Serve God And Not Religion!

[Major]

apostolos has always been Apostolos, has always been Apostolos.

What you wanted it translated to does not change the Word used.

Apostles are messengers, Not just where you want it changed at.

Sent ones, that is the actually Greek Word. To say there are no more Apostolos is to say there are no more sent out.

If the Holy Spirit meant some messenger He would have used Kerusso.

The Holy Spirit was talking about an office, when the Holy Spirit used Apostolos. I don't think the Holy Spirit Got confused.

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:12)

If there are no Apostolos, then all of us must be perfected. Apostles start foundations. I already gave that scripture.

So I assume Some here that some don't believe we need to start any more churches even though there are lots of places that need them.

It's an anointed office to go in where nothing is.

The Evangilist brings people in.
The Pastor shepards the people.
The Teacher teaches.
The Apostle is anointed to start the Work.
The Prophet exorts and edifies.

We need all these offices.

If the Holy Spirit meant something different the Holy Spirit would not have used Apostles.

And God set fourth Apostles.......... God called some Apostles. It's a calling, an office.

Read the Word as it's written!!! The Holy Spirit got it right the first time. I should not even have to go over these basic lessons.

I guess it will have to stand that we do not agree on this my friend.

We both have posted Scriptures and both of us are pretty much entrenched in what we believe.
I think yours comes from denominational teaching that you have been exposed to, and mine comes from what I believe the Bible clearly teaches us.

So then.....no worries mate and I will speak to you on another thread when the time comes!

Have a grat day and go to church tomarrow!

 

[MichaelH]

Today we need men who can and will teach, pastor and be soul winners from what what we have as our guide lines in the Scriptures.

Right. I already showed you those called Apostles who were not the foundation of the 12. I Showed you they are sent to start works. I Showed you they are given as gifts in office ministries to help perfect the saints. No Apostles then there must not be any Pastor's.

You talked a whole lot about those that call themselves Apostles and you seem to be put off by some folks. I am not sure what fake Apostles or real ones have to do with scriptures, but it seemed to weigh in on you for some reason.

I am not sure why we don't agree. I agree there is no new Word going out today. I don't agree that God just wiped out a ministry office to send out those called to start works. I don't even have a scripture that says that. That is what I am confused about.

If thee are no more Apostles, then there can't be any Pastors or teachers. They were listed together and no mention of God changing his mind about it.


ixoye tried to pull this (Should have been translated to Messenger) I mean it gets pretty sad talking to some believers about things when they think the Holy Spirit got confused and used the wrong Greek Word.

And He sat some Apostles, Prophets, Pastors.......................... That is God giving a calling to do something. All of those can give messages. See what I deal with here? If there were only 12 Apostles mentioned then I would be in the boat with you. But when the Holy Spirit sets Barnabas as an Apostle that was not part of the 12 then I can only scratch my head at what you all are reading here.

I don't know. It's fine Major.

 

[ixoye_8]

it is not about WHERE ..
but about context ..

if the context is about THE chosen 12 messengers ..
then it should be rendered Apostles ..
if the context is about other chosen messengers by THE chosen 12 messengers ..
then it should be rendered messengers ..

how many languages do you speak ???

 

[Major]

Go ahead Major..... Ignore those other scriptures I gave that Showed clearly there were Apostles outside the 12 that laid the foundation.

We don't need any more anointed offices to start works......... Got it.

Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

Barnabas must not been an apostle........... or the others I mentioned........I'll just rip that part out of my bible so I am not confused
anymore.



Who are these folks? Why do I care?

Miracles have nothing to do with Apostles, They are there even if your not an Apostle. Look at Stephan.......... Apostles do work the Gifts of the Spirit, but you don't have to be an Apostle to lay hands on the sick so they be healed.

I want your scripture that says we don't need these two offices anymore. I gave you one where they are for the perfecting of the saints. You give me one where it says we don't need them.

Your dodging my post. Your wrong, you have been taught wrong and If I started taking pages out that you claim can't be for us, I would not have much left to read.

Your scripture Major...................

We have the 12 that laid the foundation.................. We have zero scripture saying that there can't be other Apostles. ZERO........ I gave you scripture with other Apostles not of the 12.

Now you give my your scripture where we don't need 2 of the ministry offices.

Stop beating around the bush, and complaining what someone else does..... Don't hang with them if you don't like it, but here we are talking scripture.

Easy there young man. We have been very respectful and I would hate to see another thread closed because you become heated and move to a position of attacking instead of conversing one with another. Lets just communicate and not demand.

Beyond the unique twelve apostles of Jesus Christ, there were also apostles in a generic sense. You are failing to realize that and accept it. Barnabas is referred to as an “apostle” in that "generic sense" in Acts 13:2 and 14:4. Also Andronicus and Junias are possibly identified as apostles in Romans 16:7 and you have not mentioned them as apostles.

This specific type of apostle is not present in the church today. The qualifications of this type of apostle were and I list them again for you:

(1) ......to have been an witness of the resurrected Christ:
1 Corth. 9:1....(ESV)
"Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?"

(2)...... to have been explicitly chosen by the Holy Spirit and
Acts 9:15
"But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.

(3) .......to have the ability to perform signs and wonders: ; 2 Corinthians 12:12).
Acts 2:43
"And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles."

2 Corth. 12:12
"The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

Now, do we ignore these clear directions on the qualifications of apostles and prophets ? Do we rear these verses out of the Bible and throw them away as you suggested or do we read them, pray over them and allow them to speak to us???

 

[ixoye_8]

Sent ones, that is the actually Greek Word. To say there are no more Apostolos is to say there are no more sent out.

that is correct ..
ἀποστέλλω apostellō = to send (verb)
ἀπόστολος apostolos = sent one (noun)
which equates to an emissary or messenger ..

also correct .. the Gospel was proclaimed and established and "handed down" already ..
a done deal .. only to repeat what was "handed down" to us is left to do ..

 

[ixoye_8]

Michael .. the whole idea being expressed, is Jesus picked these himself ..
He Himself taught them ..

HENCE why the distinction and honor is reserved of this title to the 12 alone ..
(first hand vs secondhand)
Barnabas etc were taught by these 12 ..

 

[Major]

Right. I already showed you those called Apostles who were not the foundation of the 12. I Showed you they are sent to start works. I Showed you they are given as gifts in office ministries to help perfect the saints. No Apostles then there must not be any Pastor's.

You talked a whole lot about those that call themselves Apostles and you seem to be put off by some folks. I am not sure what fake Apostles or real ones have to do with scriptures, but it seemed to weigh in on you for some reason.

I am not sure why we don't agree. I agree there is no new Word going out today. I don't agree that God just wiped out a ministry office to send out those called to start works. I don't even have a scripture that says that. That is what I am confused about.

If thee are no more Apostles, then there can't be any Pastors or teachers. They were listed together and no mention of God changing his mind about it.


ixoye tried to pull this (Should have been translated to Messenger) I mean it gets pretty sad talking to some believers about things when they think the Holy Spirit got confused and used the wrong Greek Word.

And He sat some Apostles, Prophets, Pastors.......................... That is God giving a calling to do something. All of those can give messages. See what I deal with here? If there were only 12 Apostles mentioned then I would be in the boat with you. But when the Holy Spirit sets Barnabas as an Apostle that was not part of the 12 then I can only scratch my head at what you all are reading here.

I don't know. It's fine Major.

My dear brother.....I am going to say something to you in a way of correction but which is rooted in love for you. I hope that you will receive it as coming from some one who has been in the Christian ministry for 50 years, educated in one secular university and one seminary. Anyway, that was for what it is worth and that is probably not much anymore these days.

However, I have noticed from the very first day you came here that you presume that YOU are completely correct and everyone else is wrong. You do not seem to have an ability to listen, contemplate, think about, pray over and learn from others. I am not speaking just about me but I have seen it vented toward others as well.

NO one is ever going to agree with everything you say. It is impossible happen. The key to this is to know HOW to respond when the conversation does not go the way you wanted it to go.

Example:
ixoye tried to pull this (Should have been translated to Messenger) I mean it gets pretty sad talking to some believers about things when they think the Holy Spirit got confused and used the wrong Greek Word.

Don't you think that is a little on the aggressive side of communication with others? Would you want another Christian to say that to you? Don't you see that you are placing yourself above the opinions of others and in fact insulting someone else's thoughts?
Doesn't the Bible you keep telling me about, teach HUMILITY and understanding in it?

You said......
"See what I deal with here? If there were only 12 Apostles mentioned then I would be in the boat with you. But when the Holy Spirit sets Barnabas as an Apostle that was not part of the 12 then I can only scratch my head at what you all are reading here".

I have tried to explain that to you but again, you do not seem able to grasp what I said. I hope you understand what I am saying. I think and have already told you that I admire your abilities and I want you to hang around here for a long time. But if you become contentious and confrontational it has the ability to cause anger and then you will feel like you are not needed and what is the use. That is what I am trying to keep from happening to you.

If this makes you angry, I apologize now for that and you can ignore every thing I just said.

 

[Major]

Michael .. the whole idea being expressed, is Jesus picked these himself ..
He himself taught them ..

HENCE why the distinction and honor is reserved of this title to the 12 alone ..
(first hand vs secondhand)
Barnabas etc were taught by these 12 ..

Agreed!

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

No problem with me mate. We all agree that we will all disagree at one time or another. I guess this is one of those times.
You said........
"I'm sorry that you don't see the need in the Church for the Ministry of the Lord".
I do not know what that means my brother? I never said such a thing or even suggested it. What ministry are you referring to?
Prophet/apostle. because you just agreed that those two were temporary.
Today we need men who can and will teach, pastor and be soul winners from what what we have as our guide lines in the Scriptures.

_____________________________

Beloved, you are trying to make me say that I agree with you that we don't need apostles or prophets. I said that if the Ministry of evangelist, pastor and teacher are temporary, so also are the apostle and prophets. I can see that you are very astute: but it is not by the Spirit of the Lord. It is the denominational spirit.

 

[ixoye_8]

Example:
ixoye tried to pull this (Should have been translated to Messenger) I mean it gets pretty sad talking to some believers about things when they think the Holy Spirit got confused and used the wrong Greek Word.

the confusion is yours ..
I thought I made myself clear ..
I said "Should have been translated" (not "should have been written") ..
there was NOTHING wrong with the way it was wrote in the Greek
the "translators" are the ones who putting it into English, should have done it correctly

example: WHY would they transliterate the same word as Apostle ..
and translate the same word as messenger in different verses using the same context ???

Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

that is poor translating .. they picked and chose where to translate it and where to only transliterate it ..
AS THEY WANTED instead of BY CONTEXT ..

 

[MichaelH]

\

I have tried to explain that to you but again, you do not seem able to grasp what I said. I hope you understand what I am saying. I think and have already told you that I admire your abilities and I want you to hang around here for a long time. But if you become contentious and confrontational it has the ability to cause anger and then you will feel like you are not needed and what is the use. That is what I am trying to keep from happening to you.

If this makes you angry, I apologize now for that and you can ignore every thing I just said.

I think I am trying to understand how two very important positions dropped off the face of the planet when the others are here. No mention in scripture about that.

You say you are on the word and I am in some denomination but I feel its the other way around.

I personally don't know any Apostles, but I see them in the Word.
Just because I don't know any, have seen any, does not mean I don't believe.

Just because my body does not feel healed does not mean I am not healed.

Just because i don't feel saved one day, does not mean I am not saved.

I tithe but just because I still have room to receive

Michael .. the whole idea being expressed, is Jesus picked these himself ..
He Himself taught them ..

HENCE why the distinction and honor is reserved of this title to the 12 alone ..
(first hand vs secondhand)
Barnabas etc were taught by these 12 ..

Be honest with you brother, you want a bit to far for me changing a Greek word to what you wanted when it's still the same Office and Greek Word. The Holy Spirit would have used a different Word If the Holy Spirit Meant that.

Barnabus was set apart and called into the Office of an Apostle...... Not messenger. Any office can give messages. You and I can give messages but that don't make use anything or even a Pastor.

Just a bit to much moving around and shifting for me. Not ignoring you but try a different approach besides getting the Greek and messing around.



does not mean what God said is not true.

I believe what i read, not what I see.

blessings.

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

_____________________________

I have second thoughts...not about the gospel or the doctrine of the apostles and prophets. But I want to apologize to anybody (and everybody) I have offended.
I did not begin my salvation with any premise, because I did not receive the gospel that saves from any denomination. I believe that most churches that profess the Lord as the Son of God and Savior have a little truth...not all truth. The Truth of the gospel is being sectionalized and fragmented into denominations. Everyone seems to be speaking from their premise: this makes us (believers) just as guilty as those who deny God and begin to "theorize" about creation. We find a piece of bone, declare that it must be this or that, and we go about trying to "prove" it.

 

[ixoye_8]

Be honest with you brother, you want a bit to far for me changing a Greek word to what you wanted when it's still the same Office and Greek Word.

to be honest .. I NOTICED the translator doing that and commented they did it not by context .. so don't blame me for CATCHING the translators on what you have an issue about .. they did it .. I caught it .. I corrected their inconsistency ..

example:
Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

that is poor translating .. they picked and chose where to translate it and where to only transliterate it ..
AS THEY WANTED instead of BY CONTEXT ..

 

[Major]

_____________________________

Beloved, you are trying to make me say that I agree with you that we don't need apostles or prophets. I said that if the Ministry of evangelist, pastor and teacher are temporary, so also are the apostle and prophets. I can see that you are very astute: but it is not by the Spirit of the Lord. It is the denominational spirit.

No, that is not the case a all. I quoted what you said, but I did not follow what you were referring to. All I did was ask. From that you have determined that to be a denominational position??????

You said.....
"I'm sorry that you do not see the need in the church for the ministry of the Lord".

I still do not know what that means. I was not and am not trying to make you agree with me.
I just asked what the heck you meant by the comment.
You still have not answered my question.

Then my brother, are you saying that because I do not agree with you that I am in some way against the Holy Spirit. Do you not see a problem with that kind of comment?
What if I said that about you? Would you be angry and shout something back at me.???

And which denomination would you say that would be my brother.

And, IF the denominational position is in line with the Biblical position, what would then be the concern???

 

[MichaelH]

to be honest .. I NOTICED the translator doing that and commented they did it not by context .. so don't blame me for CATCHING the translators on what you have an issue about .. they did it .. I caught it .. I corrected their inconsistency ..

example:
Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

that is poor translating .. they picked and chose where to translate it and where to only transliterate it ..
AS THEY WANTED instead of BY CONTEXT ..

I am not blaming you Brother. As long as you caught them, all good with me. If Apostle was not a Greek Word even then I might have at least thought about it, but we pronounce it just like it's written or the English version of the Greek.

There are some words that could use a bit better English word. Apostle is still Greek though, so how those translators get around that?

I am good.

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

No, that is not the case a all. I quoted what you said, but I did not follow what you were referring to. All I did was ask. From that you have determined that to be a denominational position??????

And which one would you say that would be my brother. And, IF the denomination position is in line with the Biblical position, what would then be the concern???

Beloved, I cannot believe that you are deliberately twisting scripture or trying to misquote me.
I did not begin my salvation with any premise, because I did not receive the gospel that saves from any denomination. I believe that most churches that profess the Lord as the Son of God and Savior have some truth...but not all truth. The Truth of the gospel has being sectionalized and fragmented into denominations. Everyone seems to be speaking from their premise: this makes us (believers) just as guilty as those who deny God and begin to "theorize" about creation. The evolutionists find a piece of bone, declare that it must be this or that, and then they go about trying to "prove" their theory.
But each of us is responsible for their own salvation. You believe in the Lord Jesus, you do well. Enjoy your walk.

 

[vengaturreino]

I think it's fascinating and encouraging to see how much debate has stemmed from this topic.

I would like to clarify that I am not against church or denominations per se, but "Religion", a word I use in this context to express the groups and leaders who have strayed from Christ's teaching of selfless love and have transformed areas of worship into opportunities for financial gain and control over others.

 

[Major]

Beloved, I cannot believe that you are deliberately twisting scripture or trying to misquote me.
I did not begin my salvation with any premise, because I did not receive the gospel that saves from any denomination. I believe that most churches that profess the Lord as the Son of God and Savior have some truth...but not all truth. The Truth of the gospel has being sectionalized and fragmented into denominations. Everyone seems to be speaking from their premise: this makes us (believers) just as guilty as those who deny God and begin to "theorize" about creation. The evolutionists find a piece of bone, declare that it must be this or that, and then they go about trying to "prove" their theory.
But each of us is responsible for their own salvation. You believe in the Lord Jesus, you do well. Enjoy your walk.

Even though I posted YOUR EXACT words twice, you still contend that I deliberately twisted Scripture in order to misquote you????

How can someone's exact words be twisted deliberately? All I did was ask you a question to clarify and posted YOUR words to show what I did not understand. Now you accuse me of deliberately twisting Scripture when it was YOUR WORDS.

I believe on that note I will move on. This has become a little to stressful for an old man like me.

Unbelievable!!!

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

I am not blaming you Brother. As long as you caught them, all good with me. If Apostle was not a Greek Word even then I might have at least thought about it, but we pronounce it just like it's written or the English version of the Greek.

There are some words that could use a bit better English word. Apostle is still Greek though, so how those translators get around that?

I am good.

__________________________________

Maybe the translators chose the right translation, which is messenger, because that is what Epaphroditus was: just a messenger from Paul! "I (Paul) have sent you...". Sounds like Paul's messenger, and not the Lord's apostle.

 

[Candelario Mario Villa]

Even though I posted YOUR EXACT words twice, you still contend that I deliberately twisted Scripture in order to misquote you????

How can someone's exact words be twisted deliberately? All I did was ask you a question to clarify and posted YOUR words to show what I did not understand. Now you accuse me of deliberately twisting Scripture when it was YOUR WORDS.

I believe on that note I will move on. This has become a little to stressful for an old man like me.

Unbelievable!!![/quot

Even though I posted YOUR EXACT words twice, you still contend that I deliberately twisted Scripture in order to misquote you????

How can someone's exact words be twisted deliberately? All I did was ask you a question to clarify and posted YOUR words to show what I did not understand. Now you accuse me of deliberately twisting Scripture when it was YOUR WORDS.

I believe on that note I will move on. This has become a little to stressful for an old man like me.

Unbelievable!!!

Even though I posted YOUR EXACT words twice, you still contend that I deliberately twisted Scripture in order to misquote you????

How can someone's exact words be twisted deliberately? All I did was ask you a question to clarify and posted YOUR words to show what I did not understand. Now you accuse me of deliberately twisting Scripture when it was YOUR WORDS.

I believe on that note I will move on. This has become a little to stressful for an old man like me.

Unbelievable!!!

_____________________________

Beloved, I wrote that I could not believe that you deliberately twist my words. Therefore, to me, there must be another explanation that I am missing.
I believe there are some here on the forum that would try to mislead the believers: you are not one of them.
(Don't Ask: Don't Tell)