grace means..


Thank you for the due respect.:) In your opinion, what is the relationship between "once saved always saved" and "getting saved" as you see it? What does "once saved always saved" mean to you?

God Bless,
MoG
 
Thank you for the due respect.:) In your opinion, what is the relationship between "once saved always saved" and "getting saved" as you see it? What does "once saved always saved" mean to you?

God Bless,
MoG
When a person is saved, it is sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit.. Can man break the seal of Holy Spirit put by God? That is why once a person is saved, he is always saved.. Because man cannot change God's will.. If someone is using grace as an excuse to sin, they have not understood what salvation is.. And he or she is not really saved..
 
When a person is saved, it is sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit.. Can man break the seal of Holy Spirit put by God? That is why once a person is saved, he is always saved.. Because man cannot change God's will.. If someone is using grace as an excuse to sin, they have not understood what salvation is.. And he or she is not really saved..

Thank you! Then you believe in predestination, where a person does not have a choice in the matter?
 
When a person is saved, it is sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit.. Can man break the seal of Holy Spirit put by God? That is why once a person is saved, he is always saved.. Because man cannot change God's will.. If someone is using grace as an excuse to sin, they have not understood what salvation is.. And he or she is not really saved..

Would this be changing God's will for the outcome? Or changing God's will Before the outcome?

For example, God said thou shalt not steal. I doubt one could reason with God to get him to change his stance on Stealing and His will concerning stealing would always remain the same.

Despite the Will of God, people still steal.

I assume this is what you meant by men not being able to change the will of God................... However even this is scripturally not true concerning each man's relationship with God.

It was God's will to make Eli's house the royal priesthood for ages to come. Eli changed that.
It was God's will to take Israel into the Promise land. By their choice they changed that.

I could go on, but I think you get the point.
 
Would this be changing God's will for the outcome? Or changing God's will Before the outcome?

For example, God said thou shalt not steal. I doubt one could reason with God to get him to change his stance on Stealing and His will concerning stealing would always remain the same.

Despite the Will of God, people still steal.

I assume this is what you meant by men not being able to change the will of God................... However even this is scripturally not true concerning each man's relationship with God.

It was God's will to make Eli's house the royal priesthood for ages to come. Eli changed that.
It was God's will to take Israel into the Promise land. By their choice they changed that.

I could go on, but I think you get the point.
I will pm you later with my reply. Let's get some constructive argument going :) I don't want to hijack the thread with another discussion
 
When a person is saved, it is sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit.. Can man break the seal of Holy Spirit put by God? That is why once a person is saved, he is always saved.. Because man cannot change God's will.. If someone is using grace as an excuse to sin, they have not understood what salvation is.. And he or she is not really saved..

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

1Th 5:8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

Tts 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hbr 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hbr 7:19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Hbr 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Pe 1:21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

1Pe 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

1Jo 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Eph 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

Col 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Col 1:27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1Th 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1Ti 5:5 Now she who is a widow indeed and who has been left alone, has fixed her hope on God and continues in entreaties and prayers night and day.

Tts 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Hbr 6:11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,

Hbr 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
 
I will pm you later with my reply. Let's get some constructive argument going :) I don't want to hijack the thread with another discussion

Sounds fine. The scripture never tells us man can or can not break the seal we are sealed with until the day of redemption. I find it hard to believe that messing up would wind you up in the unsaved pile though or even going astray for many years. We are not saved by works is my understanding.

Then again there are several scriptures that don't paint a good picture for someone that does not serve the Lord Jesus. They don't really say you end up in Hell as the result but the outcome here on earth don't seem favorable.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
 
The scripture never tells us man can or can not break the seal we are sealed with until the day of redemption.

sure it does ..
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Luk 9:62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Hbr 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

2Pe 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.


I find it hard to believe that messing up would wind you up in the unsaved pile though or even going astray for many years.

if your heart becomes rotten, or if you do not remorse sinning .. then you are no better then satan ..

We are not saved by works is my understanding.

nor are we saved by belief alone, but by FAITH & WORKS of the law of Christ (not works of the law if Moses) .. we WILL BE SAVED IF we love God with our all (which includes: belief in God/Jesus, trying not to sin and repenting if we do and obeying His will) and loving neighbor as self - SO SAYS JESUS ..

Mat 3:8 "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

Luk 8:15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

1Pe 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Mat 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Mat 18:35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."


Jhn 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Then again there are several scriptures that don't paint a good picture for someone that does not serve the Lord Jesus. They don't really say you end up in Hell as the result but the outcome here on earth don't seem favorable.

sure the scripture say you will end up in Hell ..

Mat 3:10 "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Luk 3:9 "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Mat 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mat 25:44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?
Mat 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mat 7:21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?
Mat 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
 
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