Seven Spirits of God

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Abdicate, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Hi @Complete,

    Great to chat with you. Now I haven`t heard of that before, re: Revelation not to do with the Body of Christ. Just for my info (as I don`t want to derail the thread) what about the 7 Churches in Rev. 2 & 3 & the 24 Elders? Who do you believe they are?

    All the best, Marilyn.
     
  2. #42 CCW95A, Apr 2, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
    The entire subject of the Bible is about Christ and his Church. That was God's purpose in the beginning. All things were made by him and for him, and without him nothing was made that was made. You can never talk about Christ without talking about his Church as Jesus is our head, and we are his body. What is the subject of the book of Revelations? It tell us in the very first verse!!!

    Rev 1:1.. The revelation of Jesus Christ........
     
    crownoflife likes this.
  3. Hello @Marilyn C,

    I am at present reading through the minor prophets, in order to better understand the book of Revelation. However, because I get caught up and captured by details, I tend to take a long time. I have studied the book of Revelation, but not for some time.

    You ask me what I believe concerning the identity of the 7 Churches and the 24 Elders. Briefly, I will just say that I believe that there will be a people for God on the earth during these eventful years, which are set in. 'the day of the Lord.' There will be the remnant of believing Israelites; the 144,000 sealed ones; the great multitude; and other faithful ones who are referred to throughout the book (eg., chaps 7,11,12 and 17; in chapter seventeen we can read of, 'the remnant of her [the woman's seed], which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ).

    These all need special instruction, warning and encouragement, and chapters 2 and 3 provide much of that in the epistles to the seven churches. I believe that these churches (or assemblies) will exist, in that day ('the day of the Lord'); being future assemblies of Jewish believers on the earth, after the Church has been taken. They will be able to understand what we now find great difficulty in comprehending, in this 'Testimony of Jesus Christ'.

    The People of the book are described as 'servants', whereas, Paul's epistles are addressed to 'Sons'. For though the members of the Body of Christ are, in a certain sense servants of Christ, yet that is not their standing before God (Gal. 4:7). Whereas God's people, Israel, are constantly spoken of as His 'Servants'. The book of Revelation is sent to them specifically in chapter 1. v.1, and is the title used of the people who are the subjects of the book over 14 times.

    Regarding the Elders. (Revelation 4:24). I believe these elders to be the heads of the heavenly priesthood (Isaiah 37:2; Jeremiah 19:1), upon which pattern the priesthood on earth was formed (1 Chron. 24:3-5; 1 Chronicles 28:11-13, 19; Hebrews 8:5; and 9:23). Temple worship was modelled on that worship which is carried out in heaven. These twentyfour elders are the princely leaders, rulers and governors of Heaven's worship (they are Kings and Priests). They were not, and are not, nor will be, the Church which is His Body.

    They are not the 'redeemed' for they distinguish between themselves and those who are redeemed (Revelation 5:9,10). They are heavenly (unfallen) beings, and therefore are arrayed in white robes. They speak of creation (Revelation 4:8-11), they sing of redemption (5:8-14) to them, a new song. One of them speaks to John (7:13-17) as though separate from both John and the great multitude. They offer in Revelation 5:8 (the prayers of the saints), so they are priests ministering for others. Is this the work of the Church which is the Body of Christ? (see 2 Chron. 5:11-14).

    There is no way that I can do justice to either subject here, it needs careful study, and time taken over every aspect, doesn't it? I just hope that this is clear and to the point.

    Thank you for your response, and request, Marilyn.
    I praise God for your manner, and approach
    You would have been a good teacher I think.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  4. Hi @Complete,

    Thank you for your kind words of encouragement and also for your reply. Never heard of that `view` before. Helps me to understand what you believe & I`m sure we will have very interesting discussions on other threads that bring up those topics. Thus I will not derail this thread but appreciate you sharing from where you are coming from.

    Blessings, Marilyn.
     
  5. I read today a comment upon Revelation 1:4, that I wish I had read earlier, on " ... The seven spirits (pneumata) which are before the throne ..."

    'In the AV of 1611, this had a small 's', and so it should have been kept. Current editions of the AV having a 'S'.

    When we are distinctly told that there is only "One Spirit" (Eph.4:4), how can we understand this number, 'seven', or any other, as being used of the Holy Spirit?

    The Apocalypse is full of references to the doings of these same "seven angels"; who, as the "servants" of God find their proper place "before" the throne.

    But, surely, if the Holy Spirit be GOD, He must be on the throne.

    It is assumed that the Trinity is mentioned or referred to in these verses (4 and 5); but it is only an assumption. There is no reason whatever why we should create such a difficulty for ourselves.

    The theme of the book is judgement. Its scope is "the Day of the Lord". And, in those judgement scenes, special angels are mentioned as being assessors, holding high office and estate - as principalities and powers. See Matthew 26:27. "The Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels." See 1 Timothy 5:21. "I charge thee before the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels" (compare Acts 8:29).

    The article (the) denotes the "seven angels" referred to throughout the Apocalypse.

    Those who take this as referring to the Holy Spirit Himself refer to Isaiah 11:2. But there is no number mentioned there. Seven spiritual gifts are enumerated, and designated; but this is quite a different thing, and affords no warrant for such a polytheistic interpretation. (see Matthew 12:18).'

    (Ref: 'The Giver and His Gifts' by Dr E.W Bullinger)

    In Christ Jesus.
    Chris
     
  6. To my way of thinking though, we should not be bound by the interpretation used by any translator. Not disputing the translation as such, but just questioning things like capital/lower case etc.
    I understand that translators use capital or not in an effort to provide clarity for us, and also where there is no doubt that the Holy Spirit is names the capitals are used as a matter of repect.
    In the case of Eph. 4:4 that you have used as an example.......
    from the 1611 Kjv. Eph 4:3. Endeuouring to keepe the vnitie of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4 There is one body, and one spirit, euen as yee are called in one hope of your calling.
    So V3 has capital 'S' and V4 has lower case 's'
    It seems to me that using both context and common sense the Holy Spirit is not the subject of V3, for how could we disrupt of divide the Holy Spirit?
    We sure can have division of the spirit of our own fellowship though, so while there is an exchange of case used by the translators, that is a matter of their interpretation.
    Should our understanding be governed by the interpretation of others of brought under the control of contextual critique.
    I personally prefer to look at a verse, sniff around the verses before and after, looking for the relevant context and then go from there.
    So, to recap, the use of capitals or not is a matter of choice and must be brought under subjection to context.
    You and others might disagree with me, but that is Okay.
    We could maybe discuss this in more detail in another thread.
     
  7. The word is πνευματωνv and means "spirits" plural. Copy and Google it... you'll see. Strong's only gives you the root words, not their state. It has been interesting to read what people have said. Me, I like to use the word of God. So here's another clue as to who they are.

    Revelation 4:5 (KJV)
    And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. ​

    A Menorah! John wasn't the first to see this, Moses was, Exodus 19:16, and Zachariah 4:2. So what was seen? Who are all these?

    Revelation 5:6 (KJV)
    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. ​

    Seven Spirits = Seven Lamps = Seven Eyes + Seven Horns = Lamb = Jesus! Zechariah 3:8-10!!
     
    crownoflife and Marilyn C say Amen and like this.
  8. We say there is but one God, yet acknowledge three in one....God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
    Is that so much different from saying there is one Holy Spirit, the......
    1. Spirit of the Lord - also known as the Holy Spirit
    2. Spirit of Wisdom
    3. Spirit of Understanding
    4. Spirit of Counsel
    5. Spirit of Might
    6. Spirit of Knowledge
    7. Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.
     
    crownoflife, Marilyn C and Abdicate says Amen and like this.
  9. Funny how it all seems to get derailed with theories and ideas rather thinking it through and using the word of God, no? :)
     
    Marilyn C and calvin say Amen and like this.
  10. Yes, @CCW95A, I agree,

    Isaiah 11:2 describes the attributes of the One Spirit that shall rest upon the Messiah.

    'And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,
    and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
    the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
    the spirit of counsel and might,
    the spirit of knowledge
    and of the fear of the LORD;
    And shall make Him
    of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD:
    and He shall not judge after the sight of His eyes,
    neither reprove after the hearing of His ears: ... '

    (Isa 11:1-3)

    One Spirit, many qualities.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     

  11. Thank you, @calvin,

    I agree that the context determines the meaning of the words used and their interpretation: but it is helpful having the capital 'S' used for the Holy Spirit, as well as giving honour to His Name.

    You refer to the use of Ephesians 4:4, " There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling ...", contrasting verse 3, and the use of the word, 'spirit' there: which is interesting, Calvin, and I thank you for it. I agree with your interpretation of it, too: also with your approach to Scripture, of always taking into consideration the context of the subject being studied.

    Yes! Large 'S' or small, the context must have the last word.

    My thanks, again, calvin.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  12. Hello again, @calvin,

    I see nothing wrong with what you have said, here, and am in agreement. For the Holy Spirit, is endowed with all the qualities listed in points 1-7.

    Just as there is just one 'Fruit' of the spirit, in Galatians 5:22, manifested there in nine different ways:-

    'But the fruit of the Spirit is
    love, joy, peace, longsuffering,

    gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Meekness, temperance:

    against such there is no law.'

    Praise God!

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  13. Hello @Abdicate,

    I see no 'derailment'. No one is disputing that there is One Holy Spirit, and that He is, in Isaiah 11:2, seen to have seven qualities attributed to Him, which are to 'rest' on the Messiah, and be characteristic of Him.

    What is being disputed is the use made of Isaiah 11:2 in relation to 'the seven spirits' of Revelation chapter one. For the seven spirits there, are not One, but seven: and are angels. elect of God for a specific purpose, which the context reveals.

    That dispute does no despite to the Word of God.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  14. Hello again, @Abdicate,

    Yes, here again, in these references we see 'the seven spirits of God' as in Revelation 1:4, portrayed as seven lamps of fire. You refer to Exodus 19:16 and Zechariah 4:2:-

    'And it came to pass on the third day in the morning,
    that there were thunders and lightnings,
    and a thick cloud upon the mount,
    and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud;
    so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.'

    (Exo 19:16)

    'And said unto me, "What seest thou?"
    And I said, "I have looked,
    and behold a candlestick all of gold,
    with a bowl upon the top of it,
    and his seven lamps thereon,
    and seven pipes
    to the seven lamps,
    which are upon the top thereof:
    '
    (Zec 4:2)

    The answer to your question, 'So what was seen? and Who are all these? is given in Zechariah at least, in verses 11-14, in answer to Zechariah's question:-

    'For who hath despised the day of small things?
    for they shall rejoice,
    and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel
    with those seven;

    they are the eyes of the LORD,
    which run to and fro through the whole earth.
    Then answered I, and said unto him,
    What are these two olive trees
    upon the right side of the candlestick
    and upon the left side thereof?"
    And I answered again, and said unto him,
    "What be these two olive branches
    which through the two golden pipes
    empty the golden oil out of themselves?"
    And he answered me and said,
    "Knowest thou not what these be? "
    And I said, "No, my lord."
    Then said he,

    "These are the two anointed ones,
    that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.'

    (Zec 4:10-14)

    ------------------

    In relation to the other verse you have quoted, Revelation 5:6, The horns speak of the power of the Lamb slain, this power is Divine and has a spiritual and almighty agency able to carry it out. The seven eyes, Zech 4:10 and 3:9, denotes the fact that the Lord is about to remove the iniquity of the Land of Israel.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  15. I like your thought and tend to agree with it. Thanks for the input.
     

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