Sex, Law, Grace?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by lynn w, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. Sex before marriage is NOT God's plan right? The man I've been with on and off for several years and "professes" to be a Christian does not share my belief about this. We've argued and broken up over this MANY times. He has even said "I'm not under the law, don't you dare put me under the law again or I'll never speak to you again". He calls me Moses and Aaron and a pharisee. He says if I feel bad about sex it's just condemnation and then reminds me that condemnation comes from the enemy and I shouldn't listen to it because I'm under grace!? I KNOW I'm not under the law. The 613 laws were given to the Jewish not me. I'm under the law of Christ. That doesn't make sex out of marriage ok, right? I'm not missing something here am I? God's Word is still meant to teach us how to walk our Christian life along with the Holy Spirit, right? I'm exhausted having been at this for years with him. He also says we're not married because every few months I"go crazy" and break up with him and that's a red flag for him. We break up because of our differences. He can quote scripture and knows names and places of who did what in the Bible so I just don't get it. We even went to the church for help but he didn't like what he heard and now quit going as he says "they are mixing law and grace". We are now broken up, again. I'm trying to be strong but I'd be lying if I said that was easy. I don't understand why it has been so hard to let go.
  2. I think he is leaning towards "hyper grace" theology.. It is the extreme opposite of legalism (which is also an extreme and unbiblical). Romans chapter 3 says,

    30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

    It is very clear that we are expected to "uphold" the law. That is the opposite of abandoning the law! We are not subject to law and the curse of the law is broken. That does not mean we have no moral standards. 1 Corinthians 10,

    23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

    He is right when he says he is under law of Christ. But what is the law of Christ? Christ simply pointed back to the 10 commandments! It is not that we have to be legalistic. But we have to live by the moral law.

    Unfortunately hyper grace is embraced by many modern day preachers (I mean, the big popular ones). There are many books written about hyper grace. I have not read them. May be he should approach this with an open mind and read the works done on this subject. And finally pray so that the Lord will open his eyes to see what is revealed in the Word of God.
    Kittif and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  3. I guess the question I have to ask is............. Have you had sex before with this guy?
  4. I'm sorry you're going through this -- it's gotta be difficult.

    It's hard to let go because you're human. I'm not trying to play doctor, but you probably feel guilty for entertaining the idea of breaking up for good. You shouldn't feel guilty for it, though it may be tough.

    Either he has memorized scripture but doesn't know what the scripture means OR he does know what the scripture means, but refuses to abide by it. When he is mocking you in calling you "Moses" or "Aaron" or a pharisee because you want to stick to the commandments of God, then he is missing the point. It sounds like he is combining divine law, like the commandments, with Mosaic law, like keeping kosher. You are not a pharisee for wanting to stick to divine law.

    Staying celibate before marriage isn't Mosaic law, it is divine law. It falls under the commandment of adultery. Sex is a gift from God, but only for those who have made a vocation of marriage in His name.

    He's not under Jewish law, but he is under divine law, and he cannot escape that if he insists on being a Christian.
  5. Are you sure he is a Christian? Some men play at being a Christian in order to have sex with Christian women as they can charm themselves into the womans life by making themselves look "Godly" with all the theology and devout behaviour, which is like a magnet to some women, especially those who are only really going to be happy with CHrist as a partner! I wont go down that road now!

    I lost a women to a man like this, she fell for his good looks, his Godly manner, his smooth talking and knowledge of scripture, then he persuaded her it was ok to have sex, she admitted they had sex numerous times within just a week of meeting him, she let him do it because she did not want to loose such a keeper, that was a facepalm moment if there ever was one.

    After a few months after he got bored with her and moved on to another woman, she was so damaged by this she did not even want to speak to another man again including me, but thats another story.

    In short if he is a genuine believer then he should honour your wishes, if he can not honour and respect you now, then what chance is there when you hit a rough patch in your marriage later on? ZERO.

    Relationship is about loving a person on a spiritual level and for who they are , not sex. Yes the Levitical laws are not for Gentiles, but God still wants us to keep commandments and act in a certain way. It is clear throughout the whole Bible how special sexual relationship is, its more than just a physical act, Soul ties is worth looking at, but again another study and a whole debate and can of worms.

    If a couple want to have sex, then get married. I knew one Christian couple in the USA who angered both sets of families when they decided to get married earlier than planned, they just did it on the spot so to speak, because they were both away on holiday with each other and found it impossible to keep out of each others beds. They are still a happy couple with God at centre.

    In short if he wants to have sex with you and gets mad when you refuse, then he is not going to be a good husband. I would just tell him to sling his hook and have nothing to do with him. Find a man who will honour your body and respect you in this aspect.
    KingJ likes this.
  6. Sorry for not reading the post thoroughly.. Whatever I told still holds good for that guy.. From your perspective, I have nothing more to add to what the above posters just wrote.. I fully agree that their advice is sound and right.

  7. I believe not having sex before marriage if for everyone!!! even if you are a saved Christian! sex with someone who is not your spouse is fornication and the Bible clearly says that it is wrong. if he is a Christian he would know that and not make you feel bad or try to pressure you. anyone can read the Bible and memorize it, unfortunately some people do that to try to find ways to control people and sometimes justify their own sins. if you have so many differences that you guys break up a lot, then it seems like (in my opinion) that he is not the right man for you. the right man will respect and honor your body and his own! please pray that God will reveal to you the answer to all of this.
  8. You've been together for years and he doesn't want to marry you. There's YOUR red flag.
  9. This guy is a world class scum bag. He did you a favor by breaking up with you because now you don't have to break up with him. Easy day! You can go your own way and leave him in the rear view mirror, which is exactly what you should do. You should never talk to him again.

    If, by some remote chance, this guy is actually a Christian, he is not serious about his faith and therefore not worthy of your time and attention. More likely than not, he is just some pious, self-righteous predator who's trying to manipulate you into having sex with him because he knows you're susceptible to falling for it. I simply can't accept that a spirit filled Christian can truly fool himself into thinking that what he's doing is acceptable.

    Honor God with your body and keep yourself for the man you marry. If you're smart, it won't be this guy because he's got nothing to offer you.
  10. #10 lynn w, Jan 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
    He is most definitely following the BIG hyper grace teachers on TV. One of our pastors at church began using some of the teachings from one particular TV preacher and recommending his books. Sometimes it felt as though we spent more time learning about his books than the Bible. There were times I could hardly sit through the sermons, literally, had to fight the urge to get up and walk out. I don't know if it was his teaching or the way my "man" was interpreting them. It wasn't long before he decided getting drunk was ok now, swearing was ok, sex out of marriage was ok, etc. as he was free from the law and was under grace. If I said I didn't want to get drunk or looked at him sideways when he dropped the f-bomb over and over our God forbid say anything about porn or refuse sex out of marriage I was reminded that I was not under the law and any attempts on my part to "do good" were viewed by God as filthy rags. When I explained I obey because I love my Father so very much he would say "if you've broken any of the law, you've broken it all and we sin all the time anyway, don't be self righteous". He just tells me I'm crazy. Sad thing is I think he really believes this. I truly feel bad for him. We've really gone back and forth over this in the past year and I just want so badly to get through to him. The pastor at our church has since left. I'm not sure what happened but he got in front of the congregation on his knees and apologized for doing something that made him "no longer qualified to be our pastor" and feeling such great shame for it. Shortly after that my "man" quit going opting to just watch the big preacher on TV. Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with their teaching completely but maybe just the way it can be interpreted. How in the world does one discuss this with someone and am I missing something here?
  11. The problem with hyper grace people is, they pretty much shut the door for conviction of Holy Spirit.. Remember this.. When pre-marital sex is okay, then divorce and extramarital relationships are also going to be okay.. After all, they are under grace and not under law :) So what's wrong having an affair after marriage! Hearing other things you just quoted, you have to stay away from this guy as soon as possible.. Pray for him, but stay away. That is the advice I can give.
  12. Hi Lynn,sounds like you are having a really tough time with this, what has been posted is good advice, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned what the first Church council in Acts 15 decided was the correct behavior for Christians, so maybe this will help you.

    James speaking;

    Therefore my judgment is that we do not trouble those who have turned to God from among the nations, but that we write to them that they should abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. Act 15:19, 20

    Seems pretty clear to me, James was speaking by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, before marriage is taboo! Also, Scripture says fornicators will be judged Heb 13:4, ...and, going back to the first marriage in the Garden, Adam and Eve were told to cleave to one another, to become one flesh through the means of the act of sex, ...what happens at orgasm is seven hormones are produced and released in our bodies that cause us to love our mate, i.e. cleaving, this cleaving only happens when there is an commitment of and in the heart of the two people involved, however, if there isn't a commitment, the seven hormones are still produced and released, but they act in a negative way and cause the two fornicators to eventually hate one another, which we find an illustration of this principle in the story of Amnon and Tamar, 2 Sam 13, you remember, Amnon was so love sick for Tamar he couldn't eat, then after he did his dastardly deed we are told his hatred for her was stronger than the love he had had for her.

    I hope you are beginning to see that this guy only wants to destroy you and himself, if he hasn't done so to himself already, remember, love is patience, a couple in love can wait.

    Now it wouldn't be very brotherly or loving of me to just tell you what not to do, so please have patience with me while I try to briefly explain what you can do.

    God is a triune Being, three Persons in One, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, man was created in the image of God in that we are made of three distinct parts, body, soul and spirit, with our body we relate to the physical, our souls are our emotions and heart, our spirit is where we talk to and commune with God, so, going back to the first marriage in the Garden, when Adam saw Eve he exclaimed, bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, ...which means, she is the perfect mate for me! That means there was a physical attraction, a romantic spark, there was communication between two souls, they were best friends, they loved to hang together and the were on the same wave length, so to speak, with their desires towards pleasing God and worshiping God, ...that is the model for us today, the Adam Father has prepared for you will fit perfectly with your desires in these three categories and yours with his, it will just click and you will both know it, out of the three the marriage is doomed, two out of the three will work, but it will be a struggle with lots of work, three out of three, ...a marriage made in heaven

    If we glean some more from this love story we will see that Father knew what Adam needed before Adam realized it Gen 2:18, it was only after Adam had named all of the animals Mr & Mrs that he realized he was alone, that teaches us that Father puts the desire in us, awakens us to our need before we even think about it, so, if you or anyone is desiring a mate it's because Father has placed that desire in our hearts, just imagine what would of happened if Adam would of chosen his mate himself, probably ended up with a monkey or gorilla (which is what will happen to you dear one if you continue with this relationship,'ll be living with a gorilla), so what did Father do to Adam so that he could receive, meet his mate? Put him to sleep, and that's my advice to you dear one, go to sleep, ...stop looking, stop searching, have faith in God, the just live by faith, the mean time become active in a Bible teaching church, continuing to grow daily in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and you will find one day Father will waken you and there will be your Adam standing in front of you (I speak from experience, this is exactly how Father worked in my life and then moved me 1/4 way around the world to present my Eve to me), ...every good and perfect gift comes from above.

    There you go, I hope this helps, ...remember and appropriate this into your life,

    For now there are faith, hope, and love. But of these three, the greatest is love. 1Co 13:13

    Faith that our past has been erased, hope knowing Father is preparing the future for us, which frees us to love and serve Him with all of our heart, soul, mind and body, with this Truth appropriated into your heart you can sleep peacefully while Father is knocking off the rough edges of your Adam before He presents him to you.

    In His Love,

  13. Yeah, how do you discuss this with someone? If you ever figure it out, let us know!

    The Bible never gives anyone permission to sin. And it certainly does not teach us to try to make people feel bad about not sinning. I am curious what he does with passages like Romans 6:

    v1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
    v12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts
    v15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
  14. My question was ignored... I am still curious how this man can speak to you this way and you never had sex with him. Your story does not make any sense. Most girls keeping themselves for marriage would have shut this guy out long ago unless there was some spiritual tie like sex in the past. Even unsaved men don't act like that unless there is that special tie there that should have been saved for marriage.

    If you violated your conscience and gave into this man in the past, then you did so against what is commanded for anything that is not of faith is sin.........


    Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)

    If you never had sex with this man, you should have dumped him the first time he went through his thing about sex.

    If you had sex with this man but want to do right now, then that is your fault, not his as he already had that special thing that should have been saved and is confused why your being this way.

    We don't violate our on conscience and expect anything good to come from it, nor do we blame others. We were warned not to do so.

    If you did not violate your conscience then this guy should not even be a thought, and no reason for the post. It's the mans job to protect the women spiritually and be the head.

    Only though sex and marriage ties do I see this type of language and strong attachments.

    I hope you have kept yourself with this man, if not, we need to call it for what it is as the truth makes us free.
  15. #15 KingJ, Jan 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
    Rofl. Sin = sin that's why we all need a Saviour. Once we have our Saviour, sin is scaled. Big sin = big rebellion. If you were still with him you could have...Asked him if he has thaught of other woman. Then say, you won't leave him but you are going to be with another man to get even...then see what he thinks of sin = sin :X3:.

    OT taught marriage. Paul taught marriage. If we properly applied our mind as to why...we would find that it is for our protection. Us obeying the law pleases God simply because He doesn't want to see us hurt. 99% of the ''law'' is simply for our protection. Think about that for a while. What in the universe does God care about the Jews not eating pork? Did pork hurt God or us? etc etc ;).

    Pete made an excellent point. You have been with him for so long and no attempts at marriage. Why marriage is for our protection is because the alternative is a lack of love and commitment after you have given the greatest gift you can, your body and soul. Exactly what the devil wants.

    At the same time however, Michael has made an excellent point too. If you did have anything, you need to give him some grace and perhaps go to a non-hyper-grace pastor for counseling.
  16. #16 Man-ofGod, Jan 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014

    Dear Lynn,

    The bible says "you will know them by their fruits" Matt 7:16,. Based on what you told us, this man is seeking to manipulate you into having sex. What is worse, he is using the bible to do it. If you give in to him, let me show you a bible illustration of what his attitude will be to you afterwards.

    2 sam 13:1: And it came to pass after this, that Absalom the son of David had a fair sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David loved her.

    6 So Amnon lay down, and made himself sick: and when the king was come to see him, Amnon said unto the king, I pray thee, let Tamar my sister come, and make me a couple of cakes in my sight, that I may eat at her hand.

    8 So Tamar went to her brother Amnon's house; and he was laid down. And she took flour, and kneaded it, and made cakes in his sight, and did bake the cakes.

    9 And she took a pan, and poured them out before him; but he refused to eat. And Amnon said, Have out all men from me. And they went out every man from him.

    0 And Amnon said unto Tamar, Bring the meat into the chamber, that I may eat of thine hand. And Tamar took the cakes which she had made, and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother.

    11 And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister.

    12 And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly.

    14 Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.

    15 Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone.

    Ammon behaved this way because he had a selfish love. Once he got what he wanted, he had no more respect for her. If he has genuine Godly love, he will respect your decision and would not accuse you. Please keep hold of your integrity, you can find someone better. God Bless, MoG.
  17. Which is another reason I am confused about this post.......... If a place teaches that Grace gives me the ability to drink, have sex with anyone, and everything will be OK, then it's not even a Church or should be taken seriously.

    Grace is the extended hand to the unsaved as a way to the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Once Jesus is Lord and the Grace through faith to be saved accepted. Then all other forms of Grace mentioned was given to those who want to do the will of God.

    Grace is power, to do the calling of God and obey God with ability we don't physically possess or mentally possess.

    It's never been a gate to disobey God.

    Grace to multiply your seed you sow. Grace to have the money come in and help to build the new church. Grace to make a way for that 20 million dollar jet to preach all over the World. Grace to afford buses to pick up Kids for Church.

    Grace is an ability that accomplishes the plan of God.

    Grace to get a Job that would not normally hire you. Grace to make a way for a car to drive when you could not afford one.

    Any Church that would suggest Grace means the ability to get away with disobedience is not even a church.

  18. Just wanted to say thank you to all who have replied. I never know how much to say when starting a thread. I'm working all day and will try to respond tonight. Again thanks and God bless you. So nice to have a place to reach out to other believers!

  19. To address your theological question, I believe many misinterpret Romans 6:14. In part, that is what is leading to so much moral confusion and this idea of "natural law" that some advocate. Paul's burden is not necessarily discrediting the law of Moses, but in his epistle he is trying to explain how we are saved from the condemnation of the law. (Rom 8:1). But this is not because there is a problem with the law (Rom 7:7) but a problem with us. (Rom 8:1). Christ takes on our condemnation, and frees us from the condemnation of the law through His intercession for us (Heb 7:25). He provides us with this wonderful opportunity to develop a character like him through his intercession. But if we do sin, we have an advocate he empathizes with us (Heb 4:15-16).

    With that said, do not bother trying to argue this with your boyfriend, he is not making biblical arguments to get you right with the Lord but is trying to get something out of you. Talking scripture with him will be a waste of breath. My prior advice still stands. God bless Lynn!
  20. no he is .. those whom scream legalism and such do so trying to justify sin ..
    most likely the term "under grace" he got from Apostle Paul ..
    AND Paul says UNDER GRACE fornication is still a SIN ..

    1Cr 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

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